Has anybody necked down the 50-110 to a 45-110?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill73:
Has anybody necked down the 50-110 to 45-110?

Yes, a shortened version is called the 450 Alaskan. Then there are also the 45-90 and 45-120. Which give the same performance with smokeless in a bit different case.

I believe the 450 is made from the 348 Winchester, (which has the same rim and case diameter as the 50-110.
There is a 45-110; a straight case 2 7/8ths long. Not for lever actions.
So, if you wanted to just neck down a 50-110, you would have a cartridge with such a large powder capacity can't be handled in any lever action.
As for the 45-90 (and the 90 designation is a Winchester cartridge with a 300 grain bullet only) In a Sharps it would be a 45 2 4/10ths. (2.4 inch case); that works in a Mod 86, but the 3.25 inch 45-120 case, not in lever actions.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I believe the 450 is made from the 348 Winchester, (which has the same rim and case diameter as the 50-110.
There is a 45-110; a straight case 2 7/8ths long. Not for lever actions.
So, if you wanted to just neck down a 50-110, you would have a cartridge with such a large powder capacity can't be handled in any lever action.
As for the 45-90 (and the 90 designation is a Winchester cartridge with a 300 grain bullet only) In a Sharps it would be a 45 2 4/10ths. (2.4 inch case); that works in a Mod 86, but the 3.25 inch 45-120 case, not in lever actions.

The 450 is made from the 348 and the 348 case is a shortened necked down 50-110. I have used starline 50-110 cases to make both 348 and 450 alaskan cases. Also correct, the 45- 120 wont run in an 86, but would be about the same performance give or take 100 to 150 fps. In my particular 86 in 45-90, 385grain cast and 405 grain jacketed shoot just fine. Never tried 500' s so cant say about them. I am guessing it varys gun to gun on how they shoot.

Thanks for the replies,I am aware of the different wild cats on the 348 win case,I have 2 x 450 Alaskans,416/348, & the 475 Turnbull,my favorite caliber in the Sharps was the 45-110,& yes it is too long for a lever,all the wildcats seem to be shorter in length than a full length 50-110,I was just playing with the idea of having a full length 50-110 case necked down to .45 to increase case capacity,the 50 -110 is 2.4"& so is the 45-90 @ 2.4",it works just fine in my 1886,my 450 Alaskan cases measure out at about 90 gr h2o,the 50-110 case is supposedly 108 gr h2o,even after necking it down it would probably be ahead of the 450 Alaskan for case capacity?

quote:

Then there are also the 45-90 and 45-120. Which give the same performance with smokeless in a bit different case.

As stated above, the .45-90 WCF can be loaded with smokeless powder to achieve DG level performance with no need for the longer brass.
My 1886 .45-90 DG loads of 450 grain bullets have a MV of 2150 fps and can and have taken ele, buff, etc.
So, if you just want performance, the '90 will do it.
If you are just tinkering, tinker away and enjoy!!

The issue is not if it will work or not; but that the powder capacity is more than can be used in a lever action. Pressure will peak out before all that powder can be efficiently used. As stated, the 45-90 is more efficient.
Another note, the original 45-90 WCF is for 300 grain bullets and the rifles have very slow twists for them.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
The issue is not if it will work or not; but that the powder capacity is more than can be used in a lever action. Pressure will peak out before all that powder can be efficiently used. As stated, the 45-90 is more efficient.
Another note, the original 45-90 WCF is for 300 grain bullets and the rifles have very slow twists for them.

dpcd,
I don't understand,the 50-110 is already loaded by a few like Buffalo Bore & Grizzly,but you are saying the powder charge is too big to be used in a lever action? Lots of people are already shooting this in a lever action as a fifty caliber,the right length the right powder & reload till you find what works right?

Bore to powder capacity ratio is what is important; a straight case burns powder totally differently than a bottle necked one. Point is, you can't take advantage of the extra powder capacity (over a 45-90), at the pressures allowed in lever actions. Won't gain much velocity, if any.
It's not the capacity, per se, it is the expansion ratio and the fact that you can't run it at 55K psi. Now, you can have the same ballistics as a 45-90, and burn more powder, and have lower pressures. That's how the old British double rifle cartridges work.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Thanks for the replies,I am aware of the different wild cats on the 348 win case,I have 2 x 450 Alaskans,416/348, & the 475 Turnbull,my favorite caliber in the Sharps was the 45-110,& yes it is too long for a lever,all the wildcats seem to be shorter in length than a full length 50-110,I was just playing with the idea of having a full length 50-110 case necked down to .45 to increase case capacity,the 50 -110 is 2.4"& so is the 45-90 @ 2.4",it works just fine in my 1886,my 450 Alaskan cases measure out at about 90 gr h2o,the 50-110 case is supposedly 108 gr h2o,even after necking it down it would probably be ahead of the 450 Alaskan for case capacity?

When you start pushing the high end velocities in 45 and 50 calibers, my shoulder gives out before the loading max pressure signs do. I can get over 2100fps in a 50 alaskan or 50-110 with a 535 grain woodleigh but it is much more comfortable at 1800 fps and still kills what you shoot if you hit the right spot.

But; do not let any of this practical stuff deter anyone from pursuing a rifle for this caliber. I have a reamer I designed for it, actually. A 50-110 necked down to 45. But as I said, using that much more smokeless powder won't gain much if anything.
Another historical note; the 50-110 was designed as an "Express" cartridge, for 300 grain bullets and a slow twist. (As was the 45-90) So, when you load them with heavy bullets, it is no longer a 50-110. You know what I mean. ..

I have a 30" NEF Buffalo Hunter SS that started life as a 32" 45-70, went to a 45-90 and finally a 45-120 and lost 2 inches to a MB...Norma case is 3.25" long, ~130 gr H20 which makes it very close to a 450 Rigby. The loaded round at 4.32" with a 720 gr slug is so long there isn't any bolt receiver that will handle it(I think). The recoil with a full load of powder and that HUGE slug is impressive to say the least...neat 90 ft lbs with my 11# gun without the MB and near 70 with the MB(calculated)...1900 fs plus and almost 6000 ft lb of energy puts this in the "BIG Doggy" category for certain.

Even with lighter 500 +/- 50 gr bullets the velocity increase still puts out 5500 to 6000 ft lbs but reduces the recoil about 25%.

I's a HUGE case just like all the other biggies and what you can get out of it depends on how your reload it. Yes, it's not very efficient, just like the "others" but with todays slower burning powders you can pick and chose bullet weights, powder weight and velocities to fit your pistol.

It's NOT fun tossing those heavies at near 2000 fs at paper, rocks or cans, but at game you don't feel it so much. 300-500 gr bullets and a heavy rifle make those "fun" activities take on a different color.

AND I can still shoot those "pip squeak" 400 gr 45-70 factory loads one handed....hahahahahaha, NOT.

It's all in HOW you do it just like the "little fellows".



Good Hunting

You are a brave soul, my shoulder throbs at the thought!

dpcd - with a 450 Alaskan and loading it to 2.8", in real terms a full length 50/110 necked to 458 probably wouldn't add much capacity would be my thinking.

However with the full length 50/110 case you could incorporate a longer neck and design the cartridge to be more suited to heavier cast bullets.

Do you have pic of the chamber you designed ?

I built a single shot 50-120 loaded with smokeless...fired a total of six rounds recoil was horrendous ....sold it to a local guy who took it for bison, killed one and gave it to the ranch owner. He loans it out to clients.

JFE, good points; and true; yes, PM me your e mail address and I will send you pics of my 450 based on the 50-110.

Here are some numbers for you guys; I actually forgot I had got this T shirt about ten years ago. I designed my reamer to form a 45 caliber cartridge from 50-110 brass. Using a 45-75 standard die, which Lee used to make as a standard. So no $300 custom die set.
The die easily forms the neck and shoulder and sized most of the base; with black powder, FL sizing is not needed.
The case holds 80 grains of 4320 to a bullet seated at .550. In comparison, a 45-90 holds 64 grains of 4320 with a bullet seated the same. Of course, more powder can be installed when bullets are seated more shallowly.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Here are some numbers for you guys; I actually forgot I had got this T shirt about ten years ago. I designed my reamer to form a 45 caliber cartridge from 50-110 brass. Using a 45-75 standard die, which Lee used to make as a standard. So no $300 custom die set.
The die easily forms the neck and shoulder and sized most of the base; with black powder, FL sizing is not needed.
The case holds 80 grains of 4320 to a bullet seated at .550. In comparison, a 45-90 holds 64 grains of 4320 with a bullet seated the same. Of course, more powder can be installed when bullets are seated more shallowly.

dpcd,
interesting numbers,what is the length of the case? a popular load for the 450 Alaskan is 67 gr of 3031,what is the case capacity in h2o of your case?

Full length 50-110; 2.4 inches. Water, IDK. I will weigh some later.

The original 1886 could take the 45-90 WCF as it had a shell length adapter internal design, that was not incorporated in the Model 71. I have two pre-war Model 71s that are chambered in 450 Alaskan and 450 Fuller. Both of these wildcats will keep up easily and surpass a 45-90. Ackley's version creates too much recoil which loosened actions. There is a 50 Alaskan, similar to the 50-110-my experience found it less accurate than the 450s.

Those that regularly carry a Model 71 or an original 86 have probably the most ideal slick action rifles. Some Alaskans have recently run a test with Winchester M-71s against bolt action rifles for speed-reliability-and shots on targets. They exchanged rifles: in both cases, the John Browning designed-from the 1886 derivitive Model 71 outhandled-outshot for accuracy-and was faster on target with repeat shots. Pretty interesting for a 60-80 yr old rifle, depending on serial number.
This testing occurred in Alaska-this year. Its important to those in Alaska-Canada in that its not just a drill. Fast, powerful lever actions like the Model 71 can save your life along the bear-salmon streams or muskeg bush. I know-having
Alaska homestead land.

Water capacity of my 450 on the 50-110 case is 105.5 grains of cold water.
I sent JFE pictures of it.
Keep in mind that those BP cartridge designations were with compressed black powder and a shallowly seated bullet, and in the case of the -09 and -110, a 300 grain bullet in both calibers. They were designed as Express cartridges, not heavy bullet buffalo killers.

450 FULLER
Will you please provide detail to explain your statement
"Both of these wildcats will keep up easily and surpass a 45-90."

I am interested in such details as bullet weight, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, etc.
Thank you.
CRS

Harold Johnson, then of Cooper Landing, AK with Bill
Fuller developed the 450 Alaskan/Fuller. In the early 1950s, 45-90 brass was not readily available. Johnson
had some close calls with bears-so necessity became the mother of invention.

I use 400 gr FP lead Oregon Trail; Jacketed 400 gr
FP Hawk and Alaska Bullet Works 400 gr bonded core bullets. The lead bullets are used for fire forming. An incomplete formed case before forming
closely resembles a 45-90 case. My velocities with 3031 and 4198, and finally RL 7 have reached 2100 FPS at 41,085 psi/not CUP. One must be very careful developing usable loadings in a lever action. The 45-90 can run close to 1975 fps, but
one must know the rifle. Pressure signs are not
as easy to read and the Winchester Model 71 is limited to about 44,000 in its action.
Normal use jacketed 400gr FP loading with 3031
reached 2050 FPS with pressure at 40,280. PACT chronograph.

PO Ackley covered these conversion calibers in his Vol 1, including his own 458/348 straight taper
version. That caliber by Ackley will exceed the 450 Alaskan, but the recoil requires modifying the
the rifle forend/magazine tube extension.
His caliber is the maximum obtainable, IMHO-with this case due to interior volume expansion and
case capacity.
To PO Ackley's credit, he felt that the Alaskan/Fuller wildcats were better cartridge versions due to their feeding more reliably
in Browning's design of the 86/Model 71 Winchesters. Johnson did the original and he preferred the nickel steel 86 action as the recoil lugs were flat ground with no taper.
Again-every rifle is a law unto itself, and the Alaskan-Canadian guides and hunters who carry
these lever action 450s must depend on reliability. Hence, the working velocities of the 400 gr bullets remain on the front side of 2000 FPS. The 450 Alaskan/Fuller designs are slight bottleneck cartridges.The Fuller as I own has
a shoulder angle of less than 16 degrees and will feed excellently through a Model 71 pre-war action. Most bears will not tell the difference
with 75-100 FPS, but the guide will know if his rifle fails to function. Neither the 450 Alaskan nor 450 Fuller that I own have failed to feed or fire.
Winchester made first rate reliable rifles in the 1930s. Not just to shoot, but to hunt dangerous game animals with.

Lt Col HRM

NRA Life Member
Special Forces Assn-Life
Special Opns Assn-Life
Khe Sanh-1971

Thank you for the detailed answer and for your time in preparing it. I agree that your rifles are quite potent and well above the original .45-90 300 grain power level.

In our Miroku 1886.45-90 bullet teats we have pushed 300 grain bullets to 2600 fps and a friend has gone to 2800 fps within safe pressure limits. On the other hand, one 300 grain loading at 2200 fps with the wrong powder stuck the action for a bit and those bullets were pulled.
Our top DG loads for buffalo are Alaska bulletworks Kodiak 450 grain FMJ at 2150 fps from the 26 inch octagon barrel. These have also put an ele to its knees. Our best ele loads use North fork 450 grain FPS and 430 grain brass bullets with lead filled bases at over 2000 fps which always shoot through the skull with a frontal brain shot; all good stuff for thick skinned DG.
My favorite thin skinned game and leopard load is the 300 grain Nosler Protected Point at 2200 fps MV. A devastating load.

The Miroku 1886 rifles are indeed strongly built
and will allow high pressure/velocity load development.
We both will agree that Karl at Alaska Bullets
makes a fine bonded core bullet. Have you experienced
any work with the North Fork bullets of Oregon?
Unusual, but the results are first rate. Ray Atkinson and I are both pleased with their performance.

I had for a brief time a rapid taper 1886 half magazine Miroku 45-70. It was an interesting rifle with but two
major flaws: a rebounding hammer and an unnecessary tang safety. These features obviate
my use. I can only hope that your rifles do not
have those features.

Alaska guides like Shoemaker and Stevenson use their early-mid 80s Browning version M71-1895s that did not have the lawyer safeties.
ANY additional unnecessary features that interfere
with the original function of the John Browning design are to be shunned.
The reason being that these modifications can and will get you killed. Removing or altering the rifle will allow function, but it should never have been there in the first place-alters the trigger-hammer geometry-and
in my case leaves a suspicion about reliability.
That will do at the range-but never in the
Alaskan bush. I have an early Lyman receiver 56
receiver sight backed up by a Marbles 95 folding rear semi- buckhorn sight. If something happens, I have a backup.

I guess its what you really feel comfortable with-a rifle that goes "click" or that will not fire-for any reason......when it's needed.....


HRM

Yes, in my 1895 .405 I have used all three variants of the 300 grain NF and found them accurate and deadly. Biggest critters were a bull and a cow water buffalo. My story on shooting the old cow with the CPS is on the NF web site.

In my 1886, they have taken some cape buff.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Water capacity of my 450 on the 50-110 case is 105.5 grains of cold water.
I sent JFE pictures of it.
Keep in mind that those BP cartridge designations were with compressed black powder and a shallowly seated bullet, and in the case of the -09 and -110, a 300 grain bullet in both calibers. They were designed as Express cartridges, not heavy bullet buffalo killers.

Did you actually build any guns with this chamber? results?

For the 1895 shooters out there,has a 45 caliber conversion been done on one of these guns? what is the max length that the magazine can take?

I found the 45-90 to be a well balanced caliber and head and shoulder above the 45-70..I used it with the 350 gr. Horneady bullet with great success on elk in the timber some years ago..I would hunt buffalo with it for sure but Id use solids. A magazine full of 400 gr. solids at 2000 FPS or better, and you would be well armed even in a herd!!