Any views as to how popular the 450 Marlin is and how well it is selling ?

Is this going to be another one of those cartridges that will fade away over time or is there enough interest to sustain the production factory ammo ?

Joe

From what I've read it seems Marlin created a wonderful solution to a nonexistant problem.
Jim

I like mine.....all 3 of them. I have a Marlin 1895M, a BLR and a custom bolt. Hornady now has 2 different offerings and Buffalo Bore has 2 as well. I've carried it for everything from deer to brown bear and even took a nice kudu with the bolt last fall in Namibia. With over a thousand cases on hand I'm not worried even if factory production ceases.

It´s after mine .45-70, my second favourite lever action round. I have a Marlin with the 18,5" barrel and I mean its the handiest rifle I ever shoot. This week I changed my scope from an old Zeiss/Jena 4x to a Leupold VX-III 3,5-10x50 with German #1 reticle. I would to to enlarge the practical range for shooting at 100m and more. This weekend I will test it.

This is a 4-shoot-group, loaded with 55grs Norma N200 behind a 300grs HP from Hornady at 50 meter (Fired with the 4x scope).

Martin

Thanks for the posts.

Appreciate it is a essentially a souped 45-70 loading for those that dont reload.

I may consider one in a bolt and this would be much easier than 45-70. One of my concerns is brass availability into the future (as well potential re-sale down the road).

akpls - what sort of performance are you able to get out of your bolt & BLR ? Can you share your findings, bbl length and other pertinent deets. I would imagine a lot better with a longer OAL.

Joe

I can not give you velocities I put together a
450 on a FN mauser with a MRC barrel 22" long.
The best part of using a bolt gun is that you can use longer bullets and pointed bullets.I use 350gr barnes XFB and shoot 1-1.5" 100yrd
groups.I am thinking about taking it on my next African hunt if my wife lets me go again.
Dave

My bolt was built by Clark Custom on a Ruger 77 action with a 22" Shilen barrel, laminated stock, etc. The 450M cartridge feeds real slick through the bolt action. I loaded up some 300 gr. Barnes XFB's with 55 gr. of H322 and a COL of 2.795". I've yet to get it chronoed, but accuracy is pretty good. Using the Hornady factory load there is a noticeable difference in trajectory when comparing to my Marlin Guide Gun with its shorter barrel. In theory I should also be able to use the pointy bullets in the BLR, but COL is limited by the magazine length. The standard factory rounds fit real snug in the magazine and there's no room to spare to if you wanted to go longer. I have also been trying out the new Hornady LeverEvolution 325's out of my Marlin, but I'm a bit disappointed with the accuracy. About 3 to 4" groups is all I've been able to manage so far with those whereas the standard 350's will shoot one big hole all day long. I just scoped the BLR this week and plan to give it a workout this weekend so I'll be able give you a report later on it.

quote:

From what I've read it seems Marlin created a wonderful solution to a nonexistant problem.

Maybe this is not a problem in the US and elsewhere, but here in Germany and some other European countries it is illegal to load cartridges to higher than SAAMI /CIP pressure levels. Doing so, you may loose your privileges to own guns.

That's why the .45/70 is almost meaningless as a hunting cartridge and ranks behind the .444 in popularity (at least in Germany).

For me, the .450 Marlin is the perfect answer to a serious problem!

---
Tom

Tested the .450Marlin with reloaded 300grs HP and 350grs FP factory ammunition at 100m. The groups are between 1,5" and 2". I mean it´s enough for an 18,5" barrel.

Martin

Actually the .444 is another dud. The bullets are too light. If it had been configured for heavier bullets there would have been no reason for the .450 Marlin.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Actually the .444 is another dud. The bullets are too light. If it had been configured for heavier bullets there would have been no reason for the .450 Marlin.

So does that mean there is no reason for the .444? I guess there is no reason for a 30-30 then by that logic.

Hi all, I have problem, but, please, don't make fun of me. I have a 450 Marlin with the 18.5 inch barrel. So far I have only used the Hornady factory loads, and the gun is very, very accurate up to 100 meters. It has taken two black bears in Canada so far with a single round each and hardly no running (15 yards). I now want to reload and I want to use a 350 grain bullet. I would also like to use an IMR powder, as I have many varieties already available, if possible. Here I go: which bullets do I buy? Do I buy the .452 or the .458 caliber for the Marlin???? They did not know at Cabelas (the store in PA) or at Gander Mountain (in Utica NY) which one to use. Both suggested factory ammo. Secondly, does anyone have any suggestions with the loads???? Powder and grains???

I am not new to reloading and I reload for other calibers, such as the 30-06 and for the .338 and the .270 The 450 is my new toy, and I love it. There is very little information out there. Any help is appreciated.

Marianne

Marianne, the 450 Marlin is a 45 caliber round accepting nominal .458 jacketed bullets. To duplicate the 450 Marlin factory round purchase .458" Hornady 350 grain Flat Nose bullets. Using an IMR powder I would suggest IMR4198 powder with a starting load of 40.5 grains working up carefully to a maximum charge of 45 grains. Cartridge overall length is 2.55" using Hornady brass and Federal 210 primers. Source: IMR

A better load for the 450 Marlin is:
Marlin 1895M, MR, or MXLR
350 grain Hornady FP seated to 2.53" COL
Hornady brass, 2.09" trim
Winchester LR primer
53 grains H322 start
58 grains compressed H322 maximum
Source: Hodgdon

Jackfish,

Thanks a million!!!!

Marianne

Tom Hunter , what ever happened to the 45 Blaser ? If that's available in Germany why bother with the 450 Marlin ?.

The 45. Blaser never proved popular in Germany. The problem is that there is only one gun and a one interchangeable barrel available that is chambered for this cartridge. The Blaser R93 Semiweight. is a very expensive gun ($ 2.500.-) and the barrel alone costs a much as a brand new Marlin. The price for a .45 Blaser cartridge is almost $ 7.- Most guns shops do not have the 45 Blaser in stock, many have never heard about this calibre. So why bother with the 45 Blaser?


---
Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Actually the .444 is another dud. The bullets are too light. If it had been configured for heavier bullets there would have been no reason for the .450 Marlin.

So does that mean there is no reason for the .444? I guess there is no reason for a 30-30 then by that logic.

NF you obviously did not understand the comment.
The .444 was designed to use light for the caliber bullets originally designed for the .44 Mag. If it had been designed to use heavier bullets with a faster rifling twist the .450 Marlin would not have been needed because the .444 would have filled that role.

The 444 originally had twist suitable for light bullets and they used a 44 revolver bullet .This driven at the much higher velocities broke up on game ! A tighter twist and heavier bullets that were constructed better made the round more viable. It's still not a 45-70 !!

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
The 444 originally had twist suitable for light bullets and they used a 44 revolver bullet .This driven at the much higher velocities broke up on game ! A tighter twist and heavier bullets that were constructed better made the round more viable. It's still not a 45-70 !!

It would have been if you are talking about factory ammo. The 45/70 in factory the widely distributed brands is loaded to suit Trapdoor pressure.
I am not downing the 45/70 ..just comparing it to what the .444 should have been. The .444 operates at much higher pressure than factory 45/70 loads.

quote:

----Maybe this is not a problem in the US and elsewhere, but here in Germany and some other European countries it is illegal to load cartridges to higher than SAAMI /CIP pressure levels. Doing so, you may loose your privileges to own guns.---

A bit off-topic: how can you certainly know that you are not loading too hot and thus exceeding the legal limits? Guns are individuals in that sense, that you get different pressures from the identical load in different guns. Or must you only use load that you have had tested at the DEVA Proofhouses?

Fritz

quote:

Or must you only use load that you have had tested at the DEVA Proofhouses?

No it's Ok to use reloading data from a manual, if it is specified that this load does not exceed CIP pressure levels i.e. 28.000 psi for the .45-70.

Loads that are said to exceed this level must not be used.

---
Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Hunter:

quote:

Or must you only use load that you have had tested at the DEVA Proofhouses?

No it's Ok to use reloading data from a manual, if it is specified that this load does not exceed CIP pressure levels i.e. 28.000 psi for the .45-70.

Loads that are said to exceed this level must not be used.

---
Tom

My Hornady manual lists 3 DIFFERENT guns for the 45-70:

Trapdoor loads at 25,000 CUP
Marlin Lever Action loads at 40,000 CUP
and Ruger #1 loads at 50,000 CUP

These last loads virtually duplicate the Marlin 450.

Hornady handbook of Cartridge Reloading Volume 1, Sixth Ed, pp 591-598

Go for it!

Today, get my ordered box of Hornady´s .450M Leverevolution. Will test it next weekend.


Martin

Sorry the CIP pressure standard for the 45-70 is 31,908 PSI not 28,000 PSI.

quote:

If it had been designed to use heavier bullets with a faster rifling twist the .450 Marlin would not have been needed because the .444 would have filled that role.

Just out of curiosity is a standard twist rate for a .444? Based on that comment it must be pretty slow because my .450 is 1 in 20. I know the bullets are different, but just curious.

Sometime in the late 1990s Marlin changed the 444 Marlin twist from 1 in 38" to 1 in 20". But the slower twist will still stabilize the majority of available bullets.

I could be wrong but I think that the slower-twist 444 Marlins have the microgroove rifling. The newer, faster-twist 444s have the Ballard rifling.

Landrum

Landrum, you are correct.

I've owned a Guide Gun in 450 for a few years now. I originally put a red dot scope on it, but switched to a Ghost Ring. Primarily, I got it for hog hunting here in Georgia. It’s become my rifle-of-choice when we put on deer drives on my Brother-in-law’s farm in Pennsylvania, especially when I’m a driver. It works very well for both but in these uses I can find no real difference between it and my Brother-in-law’s 45-70. I reload for both and am consistently amazed at their accuracy (450 – ghost ring, 45-70 6x-Leupold). Ballistic tables can tell the “tale-of-the-tape,†but in use for these two animals, they’re identical. If you reload, the 450 brass is usually more expensive and a bit harder to find. If not, I’ve found in the areas I frequent, the 45-70 ammo is easier to find. If I were doing it again, I’d go for a 45-70, but since I’ve already got the 450 and I’m totally satisfied with it, I’ll stay with it.

the 450 seems to be going strong to me. as far as 444marlin replacing 45-70 don't believe this was ever thought of the 450 is more of a replacement being able to load to full potential of the 45-70

the 45-70 will not be replaced it has a strong historic following

I think the .450 Marlin will continue to be popular with great staying potential. I have the .450 brush gun now for a year and shot two black bears with it in Canada; one at 75 yards and one at 45 yards. Both times the animal dropped on the spot. It is amazingly accurate up to 125 yards for the length of the barrel (16 inch). The hubby has a .444 Marlin with a standard barrel, but the .450 outperforms it every time at the range.

quote:

Originally posted by Marianne:
but the .450 outperforms it every time at the range.

Shhh... It just might be the shooter.

Last year my son bought a 450 marlin with a 22inch barrel. I started loading for it and found it to be a very easy round to load for. I liked it so much that I just bought a XLR in 450 Marlin. It will drop a hog… If it does not catch on then it is just a shame… It is a great round maybe not flashy but great.

I have a 444P, and it does not take a backseat to any round. Loaded with 300gr bullets, doing 2200fps, is nothing to sneeze at. This pic is 265gr LEVERevolution. 3 shots at 100yds using a VIII 1.5-5.

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
I have a 444P, and it does not take a backseat to any round. Loaded with 300gr bullets, doing 2200fps, is nothing to sneeze at....

Think the strongest market for the 450 is the non - handloader. Biggest drawback is lack of available ammo at the local country store. Would I own one? Hell yes - long as I could get my hands on some dies, & a couple hundred pieces of brass!

45/70 can be found most anywhere, but suitability of MOST factory ammo for truly big, or dangerous game, is questionable at best.

At the risk of straying a bit off original (450 Marlin) subject, I thought I'd include a few links to what most here should find some interesting reading:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/44

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

IanD, I suspect you have read this stuff before... ;=]

I recently got lucky & landed a 444P myself, off another forum. I'm currently waiting for my order of Beartooth 290LFN-GC to arrive. I am optimistic about the potential of this rifle.

I also own a Ruger #1-S in 45/70. It is a real sweetheart - & a shooter.

Of course as previously indicated, some folks feel - for whatever reason, that the 444 (& possibly the 450 as well)is a dud.

All three calibers have their strengths & weaknesses, & they all interest me a great deal. Of course I'm a big fan of big bores. I'm also (like most here, I'm sure) a handloader.

No better way to bring the best out of ANY big bore. Now if I could just quit obsessing over that #1-H in .405 Win.....