This may sound like a dumb question, but...I am in the market for a takedown lever action, I have a choice of the Winchester 1886 in 45/70 or the Winchester 1895 in 405. Considering North American big game hunting , which caliber would you choose? I know that the 45/70 can be loaded in various levels, not all that sure about the 405, but from my research it seems that the 405 would have a better trajectory. Any opinions from users of either of these cartridges, and the two rifles mentioned, would certainly be appreciated.

Ammunition of various loadings and components are so readily available for the 45-70 I don't know why you would think of a 405.The 45-70 works very well on any game in North America and is considered appropriate to 150-200 yds.

I agree with Mete.With reloads in the 45-70/450 Marlin of Barnes 250 XFN's at 2550 fps(24 inch Barrel) and Buffalo Bores 300 Speer at 2350 fps to 550 grain bullets at 1600+ fps,the old war horse 45-70 is hard to beat.Not that the 405 isn't a great old one also but the componants now for the modern 45-70 like the Nosler/Barnes/North Fork.Swift A-Frame/Kodiak/Woodleigh and Rhino,make it a formidable force loaded to its potential.

Good luck on your choice...Jayco

I have seen a light primer strike problem with a Winchester 1886 takedown that even Winchester couldn't fix. The 1886 has Winchester's rebounding hammer. Pretty gun, but a piece of junk mechanically.

I have an 1886 take down in 45-70 that works like a charm. I also have a 95 in 405 that is not a take down. I'd be hard put to decide between the two of them.
I use both as cast bullet guns, using the loading data for high pressure jacketed bullets, for my cast bullets. I mention this because jacketed bullets were not part of my decision process. Plus I'm cheap, my cast bullets are a whole lot cheaper then any jacketed bullet.
You would be hard put to surpass the 1886 and variety 45-70 reloading components. The 405 is limited by the availablity of cases, bullets, loading data, bullet molds, sizing dies, etc.
I was lucky and found my 405 cases, once fired, on Ebay ( bought a life time supply of 500 cases), the one NEI 330 grain mold on Ebay. I had one 350 grain mold made by Mountain Molds, the dies by Redding, case trimmer pilot was for 416 and turned down, the sizing die were honed out 41 mag dies.
The 95 Winchester is one fine rifle and the 405 is a great cartridge.
Either of these rifles would be suitable for any critter on this contintent, with the right bullet and powder charge.
Jim

The .405 is a lot more gun IMO..It can be loaded up there pretty well...I have an itch for a 405 then install a quarter rib, barrel band swivel, barrel band front sight, an old Win. 95 bar slide rear peep sight, and stock it in a fancy piece of turkish Walnut..maybe cut the barrel to 22 but probably not as one needs to squeeze the last bit of velocity he can get out of a 400 gr. Woodleigh or a 360 gr. Northfork...It would make a pretty nice borderline Cape buffalo rifle...

There is a mod for the rebounding hammer problem in the 1886 repro rifles I have had it done to my 50-110 conversion It was written by Dave Scovill in Rifle magazine issue 210. The Mirouko 1886 copies are not junk and are extremely well finished rifles.........................wish I could afford a few more

I don't think the 405 is alot more gun than the 450/45-70 when loaded to the potential of either.To many "Old Timers" like myself in the past not paying attention to the capabuility's of the modern 450/45-70 and the bullets available for them.
..

Not bad for a levergun and 450 Marlin...Some of us "Old Guys" need to re-evaluate what happened 30 years ago with the 45-70..

My opinion....Jayco

jaycocreek,
On the surface what you say looks good, but the fact is a 400 gr. 40 caliber bullet is a lot more effective on game than a 400 gr. 45 cal. bullet...Penitration is the clue and that comes from Sectional density...You have to use a 500 gr. 45-70 bullet to equal the 400 gr. 405 Win. bullet..and you can't get enough velocity in a 45-70 with 500 gr. bullet, you can in a .405 is my contention, thus my choice of the .405 over the 45-70..

I have seen several test of .458 bullets in the 45-70/450 Marlin and Sectional Density takes a back seat to bullet construction in the levergun as this test shows the two 300 grain bullets(Nosler and Barnes) out penetrating the higher SD's of the heavier bullets.Times are changing for the 45-70/450 Marlin with bullets being made for the new velocities that do hold together and penetrate that defy sectional density numbers.


I won't say the 45-70 is better than the 405 because I have not shot the 405 but I can tell you the 300 Barnes XFN pentrated 90% of my Bull last year and excited going in tight against the left rear quarter penetrated the length of its body and exited through the right front quater and he dropped like a rock.Pretty impressive even compared to my .300 Win Mag with Noslers in 180/200 but range is a big factor in shooting big bullets at a medium velocity.

My opinion....Jayco

The 405 Win (.411) components and dies are readily available.

Brass - Hornady

Bullets - Barnes X, Hornady, Northfork & Woodleigh

Dies - Hornady

Recently found a sweet spot using 300 gr. Barnes X with 54.5 gr. of H4895 @ 2189 fps = 3193 ft. lbs. Sub moa.

Jacocreek,
Thats good performance, and your right the monolithics have changed things a good deal but the 405 also shoots monolithics so comparisons would still be equal..however I was thanking in terms of Cape Buffalo and Bison, and if I am not mistaken your bull was an elk as you compared it to a 300 Win...in which case I am sure your bullet worked well as the bull dropped to the shot..and you had all the penitration needed, but on a Cape Buffalo I think the 405 would win out hands down based on shooting them with simular bullets at simular velocities..Also just my opinnion, and for the sake of conversation...

Yes sir-I don't hunt anything Idaho doesn't have.Never been to Africa and wouldn't go if I won a trip.But as far as Bison go;I know of three shot with the 45-70 and Nosler Partitions in the last year.Seemed to work pretty well for the fella's and the one gal that chose it as the bullet of choice for the big Bison.

I'm only interested in a bullet that works on Deer and Elk as you know,Idaho rules and regs around here are for both Deer or Elk on the same hunt along with protection against the Grizzlies we don't have but we keep seeing.My neighbor was attacked by a Black Bear last year over an Elk kill.

I'm sure the old 405 is one heck of a gun and to compare two old greats like the 405 and 45-70 this day and age of the super mags is interesting.The .300 Win Mag continues to be my main gun for Elk/Deer in Idaho but there is always the thick timber Bulls where the 45-70 within 100 yards is quicker and just as deadly as the .300 Win Mag and the 45-70 Guide Gun makes a quick handling easy carry for about any outing and adds alittle security in the Wilderness areas of Central Idaho.

If I was rich I would have both.

Jayco

Jayco,

If you win that trip to Africa and don't want it, I'll take it.

Next time I'll take the .45-70 and leave the .405 at home

Just playing with gallon jugs full of water set in a row @40 yards it's amazing how much difference there is in a .458 350gr Hornady soft @2000fps and a .411 400gr woodleigh sp at @2000fps in penetration. Looks like the .411 will do twice as much.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jacocreek,
Thats good performance, and your right the monolithics have changed things a good deal but the 405 also shoots monolithics so comparisons would still be equal..however I was thanking in terms of Cape Buffalo and Bison, and if I am not mistaken your bull was an elk as you compared it to a 300 Win...in which case I am sure your bullet worked well as the bull dropped to the shot..and you had all the penitration needed, but on a Cape Buffalo I think the 405 would win out hands down based on shooting them with simular bullets at simular velocities..Also just my opinnion, and for the sake of conversation...

Ray
Should you get a 405 let me know, I'll ship you some of my cast bullets. I got Mountain molds to make me a 350 grain gas checked mold for the 405. It bears a close resemblence to some of the blunt nosed solids, that I've seen.
So far it's proven to be very acurate in my rifle with a case full of IMR 3031.
Jim

Paladin -- I'll flip you for the free trip!

Comparing the 350 Hornady Flat point in the 45-70 and a Woodleigh in a 405 isn't fair! Remember guy's most of the 45-70 boolits out there were not made for the velocities of the new 450/45-70 but the old SAAMI of 28,000 so they react quite differently than the newer Kodiaks/North Forks/Noslers/Barnes etc and even the 350/405 Woodleigh made for the 45-70.Here is a picture of the recovered bullets from the test above.


Yep,If I won a trip to Africa,I'd give it to one of you guys if you said "The 45-70 is better than the 405".

Jayco

Probably not fair that I'm using a Guide Gun for the .45-70 with the "1895" loading data and a Ruger #1 for the .405 with my "this is a mite hot, don't use it in your gun" data.

I may have to get some Woodleigh .458 400gr bullets to try in the Guide Gun, but that Hornady 350gr fp ( or the 350gr blem sold by Lock, Stock and Barrel) is a nice bullet.

No cartridge is better than another they are all loved equally, at least in my gun rack.

WELL I DO NOT PROFESS TO HAVE ANYWHERE NEAR THE KNOLEDGE OF THE RELOADERS HERE. DID A LITTLE YEARS AGO, BUT JUST FOR HANDGUNS. I DO LOVE THE ROMANCE OF HUNTING THE OLD WAY. LONGBOWS, AND LEVERS AND I LOVE BIG BULLETS. HAVE OWNED MOST FROM A 458 DOWN. I OWN ONE OF THE NEW 1895 HIGH GRADE GUNS IN 405. ITS A GREAT LOOKING AND HANDLING GUN. AS MUCH AS I WOULD LOVE TO, I DOUBT THAT I WILL EVER GET TO HUNT CAPE BUFFALO. I HAVE SHOT SEVERAL NICE DEER WITH THIS GUN AND IT MAKES AMAZINGLY SHORT WORK OUT OF THE JOB. AFTER THE ROAR THE DEER IS LAYING WHERE IT WAS PREVIOUSLY STANDING. I GIVE THE 405 A BIG THUMBS UP.

I think the model 1886 is considerably more ergonomic than the model 95. I would have to completely restock a 95 to make it acceptable and I know I am not the only person that feels this way.

If choosing between the two, I would take an 1886 in 45-70, but I would prefer an 1886 in 50-110, or better yet a bolt action in .500 Jeffery.

I have both the 1886 .45-70 and the 1895 in .405. Frankly, I love 'em both and have a ton of fun with both. Both are Mirokus and both are very fine rifles, both in fit/finish/operation and in accuracy.

I just returned from South Africa where I used the .405 and boy, was it a fun rifle to hunt with!!! I took a gemsbok, zebra, and a warthog with it, in addition to my PH liking it enough to use it himself on a mountain reedbuck.

My load was with the 300 Hornady FP at 2250 fps and it did quite a job, in my opinion. Also with me in Africa was my .375H&H, also loaded with a 300 gr Horn RN at 2250, so the two rifles were essentially equal. I know the .375 is capable of better than 2250, but thats were I was at the time and it worked splendidly, too!

I am a 45-70 nut, so it is always hard for me to not recommend that, but I have yet to take anything with my 45-70 1886 yet. I have carried it a good bit, but nothing has worked out yet.

But, when it comes right down to it, both rifles are equally qualified to do anything in North America, and both are capable of much in Africa. I love both of them, and cannot say one's better than the other, because they are both awesome!!! I just happen to have more trigger time on game with the .405...

And the ergonomics of the 1895 are a non-issue in my opinion... take that from a guy who just carried one around South Africa for 10 days!

There are plenty of components out there for both the 45-70 and the 405. Data for the .405 is a little harder to come across, but with some digging, you can find it. If you have a chrono, you can use your own common sence and the chrono to develop your own data... that's what I ended up doing once I found a little to get me started.

Trapdoor, what is your sighting system on your Winchester 1895 405 wcf? I have had one since they first came out with them,I traded my Taurus 454 and a Browning 10 ga. for mine,But it`s mostly sitting in my gun case for the last 4 to 5 years.I can`t see well with the as issued open buckhorn sight with the little tiny bead front.I would like to get this gun up and in hunting condition but I can`t find any after market open sights for this gun.I would like a ivory bead front with a express type rear if I could find some resonable

AMRA,

I'm just using the stock factory sights. I can still see them well... for now.

Ok Trapdoor Did you use powder in that load that did so well ? If your going to give info give it all Please.

concho,

I have only used 3031 in the .405 so far and probably won't stray from it as it gives me all that I think I'll ever get, both in accuracy and velocity.

I started at 48.0 grs with the Horn 300 FP and worked up to 56.0. I didn't chrono the starting loads but at 56.0 I was getting 2230 fps.. I round it to 2250 just for easy remembering in my mind... 2250 seems to come to mind as "max" out of the 1895 anyway, so I have no desire to go farther. I did not have any pressure signs.

This load is giving me average +/- 1.5" 5 shot groups at 50 yards with the stock iron sights. Personally, I feel this is very good... What's more is its accuracy performance at the river, where I shoot rocks. I hit "enough" rocks at all ranges out to +/- 150 yards that it keeps me confident in the rifle/load/me! And I have killed African game with it too!

This is all the info that I have, as I have only tried IMR3031, Hornady 300 gr. FP, CCI 200, and Hornady brass, and I am pleased as can be!

Trapdoor That's a great report Thank you very much Concho

Trapdoor
I had a mold made by Mountain Molds for my 405. This mold throws a nice 350 grain flat nosed gas checked bullet. The nose of the bullet engraves the rifling when I seat the cartridge in the chamber.
The first powder I used for this cartridge was IMR 4064, mainly because I bunches of it for the 308. This powder proved to be accurate but never achieved the preferred velocity.
I've done a little bit of reloading with IMR 4895, but not enough to comment on.
You are correct, IMR 3031 seems to be the powder made of the 405. If memory serves with my 350 grain cast bullet 54. 5 grains seems to be just about the right combination for accuracy and power.
Jim

arkypete,

I need to find a mould for this sweet rifle! I would dearly love to work up a cast load, but first need to find a bullet!

Any suggestions on if anyone makes the right size? From what I have seen, the major manufacturer's seemed to be bored a bit on the small side...

IMR3031.... THE perfect powder for so many things!

Trapdoor
I cannot recommend Mountain molds for making custom mold for the 405. So far I've had him make me two molds of my design, one of the 405 and a 208 grain for the 30-06 Winchester 95.
Both are engrave at chambering, blunt nosed, heavier then standard gas checked bullets.
Mountain molds has a bullet design program that works wonderfully.
My original perception of the 405 and the 30-06 lever actions was a 150 to 200 yard system, so I wanted a big flat meplat for shock and aid to expansion.
If I were to make another mold I would increase the length of the nose between the crimping groove and the bullet nose by 1/10 of an inch to add a bit more weight.

Mountain Molds Cast Bullet Molds

I picked up a NEI mold on Ebay, it's a 300 grain round nosed, gas checked bullet. So far I've not worked up a pleasing load for it, but it's delightfully easy mold to work with. I'm going to try some light loads with this bullet and see if I can use as a plinking bullet.

NEI Handtools, Inc

The correct diameter for the 405 cast bullets is .413. I use annealed 416 Remington gas checks and all bullets are water quinched at casting.
If there's anything else I can help with just give a shout.
Jim
You'll need to get a Lyman or RCBS sizer die reamed out to correct diameter.

Stillwell tool and Die

I have seen a lot of elk and bison shot with the 45-70, got a lot of that on film and its not very impressive, and they were using hot handloads...

I have also seen a few head of Bison and elk shot with a 405 and a few head of plainsgame and so far I have been satisfied with its performance, but none of these old calibers are spectacular killers IMO....I have found the 06 a much better killer than any of them so far. In my opine most folks just think the 45-70s a real killer, and have not used it much..Lots of hype out there about it...All the Cape Buffalo that have been killed with it made a lot of tracks before dieing, even in the articles I've read...

Perhaps the big 50s would be a better route. A 50-140 would be my choice..

Ray
I've been around bison at the Anadarko mountains, seen them on the big and little screen. I've never hunted them nor been around when they were hunted.
I'm a complete novice, so please don't take my question as anything then just wanting to know.
Is hunting bison actually hunting or is like walking/driving out into the pasture and shooting a big steer?
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have seen a lot of elk and bison shot with the 45-70, got a lot of that on film and its not very impressive, and they were using hot handloads...

I have also seen a few head of Bison and elk shot with a 405 and a few head of plainsgame and so far I have been satisfied with its performance, but none of these old calibers are spectacular killers IMO....I have found the 06 a much better killer than any of them so far. In my opine most folks just think the 45-70s a real killer, and have not used it much..Lots of hype out there about it...All the Cape Buffalo that have been killed with it made a lot of tracks before dieing, even in the articles I've read...

Perhaps the big 50s would be a better route. A 50-140 would be my choice..

Ray I have to say that to say the 45/70 is not a good killer ön certain game" is not correct. I have seen probably 500 or more head of game shot with the 45.70 and probably shot 200 my self and on say deer/pig/ sized game it kills like chain lightening and with a soft bullet either rem 405's, speer 400 gr or sierra 300 gr HPFN which expand violently it works like a 22/250 on a rabbit almost.

Granted it's not a cape buff gun although I am sure it has worked.

Now a .416 rigby loaded wit ha soft 400 gr taipan bullet at 2600 fps is like a natural disater for the same game.