Today I just realized a goal that I had set out to accomplish almost two years ago...develop the power of the 404 Jeffery/ 450-400 Nitro Express in a lever gun. In my modified Marlin 444 XLR I sent a 405 grain BTB bullet down the tube and through the chrono (at 15 feet) to 2171 fps (4000+ ft lbs). I had also been working with 300 grain bullets, and sent them through the chrono at 2400+ fps with 2500+ fps being a future goal. I will tell ya, life is good when it all comes together!!!! As more testing is done, I will keep you all posted if you like..........

Congratulations! It sounds like you've significantly upgraded the .444 Marlin to a viable performance level for the bigger game.

It sounds to me as though you've created a ballistic twin of the little-known 11.2x72 Schuler cartridge from years past. It had a 401 grain bullet of .439 diameter which had a muzzle velocity of around 2400 fps, max.

http://www.loaddata.com/member...r%20Reloading%20Data

But with the slightly smaller bore .43" bore of the .444 Marlin, the sectional density would be somewhat greater and have better penetration potential.

Congrats on your quest, however that has already been accomplished by Gary Reeder with his 416GNR and 450GNR as well as a few other lever-gun builders. Perhaps you can post a pic or two for us to view yours.

Thanks for that info Glenn!!! Very interesting!!!!

Woodrow S; My modification is not a wildcat...does not require any special threading, chambering, or a new barrel. It is a stock 444 Marlin, and uses all factory supplied parts, OEM cases, loading equipment, and components.....a lot of power, for little investment. I have never been able to post photos on this forum....I build good guns, but, I am computer iliterate!!!

What are the modifications to the rifle and/or cartridge? Are you staying within the max spec pressure level of the manufacturer, something like 36000 CUP? Interesting.

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Thanks for that info Glenn!!! Very interesting!!!!

You're quite welcome.
I can see that the Marlin round would have an additional advantage over the Schuler round in that the older cartridge had a rebated rim. I have too many doubts and misgivings about rebated rims to be comfortable with using them. With the .444 you don't have to worry about that, of course.
Best of all, I don't have to tell you that .444 brass is fairly common and relatively inexpensive. 11.2 brass is exotic and pricey!

Flat Top: Very interested in your developments. I'd love to hear details on your gun, and see photos. I have a local friend who is a bullet caster and an associate of Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets who has loaded to your levels and beyond, and took some very large game in Africa with his .444 Marlin and cast loads.

Woodrow S; I would have to write a book to explain the modifications, and they do require some specialized equipment and experience...as far as pressures, the 1895 Marlin 444 is rated to about 42,000 psi with the 444 cartridge. These loads show no indication that those pressures have been exceeded, and the recoil factor is about the same as with standard top end loads for an unmodified 444 1895, with same weight bullets.

Glenn; Unlike some of the older straight wall cases, the 444 is of a modern design...very stout. I have experienced absolutely no case "issues", and my test cases have been fired over 20 times with the loads I have been testing in my modified lever gun...even the primer pockets are still good and tight, and case wall, case stretch, etc, measurements are still within spec. Like you, I believe that case design plays an important factor in performance and longevity.

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If I remember correctly the 444 Marlin case is made from the same "brass slug" as the 30/06 case.

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the 1895 Marlin 444 is rated to about 42,000 psi with the 444 cartridge. These loads show no indication that those pressures have been exceeded, and the recoil factor is about the same as with standard top end loads for an unmodified 444 1895, with same weight bullets.

All the better! I was starting to worry about the need for a crossbolt or two like with a heavyweight magnum bolt action. Maybe not, then.
It's an exciting development. I'd like to stay on top of this one!

Glenn; I did bed and pillar the buttstock...felt a bit of "insurance" wouldnt hurt...but, I do this with all my Marlins.

Good idea IMHO, flat top.

Did you have to do any mods to the .444 case itself? The poster on this page seems to think that you do because the 405-grain is seated deeper. Me, I dunno.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=56546

Sounds like hot loaded .45-70's are about to get some serious competition here!

Glenn; No, no modifications to the case at all. Look at it this way...my 444 rifle is just as it came from the factory...same parts, barrel, etc. I just made a few "design changes" to the internals. I use standard 444 dies and reloading components. My cartridge overall length has changed a bit from OEM, and that is about the brunt of it. A fella on another forum told me once that what I was doing was bordering on 45-70 class III loads that could only be shot out of a Ruger No.1, and because I dont know anything about that, I cannot make a claim or statement about how the results of this modification fair against any other cartridge, caliber, or rifle. I will make a claim that the ballistics of this modification will stand on its own merit, and also shoulder to shoulder with some proven African large game cartridges.... but, thats about all I can say on that subject. I do know one thing, I would not fear anything standing in front of me if I was armed with this rifle....

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I do know one thing, I would not fear anything standing in front of me if I was armed with this rifle....

No doubt! Like you said at the beginning it's ballistically close to the better known .404 Jeffery. With a 400 grain bullet, the .423 inch bullet of the Jeffery had a sectional density of .319. Your .444 would have an SD of .313. Not much difference. But the 11.2 Schuler only has an SD of .297 by comparison.

I assume you mean that you modified the stock with bedding and pillaring to improve strength and that the chamber would still take the lighter rounds, right?

Yes; Standard 444 catridges can be shot in this rifle....also the bedding and pillaring is something I do to all of my Marlins. Over time tightening of the buttstock screw will compress the wood and make for a loose fit of the buttstock to the tang. When I bed and pillar the buttstock, because of the close fit and the added support of the pillar, all I need do is lightly torque (about 14-15 inch pounds) the buttstock screw and everything stays snug without losing the "fit" of the stock to the tang.

Care to tell us what kind of powder???

The best performance I have gotten with the powders I have tried with the 405 grain bullet has been Reloader-7. It seems to give the best gain per grain per volumn with the case capacity as it stands with the modification. I dont know how it would work in a standard Marlin 444.

You mention modification. I assume you mean that you can make the mods to the standard 444 Marlins.

I saw the 405 grain bullets in Beartooth's website. Not very expensive and they have the proper shape with the flat nose. I'm a big flatnose fan. If it's a solid, you should get some wonderful penetration with such a bullet!

Glenn; Yes, I can take a factory built 1895 444 Marlin and modify it to do the same as my 444.

I got some great news a couple of days ago....Marshall Stanton at Beartooth is going to have a special mold made up and produce a 405 grain bullet specifically for my modified Marlin 444. It will have a clean nose, with a single crimp groove suited for my modification! As far as penetration, For anything in North America, and probably just about anything in Africa, I am sure that the Beartooth 405 would get the job done. His alloy and lube has a proven record on large game, and if I am not mistaken his bullets are rated to something like 2600 fps.....possibly more....but that would have to be confirmed through him.

Flat Top, it looks like your Safari Grade .444 is getting some attention!

http://www.thehighroad.org/sho...7114811&postcount=55

Glenn; The miracles of modern technology...word spreads fast, dont it!!! I see that his post directs to the Marlin Owners Forum....I have been reporting the progress of this modification on there and on the Beartooth....Thanks!!!!

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Originally posted by flat top:
Glenn; Yes, I can take a factory built 1895 444 Marlin and modify it to do the same as my 444.

What about a Win 94 bigbore timber rifle?

ledvm; I have been told that the BB94 in 444 can be pumped up a bit due to the fact that it can withstand higher pressures than the Marlin. There are some articles on the BB94 on Paco Kelly's website...a good read for you Winchester guys. I personally dont work on Winny's, so I cant give you any info on what that rifle is capable of as far as modification. I will tell you that during the course of my project, balancing velocities and pressures in the Marlin was a feat in itself. The Winchester BB94 seems to be a lot more forgiving in that respect.

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What about a Win 94 bigbore timber rifle?

I had completely forgotten about the Winchester .444. But I suppose that's why Winchester went under a few years ago, because people kept overlooking their products.

some of us put one away for a 'rainy day'

I had a model 94 in 444 marlin. Mine was not a timber carbine, but with a full length magazine and wood stock. It held six rounds in the magazine instead of 5 like the marlin. It also kicked the snot out of me when I shot it. I had to sell it after my third layoff. Good hog rifle.

Flat Top, do you have anything new on the Safari Grade 444? Done any testing with it?

Glenn; For the time being the testing is complete. I reached my goal, and the little bit of accuracy testing that I have done shows my accuracy load to be the 405 at 2160 fps. I still have some more testing to do as far as accuracy is concerned, but, that will take place as time goes on.

OK. Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant testing by shooting into things like wet newspaper, phone books, ballistic gelatin to test penetration, how well the bullet holds together and stays straight inside the target, etc.

Glenn; ....dont need to! The ballistics have over 100 years of proof of performance. I personally would be more concerned about bullet choice for a specific use than ballistic numbers at this point. As far as "testing".....I have never experienced any keyholing in the targets (no stabilization issues, etc), and so far the accuracy has shown to be very acceptable, but, more on that later...when I complete the testing. I might "play around" and do some penetration tests, but, I dont think its necessary.... this is nothing new ballistically, and I am sure that it has been proven time and time again that a 400 grain bullet (providing that it is the correct bullet) will give excellent performance at 2150 fps. The only breakthrough here is that a 444 Marlin lever gun can develop these numbers.

FT: Have you checked to see if North Fork makes a cup point that would feed in your Marlin? That would make for a near-unstoppable load.

Bill; No they dont. About the only "solid" type bullet that I can find is the Belt Mountain Punch, and, it is a 300 grain bullet. It would be nice if North Fork, Belt Mountain, Woodleigh, or some of the others would make a nice 400 grainer for the 429 bore diameter. Just not much of a call for them, I guess. I think that the Beartooths that I use (or others of good alloy/shape, etc) would be just fine for all North American game, and most African game.....they may even work on the big boys! Before the advent of smokeless and full patch, lead bullets were used in Africa on large game, and seemed to do the job...........

Congrats, Flat Top...you just produced a very excellent tome on something that has been known bus a very few for a very long time, but who'se time might just have come because of your information.

Not to steal Flat Tops thunder, but I have posted on many forums the facts that same information...seating longer than published lengths, using ALL the magazine capacity, throating to seat bullets out and seating neck deep or less will gain you "free" case volume and extra velocity which translates into higher energy.

I also advocated getting deep into ballistics tables, comparing BC's of RN, FN, and pointy bullets to learn what it's all about.

Many times I got "attitude", non-belief or silence. Maybe I didn't explain right or went too far into the "science/numbers or it took something like Flatops actions to get things started.

I just ordered a 444S barrel from Gun Parts to play around with my Marlin 336 that I had Jes rebore to 356 Win several years ago...while I wait for a couple of barrels for other projects to arrive and because I could get ANOTHER big bore off and running in less than two weeks.

I've been wanted to do a 375 JDJ or 284, or a 416-444/284/WSM/something? for a long time on my 336...a "switch barrel 336 if you will. I fell into the 444 barrel by accident while I was looking for other pieces and parts for my 336 project.

I modified my 336 to handle up to 2.68" COAL 356 Win very easily, but to get to 2.75" takes a lot more skill and knowledge than what I have, or a trip to a LeverSmith, but at 2.75 a 35 JDJ, 375, 416 etc gains ~0.200" of case volume.

You can calculate the actual additional grains of H2O volume by the Circle Volume formula - Pi x radius squared x length difference x 253 which equals about 8 gr of H2O extra capacity for the 444M case.

Thats almost 11% more volume or about an average of what an "Ackley-ized" case gets...roughtly...and NOT an insubstantial amount of increase.

I ran the Beartooth 405 444 through Load from a Disk at 2.75" COAL and 22" bbl and it came up with around 1900 fs but at 50KCUP or slightly higher. I don't quite trust LD's predictions as I've come across too many discrepancies but anyone reading Marshalls excellent testing program with the 444S and 444P in the Tech section can see that excellent velocities can be had with heavy bullets and the 444...this ISN'T your Papa's 444 by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Hat's off to you Flat Top. I can now stop looking on Beartooth for an answer to my questions.

You might give a better, deeper description of the mods you had done/did and who did them.

LUCK

Enough talk, Flat Top. How in Hell do I get my hands on one of these? LOL. I love my Win. Trapper in 44Mag. I would love to have one of these as I love to shoot lever rifles. And this one sounds like it really means Big Bore buisness. Congrat's on this. But I think we all would like more info on this as FOOBAR said. C ya.

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The things you see when you don't have a gun.
NRA Life Member

I agree and I really like your sig line, kingd. Sums up my own experiences pretty well!

Thanks all! I work on the road and got back in town the other day....just getting here. First off as I have mentioned on other forums, this process is legally owned by myself and another legal entity, who does not want disclosure of this process...so, I am bound by my word, and by the law....and, I am not a lawbreaker!. I do all this work myself (been smithing for a tad over 45 years), and, in the near future I will make a decision with my partner as to how we are going to pursue this modification. We may put it in print, or, just may start doing modifications for individuals, or, both....but, I dont have an answer right now. So, be patient and we will see what transpires. I will say this about the modification. This type of work requires equipment and processes that most hobby gunsmiths do not have access to, and, a complete working knowledge of the Marlin action, its operation, timing, etc. I have done a small number of these modifications and have pretty well streamlined the entire process to reduce cost, "if" we decide to start working on others rifles.....so, I believe this modification, costing hundreds, rather than thousands of dollars will offer a lot of bang for the buck! Thanks again, and I appreciate everyones interest in this project. I will keep you all posted.

Flat Top

I don't want to throw a wet towel on this, and this may be entirely safe, but I am concerned about one of your statements. You say you don't rechamber or thread and use all the original internal parts. From this I presume your mods are for retiming the action to allow longer OAL (and maybe a re-throat). If that is true, then the action is still good for 42,000psi. You state that the loads "show no signs of exceeding this". What signs? At these pressures with modern brass, outside of primer flow in a non-bushed firing pin hole in old guns, I wouldn't expect to see any until the gun let go. That's always been the problem with modern but pressure limited lever guns when pushed. The gun lets go before the brass. I personally know two people who have taken pieces of the bolt to the right eye when trying this without data. With a bolt gun you get pressure signs before failure, and the failure is almost always the brass letting go and flowing. I would get some reliable pressure data on these loads before going much further and especially before selling one to somebody. Just my two cents worth.

Art S. PM sent.

flat top, don't want to cause you a problem, just want to get my paws on one of them rifles. Please do what you need to do and get back to us. By the way Someoldguy, don't it say pretty much say what happens to everybody! LOL! How many times have you thought this. C ya. kep shootin' straight!