Thinking about getting a lever gun in .405 Win. I want something that doesn't kick like hell and is able to handle 300gr loads close to 2400 fps.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

BH63

that's an oxymoron!

How about this unfired Miroku/Winchester Deluxe in .405 WCF?

You can add the recoil pad, peep sight and such of your choice.


PS I took a buff or two with my 1895 .405:

Note recoil pad and Williams peep sight.

I second the 405 Japan/Winchester. Hodgen's reloadind data available for free on their website list 300 grain loads at 2400 fps with pressure data. However, this is with a Hornaday interlock bullet. That bullet in my very limited experience is soft at2250 fps and would become a bomb when striking meat at or near 2400 fps.
Hodgen told me over a he phone their listed data is the same for Swifts, but there is a thread indicating swifts run higher pressure all other equal than other jacketed bullets. That thread is in big bore thread.

Without a modified rifle, I do not believe it is safe to chase 2400 fps with a Barnes TSX when looking at their manual. With their bullet and data 2150 is pushing it.
TSX is a much longer and better monolithic soft.

This little piggy and this Nilgai were taken with Barnes TSX hand loaded to 2250 fps.
Jorge also has good hand loading experience with the 1895 .405 using Barnes and Northfork 300 grain monolithic bullets.

I have no doubt that Mr. Helton's TSX loads are safe in his rifle. With all due respect to Mr. Helton, Barnes data shows a longer than spec COL, but still functioning length for the Japan-Win 95s that was the test gun for developing the data.

The data has two loads both at 100 percent density (one is 102) velocity for both listed loads are in althr high 2130s. I do not think the difference between 2137 and 2250 is worth chasing with the TSX. But what I know about handloading you could stick in a gnat's eye. So, I stick to the books.

LHeym,
The reason that I load all my 300 grain bullets to a velocity of 2225-2250 is to remain compatible with the Hornady Factory 300 grain ammo and so far, all my 300 grain hand loads shoot to the same POI as do the Hornady 300.
My .405 Simson double rifle is regulated for Hornady 300 grain ammo at 2225 and also shoots my hand loads well.
With the right bullets, that is fast enough to take most game on the planet. However some folks shooting a Ruger #1 have pushed the 300 grain bullets on up to 2400 fps.

You and I may have offered solutions to the originator of this thread without asking why he picked a 300 grain target velocity of 2400 fps and what game he intends that ammo for.


I also have .405 WCF 400 grain hand loads at 2076 fps that are very effective on large tough game.

Mr. Helton: Your Post of your 405 is what got me to buy one. If there was a competent gunsmith around here, I would have my rifle modified for 400 grain bullets.

My assumption was the poster wanted to use his rifle on medium large (elk) size game. Hodgens gives data that meets his desire, but with a bullet that is in my limited experience is too soft for the desired speed. No one but Hodgen's list a 300 grain bullet at 2400.

I know you put a lot of effort in developing your loads and know more about them than I do. My thought is I would rather have the better bullet (TSX) at 2137 (Branes Manuel book the velocity from a max charge out of a 95) than the interlock at 2400. I caution against chasing 2250 with the TSX only because Barnes manual does not show a load with that comes close to that velocity.

I mean no disrespect or ill will. I am just reporting what the Barnes Reloading manual says about the TSX and in modified 405 95 Japanese-Winchester.

Thanks for all the good information.

I was thinking that a 300gr bullet that would hold up well at 2400fps and yet work in a tube magazine might be a little difficult to come up with (yet would be ideal for a compact rifle for running into a bear at close range or taking an elk out to 200 yds or so)..

Most of the lever guns I see available have the old-style buttplate and curved stock that is not conducive to heavy recoil.

Rather than customizing one of those, I was wondering if Marlin or someone had come up with a more modernized version of the lever rifle available in .405.

Guess I will start hitting the rifle companies direct.

BH63

The Japanese-Winchester 1895 is a internal, vertical box magazine. The cartridges sit on top on one another not end to end. They have flat, shotgun style butt plates (steel), but an actual pad could be added easily.

So, you can use spritzer bullets. The 405 is a 2.5 inch case and it would be difficult, if not impossible to fit in a Marlin. A 300 grain bullet at 2400 would not fit and not be safe. Spritzer styled TSX would not be safe in a Marlin.

The Japanese-Winchester 95 405 actions have been chambered in 9.3x62, 270 win, 30/06, 411 Hawk. So, there is some saftey margin to the action with max load data in the reloading manuals.

I got mine for 800 bucks like new with no box. Last time I looked on gunbroker with box asking prices were north of a grand.

Bufhunter63,
My favorite premium bullet for my 1895 .405
is the North Fork which comes as a bonded controlled expansion soft point, a cup point solid, and a flat point solid.
http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/

There are other good .405 bullets available such as Woodleigh and others that can be found with some Google searches.

In my experience, the Hornady 300 grain bullets are just fine for light and medium game, but are not as effective on larger game. The will kill big stuff, but it makes sense to try multiple brands and designs if going after DG.

Thanks Guys!

That's what I love about this forum, so much experienced advice.

Cheers,

BH63

Built several of them on old and new 95s. They all kick. Just a little less with a recoil pad and a lot more with the crescent butt plate. It's called physics.

That is true;just another one of Newton's little laws. But in truth when in the hunt,one NEVER feels the recoil.Or the sound I might add.

quote:

But in truth when in the hunt,one NEVER feels the recoil.Or the sound I might add.

Amen!
The Winchester 1895 .405 is a HUNTING rifle and although accurate, it is not a bench rest or varmint rifle- meaning that it is meant to be shot off hand (or off sticks) thereby mitigating the recoil (more physics). After many hundreds of rounds(who is counting?), mine has never even bruised me when shooting standing up.

Maybe not but let the average shooter use a 405 crescent butt plate for a few shots, and he will flinch badly during the hunt, whether he feels it or not. No one on AR of course.

dpcd,
You may be correct about that, but a crescent metal buttplate should not hurt or bruise if used correctly.

In fact, my crescent butt plate 1886 .45-90 with heavy DG loads kicks more than my 1895 ever has BUT, it has never bruised , cut , or made sore my shoulder or arm shooting off hand.
Now, before I learned how the use the rifle, shooting from a bench could be most unpleasant (which is why I learned how to use a crescent buttplate).

Wayne Van Zoll on tv about 10 years ago opined that a crescent but pad was suppose to go into the biceps of the shooting arm and not the shoulder.

I have no idea if this is right?

If you tuck the lower tip of the crescent into your armpit, the rest will take care of itself.

Do NOT try to shoot a hard kicking rifle with crescent butt plate like a shotgun! If you do, you may never forget the experience.

Crescent butt plates are thin, small and can never give the same results as a shotgun butt. Even when used correctly. They are not for hard kicking rifles.
I know, all you guys follow Elmer, who said, "I am immune to any and all recoil". And "I want my rifles to kill on both ends".

I have all of Elmer's books and have met him at a book signing in Dallas years ago. Quite a man!

I found the Hornady 300 to be a varmint bullet above about 2250. Slow it down or grab a different bullet.

^
Thanks for that advice (if I can find/buy one).

Amazing how gun prices have soared. I bought a Rem 870 new last month. Almost $700.00 bucks. Except for the Rem choke it is identical to the one I bought back when I was 16. That one set me back $124.00!

BH63

Recoil in the 1895 really isn't that bad, even with the steel recoil plate. Far more troublesome is the fact the butt plate on the new guns(mine at least) is smooth! Damn thing slides around on your shoulder.

I fixed it by putting a recoil pad off of a 101 shotgun. It's about 1/2 inch thick, fairly soft and easily conforms to the 1895s curved butt!

Also increases the LOP, which helps things a bit.

Perhaps the great majority of todays shooters of vintage rifles or any big bore rifle for that matter feel all big bores need a recoil pad. Most have never tried a steel butt plate, and are going by what they read in some shooting rag by one who also has never tried a steel butt plate. Most make judgement of recoil from a bench rest and from holding the rifle in a more relaxed mannor.

Ive shot 86s all with cresent butt plates and in all calibers, I shot big bore bolt guns with steel butt plates. both off hand and sighting in on a benchrest.

Ive decided a recoil pad gives a gun a one inch run at your shoulder as a wise man once told me..

I can't tell the difference if the gun is held tight into the should with the trigger hand and
snug on the forearm..Held otherwise the steel plate will hammer you, but then so will a recoil pad..

Funny thing is on big bore custom rifles many have the classic Silvers pad or its knockoff and that pad is sometimes leather covered and its pretty as can be, but in either case that pad is as hard as any steel butt plate, but most are happy as can be with it but condem the classic steel butt plate..

I would be interested in opinnions of this..

I had a client that had a mod. 95 in .405 with a simi crestant butt stock, and wanted to keep it original?? I ordered a simi cresent mod. 94 SRC stock as I recall, anyway I inleted to his gun, shaped and refinished it with a soft recoil pad and he loved it..As to recoil I couldn't tell any difference..A simi inlet stock is cheap and the work involved is about $100 for inlet and another $100 for a quick finish, maybe a bit less,most charge by the hour on such work..

I also recall Judge G sent his mod. 95 gun off and had chamber and magazine worked on to allow seating the 400 gr. bullets way out and it duplicated the 450-400-3" and he shot some buffalo with it on a hunt I sent him to with Pierre van Tonder. That was Judge G who posts here from time to time.

I recall another AR guy that did the same and was pleased..These guys were getting 2000 plus FPS with those lever guns..They all used the same gunsmith but I don't recall the name.

A 300-grain bullet at 2400fps would give a fair bit of recoil in a light rifle of say 8lb, shorter but sharper than a 400-grain bullet at 2100fps from a 10lb .450/.400.

If you settled for a gentler load, more easily achieved without excess summer pressures, added some extra weight to the rifle and a Decelerator-type pad, maybe you'd find the recoil easier to take.

quote:

A 300-grain bullet at 2400fps would give a fair bit of recoil in a light rifle of say 8lb, shorter but sharper than a 400-grain bullet at 2100fps from a 10lb .450/.400.

As Sambarman said, a few pounds and proper stock design can make a big difference in felt recoil.
My Simson Suhl (based on 12ga shotgun).405 WCF double rifle has both - 10 pound weight and a custom stock with cheek piece and right hand palm swell pistol grip and recoil pad.



It is very pleasant off the bench with 300 grain ammo at 2225-2250 fps. It is also pleasant with 400 grain hand loads at 2050 fps.
Offhand it is like shooting a 20 ga shotgun - no noticeable recoil.

If you.Put as limb saver slip on.recoil pad on it the 1895 in 405 Winchester is fun to shoot .I.Put one on my Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and its fun to shoot !

Just a note; realize that the modern Miroku/Winchester 405s have completely the incorrect barrel contour. Instead of making it like an original, which is a straight taper, they just took a barrel off a Howa bolt action and slapped them on the 95. I rebarrel them with the correct barrel, which is a bit heavier too. It would have been simple for them to do it right. Just so owners of them, know that they do not have a proper 405 barrel contour. 30-06 too is wrong. But they never ask me before they do anything.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
If you.Put as limb saver slip on.recoil pad on it the 1895 in 405 Winchester is fun to shoot .I.Put one on my Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and its fun to shoot !

I put a Limbsaver on a Lite .300 Win Mag and it does take a lot of sting out of the recoil. However, the rifle does seem to move back more (because of the "give" in the pad) and the scope ring touches my glasses, a problem I never experienced when shooting heavier recoiling guns (.416 Rem Mag).

BH63