This may have been discussed ad nauseum, but I have not found the thread.

So, is the Marlin 1895 "Guide Gun" a 28,000 pound, CUP, rifle, or a 40,000 pound, CUP, rifle?

My 49th Lyman says its 28,000 pounds, but says the same rifle in .450 Marlin is a 40,000-pound rifle. BUT THERE AIN'T A DIMES WORTH OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE GUNS OR THE ROUNDS THEY FIRE!!!

What gives here?

I just checked Hodgdon's website, and they list 40,000 CUP loads for the 45-70 and say this,
"These data are intended for the 1895 lever action Marlin ONLY."

I don't have my Lyman manual in front of me right now, but they might be listing lever action data for Winchesters or other weaker lever actions.

No, they specifically mention the Marlin 1895 as being the same as the Winchester 45-70.

I bought one as a big bear gun in Alaska. Only reason I didn't buy the .450 is the shop was out of them, but I assumed that I could load the 45-70 to the same terminal ballistics as the .450.

In reality, I think I can, just that I hate it that one of my favorite manuals says I can't.

Here is an article by Paco on different levels of .45-70 loads and rifles; you should find this interesting and relevant.

http://www.leverguns.com/artic...o/4570_leverguns.htm

I've got two of the Guide Guns, IMHO they'll work fine for thin skinned game up to say bison.

I think the biggest mistake is to try to make it a .458 Winchester. Just use the mid range data from the different manufacturers sources. Mine will punch a 430gr cast lead bullet thru 4' of water at 50 yards. That's not too bad for a 150 year old cartridge.

I personally don't push the pressure envelope in my .45-70 (an NEF Handi). It kicks hard enough with mid range loads!

Your guide gun can handle the 40,000 CUP loads. Lots of people have used them in Marlin 1895s.

45-70 SAAMI specs are 28,000 but the Marlin will go 40,000 as the other Marlin lever guns are made to handle 40,000.
45-70 doesn't kill by velocity .It does very well for deer even with factory 300gr loaded to AFAIK to only 18,000 !! 40,000 loads are heavy on either end ! When loading note OAL as the Marlin can't feed a cartridge as long as other rifles do .
You could get a Ruger #1 of Browning 1885 - You don't need more than one shot anyway !

Don't know what the pressure is in my load for my Marlin 45-70, but it was listed as Elmer Keith's favorite elk load. 52 gr 3031, with a 405 gr bullet. Took half the heart out on a 6 pt whitetail a month ago, about 75 yds away. I do a Lee cast 20-1 (soft) bullet, hollow base, sized to .452, and paper patched with 9 lb "onionskin" typewriter paper, and waterproofed with Lee liquid alox.

GAHUNTER...apparently you didn't look to hard OR didn't use the correct questions...I punched 45-70 in Yahoo and Google and got over 11 MILLION hits...many of which lead me to discussion and explainations galore about both the 45-70, Marlin, SAAMI pressure descriptions for BOTH etc.

I did the same on this thread and on a couple of others...just to be sure the search function was working and would produce the information. I got pages and pages of comments everywhere I went...again...just by punching in "45-70" and "Marlin".

This subject has been run over by trucks, bus's, tanks, aircraft carriers and by just about EVERYONE who ever bought a new/used 45-70 OR a Marlin rifle...

NO FLAME OR DISS INTENDED...all the information you seek to understand is readily available...in most reloading manuals, online, etc along with proper descriptions of CUP, PSI, SAAMI and all the rest.

You just have to work through it to understand it in your own way.

Bottom line is BE SAFE...follow reloading manual recommendations for the specific rifle you are shooting and DON'T experiment unless you know what it's all about.

Luck

I did that same search, and got as many hits as you did, including Randy Garrett's crap on why his 45-70 loads will out-penetrate just about anything on the planet.

I was just curious as to why Lyman thinks the Marlin 1895 in .450 Marlin is a .40,000-pound (CUP) rifle, and the same rifle in 45-70 a 28,000-pound rifle.

In this case Lyman is using SAAMI pressure specs for the CARTRIDGES.

You still need to understand the difference between PSI and CUP which by the way you are posting I understand you're not quite there.

SAAMI for the 45-70 just happens to be 28K IN BOTH PSI and CUP...SAAMI for the 450 Marlin is 43,500 PSI... NOT CUP...refering to it as a "xxx Pound" rifle just confuses the he** out of people already confused with which is which...."pounds" WHAT?

Again...NO DISS OR FLAME INTENDED.

I load my Browning 450 Marlin to WELL BEYOND SAAMI SPECS for the 450 Marlin case...because the receiver is rated for the 7 RM and 300 WM or ~64KPSI...the 450 Marlin case is safe to the same pressures as any other belted mag except maybe Weatherby mags.

I load my 458 Americans to ~40KPSI in my Marlin and ~45KPSI in my SMLE and to ~48-50KPSI in my NEF BC.

AND I use reloading manuals and software to develop loads for ALL my considerable number of rifles...PLUS all the experience I've learned in the past umpteen years of doing this sport.

The powder/bullet/ammo companies employ considerable numbers of highly trained and highly educated people to develop their products and go to a lot of trouble to produce up to the minute data...but they ALL follow SAAMI specs.

Old reloading books are suspect as to their data, but any manual produced in the past 10 years is good as long as you read ALL the information as to what rifle was used in the testing, barrel length, components etc., as a change in ANY of those parameters cand produce a very LARGE change in pressure/velocity.

Luck

Ahhh, brings back memories.

When I first started fiddling with the Marlin 45-70 I thought I had to load it to the extremes too. Seems like every noob goes through this. A couple thousand rounds later I've come to realize that you can stay pretty close to 28K psi and do it all. The stainless Guide Gun is my favorite packing rifle.