quote:

Originally posted by Steve Wendover:
If you consider the 280 Remington equal to the 7mm magnum, then you'll believe the 30-30 is the equal of the 32 Special--there's actually more difference between the two. Winchester developed the 32 Special to provide a round somewhere between the 30-30 and the 30-40 Krag round in power; it incidentally turns out to be a better cast bullet shooter than the 30 but that's secondary to the original intent. I have both; with the new LeverEvolution ammo the difference is not as pronounced, but still there--the 32 Special shoots flatter than the 35 Rem, and hits harder than the 30-30 with factory ammo; even more so loaded to the same pressure. One thing they've got right: there are more bullet options for the 30-30, unless you cast your own.
mind yer topknots!
windy

How does that kind of magic work when they both shoot the same weight bullets from cases that are identical and bore size is a few thousandths different?
Show me some math that proves your "theory"?
I am a big fan of both and own both but in my eyes the difference is indistinguishable.
Any choice of one over the other is purely a "like" and not based on field performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Wendover:
If you consider the 280 Remington equal to the 7mm magnum, then you'll believe the 30-30 is the equal of the 32 Special--there's actually more difference between the two. Winchester developed the 32 Special to provide a round somewhere between the 30-30 and the 30-40 Krag round in power; it incidentally turns out to be a better cast bullet shooter than the 30 but that's secondary to the original intent. I have both; with the new LeverEvolution ammo the difference is not as pronounced, but still there--the 32 Special shoots flatter than the 35 Rem, and hits harder than the 30-30 with factory ammo; even more so loaded to the same pressure. One thing they've got right: there are more bullet options for the 30-30, unless you cast your own.
mind yer topknots!
windy

How does that kind of magic work when they both shoot the same weight bullets from cases that are identical and bore size is a few thousandths different?
Show me some math that proves your "theory"?
I am a big fan of both and own both but in my eyes the difference is indistinguishable.
Any choice of one over the other is purely a "like" and not based on field performance.

+1

I've never heard the idea that the .32 special was designed to be a halfway point between .30-30 and the 30-40 before. In reality there are more theories floating around about why the .32 special was designed at all. The most accepted one is that the .32 could be reloaded with blackpowder in a time when smokeless powder was still realitively new and less available. The shallower grooves of the .32's rifling bear that out. But I guess adding one more to the list of theories just adds to the fun!

It is not a theory; it is in Winchester's own literature of the period, that the 32 was developed for black powder.
It does not have shallower rifling; it has slower twist; I have and have had, several 32 Winchesters and they are the same depth as a 30WCF, later called the 30-30.
Both have exactly the same killing potential. Any ideas contrary to that are of the arm chair type and not field generated.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It is not a theory; it is in Winchester's own literature of the period, that the 32 was developed for black powder.
It does not have shallower rifling; it has slower twist; I have and have had, several 32 Winchesters and they are the same depth as a 30WCF, later called the 30-30.
Both have exactly the same killing potential. Any ideas contrary to that are of the arm chair type and not field generated.

I too have had much experience with the 32 Special. ALL the 32 Special that Winchester made that I have had experience with DO have shallower rifling!!! If anyone is the armchair type it's YOU!! Maybe you had some rare ones. Marlin 32 Specials did have normal rifling, albeit a different bore and groove diameter then Winchester. The 32 Special wasn't specifically designed for Black powder, but was designed that you COULD reload it with Black powder, thus a dual powder cartridge. This was never said about the 30-30. Speer's Number 9 reloading manual mentions that the 30-30 having the faster twist still has decent accuracy as the barrel is worn, whereas once the slower twist of the 32 Special gets worn it's hopelessly inaccurate. I would say it would take a tremendous amount of shooting to wear the barrel and suspect this statement came about from cleaning rod wear at the muzzle because the 94 Winchester cannot be cleaned from the breech end such as a bolt action rifle.

Let armchair dpcd explain this from SAAMI on bore and grooves of the 32 Special and 30-30

This is from an official Winchester catalogue No 93 January 1907:

Model 1894 Winchester Repeating Rifle
.32Winchester Special Caliber

For Smokeless Or Black Powder

We have adapted the popular Winchester Model 1894 rifle to handle the new .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, and are prepared to furnish it in solid frame or take-down style with 26 inch round, octagon, or half octagon nickel steel barrels and with full or half magazines. Rifles for the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge are fitted with a new and specially designed rear sight (see page 80) which is graduated for either Smokeless or Black Powder cartridges.
All extras furnished on .30 W.C.F. or .38-55 caliber Model 1894 rifles can be furnished for this gun except extra light weight barrels.
Model 1894 .32-40 caliber rifles will not handle the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, and .30 Winchester caliber rifles cannot be bored up to do so.

The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, which we have just perfected, is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen for a Smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester and yet not so powerful as the .30 U.S. Army, and which could be reloaded with black powder and give satisfactory results. The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge meets all these requirements. Loaded with Smokeless powder and a 170 grain bullet, it has a muzzle velocity of 2,050 foot seconds, thereby generating a muzzle energy of 1,585 foot pounds. At the standard testing distance of 15 feet from the muzzle, this cartridge with a full metal patched bullet, will give a penetration of 45, 7/8 inch pine boards. Its trajectory is as follows: -
100 yards Trajectory.
Height at 50 yards,
1.17 inches.

200 yard Trajectory.
Height at 100 yards,
5.60 inches.

300 yard Trajectory.
Height at 150 yards,
15.26 inches.

From these figures it will be readily seen that the advantages of this cartridge are its great striking energy, penetration, high velocity and consequent flat trajectory.

With a charge of 40 grains of Black powder, the .32 Winchester Special develops a velocity of 1,385 foot seconds, which makes it a powerful black powder cartridge. In loading or reloading the .32 Winchester Special with black powder, the Winchester No. 5 1/2 should be used.

We load this cartridge with Smokeless powder only, but are prepared to furnish primed shells, full metal patched, metal patched soft pointed, or plain lead bullets, and reloading tools, for loading with black powder only. We do not advise hand loading or reloading of this cartridge with Smokeless powder by individuals.

I have a couple of chronographs, there is absoluty no balistic difference betweed a 32 Special and a 30-30..The 32 special is all but done for and that is the reason..The subject is contrary to all that's holy, and a waste of breath...Some folks fall for old time advertising, and it an't changed much over the years, but a good idea not to quote BS as fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:

I did locate a cache of brass and loaded ammo in .348 along with .50-110 brass that came from an estate. I hope it is still at the store if I ever do buy a rifle. It seems finding a large quantity of that brass and ammo is rare these days.

Starline is making both .348 and .50-110 in Missouri.


Tim

Geeeeezzz, just get one of each and be done with it. Isn't that a rule on AR?

Only lever I don't have is a .25-35.

When the 30 WCF and 32 Special were introduced, the period catalogues indicating the 32 Special as in between the power of the 30 WCF and 30/40 Krag were true. Original 30 WCF load was a mere 1900 FPS with 160 grain bullet.

Today the velocity with 170 grain bullets are within 100 fps of each other.

Regardless, of Groove/barrel dimensions these cartidges are the same.

In theory, the modern 30 WCF load with 170 grain bullet retains velocity and with traditional bullets should penetrate some fraction better, than the 32 Special 170 grain bullet. But the margin, especially at lever rifle distance is ridiculous to argue.

Again, with a 170 grain bullet there is only 100 FPS advantage to the 32 Special.

I guess you could load a 32 Special at somewhere around 1800 FPS with a 200 grain bullet if you handload. But you could do the same with the 30/30.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
When the 30 WCF and 32 Special were introduced, the period catalogues indicating the 32 Special as in between the power of the 30 WCF and 30/40 Krag were true. Original 30 WCF load was a mere 1900 FPS with 160 grain bullet.

Today the velocity with 170 grain bullets are within 100 fps of each other.

Regardless, of Groove/barrel dimensions these cartidges are the same.

In theory, the modern 30 WCF load with 170 grain bullet retains velocity and with traditional bullets should penetrate some fraction better, than the 32 Special 170 grain bullet. But the margin, especially at lever rifle distance is ridiculous to argue.

Again, with a 170 grain bullet there is only 100 FPS advantage to the 32 Special.

I guess you could load a 32 Special at somewhere around 1800 FPS with a 200 grain bullet if you handload. But you could do the same with the 30/30.

I have a 217 grain cast bullet that I shoot from my 32 Special at 1996 fps with no problems at all. I know primers are a terrible sign of pressure guessing, but these aren't even really that flat. The case shows nothing and falls out of the chamber. The recoil isn't anymore noticeable. Remember, although not much bigger bore, it does result in more volume space the further down the barrel the bullet travels lessening pressure then does the smaller 30-30 bore. As a funny I refer to the 30-40 Krag as the 30-30 Magnum!!

I believe you are getting that velocity. Please do not take this as an attack. I would caution that even with a 30 inch barrel, the 30/40 Krag only shows 2080 to 2238 fps. These are top max loads listed.

Nolser list one max load over IMR 4350 reaching 2348 from a 30 inch barrel Krag rifle.

Obviously, these loads are somewhat conservative owing to the age and strength of the Krag.

Obviously, your load is safe in your rifle. I am not challenging your load as unsafe.

At best this is a comparison of the 7mm/08 vs 7mm/57. The 7mm/57 has more capacity so should be able to beat the 7mm/08 velocity of 2880 with 140 grain bullet. Most 7mm/57, 140 grain factory loads are down loaded to 2660 due to old rifles. So, a given handload can and may beat the 7mm/08. The besting is still marginal. The cartridges are the same class.

I am going to assume at 44k psi and 24 or 26 inch barrel a 30/30 can reach 1800is fps with 200 grain bullet. In such case your load is 196 fps faster. I respectfully, submit with in 100 maybe 150 yards these rifles are generally used that is insignificant. The factory 170 grain 32 Special load is actually listed as being 180 fps faster than the factory 30/30, 170 grain load.

If anyone wants to load a 30/30 with 200 grain bullet and find out that would be academically interesting.

196 or 180 feet per second either way is not a significant difference. So, looking just at the velocity your load is not out of line of the velocity gap. Of course, I am assuming the 30/30 could be loaded to 1800 fps with 200 grain bullet.

Most folks are shooting factory at sub 300 pound animals 150 yards and in anyway. 32 Special, 170 grain at 2380 fps. 30/30, 170 grain 2200 fps.

I just do not see the point of going heavy in either cartridge when looking at the task both are asked to do particularly in lever action rifles. If you want or need more there are other 30 and 32 caliber cartridges.

With heavier and longer bullets, we also have feeding issues in lever actions. A good handloader would not be deterred, but I am not a good handloader.

The length of the 200 grain, 30 cal. bullet may well preclude the use of that bullet in the 30/30 or, at least, prevent it from obtaining 1800 fps. In which case, I concede the advantage when using bullets in excess of 170 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
You want a lever gun--get a Win 88 or a Savage99 in .308. Compare the ballistics of the spire pointed around 2800 fps to that of the 30-30 blunt around 2400 fps---no comparison.

BTw have people actually killed deer with a 30-30?

.

I have one of the first year JM marlin xlr’s in 308 marlin express. It will just about reach you 308 speed, but really, it is not noticeable different on game than a 30-30.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I believe you are getting that velocity. Please do not take this as an attack. I would caution that even with a 30 inch barrel, the 30/40 Krag only shows 2080 to 2238 fps. These are top max loads listed.

Nolser list one max load over IMR 4350 reaching 2348 from a 30 inch barrel Krag rifle.

Obviously, these loads are somewhat conservative owing to the age and strength of the Krag.

Obviously, your load is safe in your rifle. I am not challenging your load as unsafe.

At best this is a comparison of the 7mm/08 vs 7mm/57. The 7mm/57 has more capacity so should be able to beat the 7mm/08 velocity of 2880 with 140 grain bullet. Most 7mm/57, 140 grain factory loads are down loaded to 2660 due to old rifles. So, a given handload can and may beat the 7mm/08. The besting is still marginal. The cartridges are the same class.

I am going to assume at 44k psi and 24 or 26 inch barrel a 30/30 can reach 1800is fps with 200 grain bullet. In such case your load is 196 fps faster. I respectfully, submit with in 100 maybe 150 yards these rifles are generally used that is insignificant. The factory 170 grain 32 Special load is actually listed as being 180 fps faster than the factory 30/30, 170 grain load.

If anyone wants to load a 30/30 with 200 grain bullet and find out that would be academically interesting.

196 or 180 feet per second either way is not a significant difference. So, looking just at the velocity your load is not out of line of the velocity gap. Of course, I am assuming the 30/30 could be loaded to 1800 fps with 200 grain bullet.

Most folks are shooting factory at sub 300 pound animals 150 yards and in anyway. 32 Special, 170 grain at 2380 fps. 30/30, 170 grain 2200 fps.

I just do not see the point of going heavy in either cartridge when looking at the task both are asked to do particularly in lever action rifles. If you want or need more there are other 30 and 32 caliber cartridges.

With heavier and longer bullets, we also have feeding issues in lever actions. A good handloader would not be deterred, but I am not a good handloader.

The length of the 200 grain, 30 cal. bullet may well preclude the use of that bullet in the 30/30 or, at least, prevent it from obtaining 1800 fps. In which case, I concede the advantage when using bullets in excess of 170 grains.

The cast bullet is a Loverin or a sort and was designed by Lamar a member here. He didn't design it for the 32 Special though as it's kind of a fat 30 caliber bullet. I was surprised as long as the bullet is that the 16 twist in the 32 Special stabilized it very well. This bullet is .317 as cast and the groove in my 32 is .321 so you can see there's not a lot of friction. The bullet does have resistance from the land tops (the bore) and the powder gases hitting it are bumping it up so it works. This is a lot to do with the shallow rifling the 32 has. All in all I'm totally surprised it shoots so good. Thanks to the 32's long neck I can seat the bullet deep enough so it works through the action and also chambers. Previously I was using the LEE 170 grain 8mm bullet for the 8x57 which shoots very well too. In fact years ago I took a nice fat doe with that bullet.

This thread has taken on a soul of its own buried in bull shit..

BTW, I can't imagine anyone not owning at least one 25-35 its just un-American! and both of us agree on that..

470 Evans,
I agree the mod. 64 is a super nice 30-30 Win. I have a saddle Ring carbine/ mod. 64 cross breed rifle called the Renner Special, they mated the SRC action and stock with a a 64 barrel, wood and magazine and stameped the barrel with two marks on top behind the rear sight...As neat a gun as Ive ever owned and it shoots 1" to 1.5"s at 100 yards off a bench for 3 shot groups and I suspect 5 based on sever 3 shot groups in a row...A neat, collectable, hunting rifle in near mint condition..Love it.

I prefer Marlin 336s because they break down easy and are easy to clean,plus the action is protected from junk getting in.I use a 1948 SC in 32 Special.I have hunted with the 30/30 and 35 Rem and all three will do the same thing.I have also used the 307 Win and 356 Win.The extra power is not needed around here as most my shots are way under 100 yards.Hell my Grandfather used a Model 92 32/20 for deer ,bear and moose.Of course he head shot them or did not shoot.Just sayin,OB

Yes sir, the 32-20 and even the 25-20 have killed many deer, and with shoulder shots..I shot severalwith both, much preferred the 32-20, but the 25-20 really improved my tracking skills, as a matter of fact they both improved my tracking skills, and my sneaking skills also..After a couple of kills I decided my 63 win 22 L.R. actually performed better..I settled on the 25-35 at some point early on, and still like to hunt with it, but it too will test your hunting skills...The 30-30 is a damn fine deer and bear rifle IMO...

Somehow I now have 3- JM Marlin 336's now. (.30-30)Cheap to feed..Walmart is moving the ammo for $9/box locally.

Bugle, thanks for the heads up.

.30-30 rifles are like potato chips, you can't just have one.

I presently have sitting in the safe a Win 64A 30/30, Marlin 336D 35 Rem, Marlin 1895 45-70, Rossi Puma 45 Colt, Win Legacy 45 Colt,Marlin 1894 357 not to mention an assortment of Marlin 22 LR & Mags. I have shot and killed truckloads of whitetails and several black bears with them all except the .22s over the years and never noticed a spit of difference in their killing power between all of them. You do your job they'll do theirs it is that simple...if I had to pick a favorite rifle out of about 80 I own of killing power for whitetails it would be my Marlin 35 Remington 336D (Davidson) #502 of 1500 ever made. I do not know how many deer that little carbine has accounted for but it is many, very many. I handload 170 gr flat nose Speer over IMR 3031.

this post had to do with the 30-30 Win. and 35 Marlin, and the magical 32 Special, then a coracopia of bigger and better calibers popped up with common knowledge that the .348, 45-70, and a host of others like the Win. 71, Rem. m-8 and 81, Sav. 99 in 300 savage and 308, nobody mentioned the 284 so thought I mention its more powerful than the 30-30, well duh! :homer

Lets get down to the nut cutt'en, the 30-30s a decent short range deer rifle as is the 35 REm.
The 32 special, was a mistake and didn't sell so it was dropped from production many years ago and rightly so because it didn't have a thing to offer, and they had a bad reputation for poor accuracy plus a few other quirks...They were in fact just a piece of junk caliber wise, and history has proven that over and over...Cowboys didn't like them either, pig farmers did!

Saw a nice .32 win special WaffleTop Marlin at the gun show yesterday. hummed and hawwwed about it and it sold before I decided I wanted it. Bummer.

I had to come back to this thread to not feel so bad about losing out on that rifle.

good for you, you didn't become a pig farmer and proud owner of the 32 special!! Now go out an buy another Win. 94 Saddle ring carbine..