There seems to be three sets of load data for the 45-70. The first is for the Trapdoor. The second set of loads is for Marlin lever guns at 28.000 psi. The third set of load data goes all the way up to 40,000 psi. The hot loads are usually indicated for the Ruger No1 but but the Marlin is supposed to be able to handle 40,000 psi. I have been loading for my Marlin and, so far, I have pretty much stuck with the 28,000 p.s.i load data. I know that I can go up but I can't see much point in doing so. I was wondering, how many of us are loading the really hot 40,000 psi loads in our lever guns? What say you? Is there any point in going up with the load data?

The problem ISN'T the three levels of pressure per se, it's the pressure limit of the RECEIVER that you are using...NOT the cartridge...most cartridge cases can handle 65 KPSI without any problems and some are rated quite a bit higher...all you have to do is take a look at any reloading manual that has pressure listed to get a good idea of a safe limit.

Bolt guns are rated at a higher pressure limit than are leverguns and the Marlin is rated to AT LEAST the pressures generated by the 444 and 450 Marlin cartridges...PLUS a safety limit the engineers deem "safe". Wild West loads their 457 Magnum to 44,000 CUP.

My advice has always been...Stay within the SAAMI specs of the RECEIVER you use and load to the level you are comfortable with...DOESN'T matter WHAT rifle/pistol/shotgun you are shooting.

I've found for the most part over the years that most of my bolt guns produce their highest accuracy near the top end of each cartridge's pressure spectrum and by dropping the pressure 10% you only loose about 5% velocity and usually gain 100% better accuracy. Again a study of almost ANY reloading manual will support this claim...which isn't mine, it came from Powley.

The distance(velocity) between 28 KCUP and 40 KCUP isn't all that much when considering the burn rate speed of the powders that are most workable in the 45-70.

Basically I load for max accuracy as long as it doesn't go to far beyond SAAMI specs as each gun is an island unto itself, and I really don't consider 40 KCUP really "HOT"...it is just the recommended safe limit for the Marlin...Now 70 KCUP is HOT and some folks load their Weatherby's up in those stratospheric zones...they must like leaning over the edge.

I'm guessing there is more words typed about the 45-70 on all the forums than a half dozen other popular calibers combined...especially about the "THREE LEVELS"...I really wish the gun gods would disappear the Trapdoor and ALL the loading data and be realistic about the 45-70...you know...like the "early" and "late" mausers. ... all that "stuff" just confuses the **** out of good folks.

Luck

I once shot much hotter loads in a .45/70 bolt gun. It was sort of an "explore a toy" process.
I learned I had little practical use for such loads and the recoil was a bit much for regular plinking. They killed white tail well but I moved on to other cartridges for white tails. I might use something hotter if I lived in moose country. As it is most of my loads are probably at or under the about 20,000 and they are used in very strong single shots.

I shoot an 80 gr load of GOEX FFG, Hornady 0.535", 230 gr round ball at ~1450fs/1100ftlbs ME, ~1000fs/500ftlbs/100yds in my Lyman Great Plains 54 cal BP shooter and have no problems shooting completely through deer and elk )or lodgepole pine log backups) and them lying down on the spot or very close by.

I have a constant fight with myself every time I go grabbing one of my really BIG cannons and go after their cousins, aunts or uncles considering I've taken more deer with a 22LR than all my other shooters combined I think.

I think we get more concerned over minutia in our quest for the "perfect" rifle/load/etc many times.

The 45-70 starts out with a large bullet to begin with and the penetrating power of large bullets at low velocities has been proven time and time again.

I've been through the hi-velo/lite bullet room and out the back door into the lo-velo/heavy bullet patio so to speak...and been in all the arguments on both sides.

I've learned a lot from both sides, mostly that unless the discussion-eez are all on the same page, what results is useless to everyone and everyone does what they want to do anyway... irreguardless of any supposed points made during the vocalities.

My Marlin weighs 9.3 # empty with scope so the 500 gr bullets I'm working with now don't seem to cause me much problem in the recoil department....at least to 1700fs so far...but I wouldn't want to spend an afternoon shooting a few hundred potguts with it...besides I couldn't afford the powder OR the bullets.

Reloading is all about taylor making your rounds to do what YOU want them to do...doesn't matter what Homer happens to like or think appropriate...just like the hamburger..."HAVE IT YOUR WAY".

Just enjoy your shooters.

lUCK

Dave:

FOOBAR is correct regarding the pressure capacity of the action/receiver is different than the pressure capacity of the cartridge case.

I think if I remember correctly the Marlin 1895's in 45-70 are rated by Marlin for 32K psi and the 1895's in 450M are rated to 43K psi. The primary reason for the different and higher limit in the 450 is because the threading between the barrel/receiver on the 45-70 is a "U" shape and the 450 is a "V" and has more thread count and leaves more metal in the barrel/chamber/receiver connection area.

Found this out when I was looking into doing some barrel swaps between some 1895s in 45-70 and 450M I have. Both the gunsmith I talked to and Marlin Tech gave me the same info.

I don't know beans about the Winchester levers, but they may be rated for a higher limit than the 45-70 Marlins.

This is not to say that some guys load and shoot rounds above the design specs and is probably true that the Marlin engineers design in a bit of safety margin but....to each his own and I wish them well and just hope I am not standing close to them if metal fatigue occurs at some point.

Personally, I reload for half a dozen 1895's in 45-70 and 450M a Ruger #1 in 45-70, a Remington DBL 45-70, three Siamese Mausers in 45-70, a Win 70 in 450M and a Ruger 77 in 450M. The #1 and the bolts get my "hot" loads and the levers all stay within SAMMI specs. In fact, the DBL, a 1895G and the M and the Win 70 are going with us to Namibia next week.

That is just me and everyone is more than free to choose their own path to explore.

FWIW...I pretty much finished load testing with a cast lead 500 gr RN I picked up at a gun show. I used data from Beartooth's tech section for their 525 Pile drivers but with a COL of 2.65" which gives me an additional 4 gr H2O case volume over the 2.55" COL they used which will also lower the pressures a bit. I also turned the RN into a FN with about a 0.260" meplat which reduced the bullet weight to ~495 gr.

The Beartooth data list several powders and velocities and was shot in the Marlin below 40 KCUP. You might take a look at it Dave...there is a lot more information in that data that meets the eye if you do a little bit of extrapolation, interpolation or just look at is sideways.

The slightly lighter bullet and 4 gr more H2O volume and a bit over the listed 44 gr load, gave me 1737fs and 0.512" case expansion. I stopped there as 0.512" is enough case expansion for the trimmed 458 WM case and an additional 0.0015", 0.5135", will stick a case in my Marlin. This also give me right at 100% load density with no compression which is what I try for in all my shooters.

Garrett loads his 540 Hammerheads to 1550 fs and 35 KCUP so this load would handle any T-RexRatz that happen to want to move in with you. ...

This load chewed through the backup lodgepole logs...punching through ~16" cross grain and causing an eruption in my sandbox on top of that....

Wish I had a way to pressure test my loads. I ran this data through Load from a Disk and it came up with pressures at least 10 KCUP higher which doesn't match with what Beartooth says or the pressure indications of my cases.

1700fs plus is WAY to much for anything but very large toothy critters so I will drop the load down to about 1500 fs and say "goodenuff".

I designed a muzzle brake with the holes on top and 45° on either side to keep the muzzle down and help reduce the slap. It really helps keep the muzzle down but not all that much with the "backwards" recoil...shooting offhand and rolling with the flow isn't all that bad but "off the bench", I try to find a "fish" to do the trigger pulling.

Enjoy your shooter, Dave... and your trip, Boss...

Luck

One last blurb...40 gr RL-7 hit 1540fs in my 22" Marlin...that equals roughly 40 fs per grain so dropping to 39 gr should give about 1500 fs.

Definitely easier on the shoulder and still penetrated ~16" of lodgepole, but not so much of a sand crater.

LUCK

Foobar, I think I plan on sticking with the bullets in the 400-405 grain range although Michael458 sent me some 460 grain cast bullets to try. One bullet that I have found that gives exceptional performance is the 400 grain Barnes Buster bullets. I tested them at the range in wet phone books. They really penetrate quite well. Would be and excellent load for a bison.

Thanks for all your help guys.

No moss growing on 400 gr bullets whatever velo you decide on.

I shoot Ranger Ricks 720 gr T-Rex thumpers in my 45-120 now and again...and I want to try some of his 975 gr 50 cal "missles" one of these days. I've shot throug 5 - ~16" lodgepole pine logs cross grain and the bullet still went of into the woods never to be found.

I also have holes in the back side of my sand 4" deep sand box from a few of them going through at the higher end, velocity wise.

There's always that big argument over penetration and expansion, complete energy dump into the game and blood trail...they all have valid points...and what's to argue about when you're munching on elk steak.

Ideally...the bullet that penetrates all the way through and falls to the ground 6" on the other side, expanded to 2-3 time bullet diameter so all the energy is expended INSIDE the animal...not matter how far the bullet had to travel...and leaves a HUGE blood trail for 10 feet...is a dream that will never happen....but you can get close depending on calculating all the factors.

I haven't tried the Barnes bullet yet, but have no doubt as to the efficacy of the bullet, I've used Barnes TSX's in several smaller calibers, mostly for longer ranges as they do work very well...and shooting bison that I can hand feed just doesn't compute...maybe African or Aussy buf.

I've watched friends take bison on some of the ranches that have hunts around my digs and it is litterally "shooting fish in a barrel"...besides the rancher constantly telling you what animal you can take and if you shoot a bull, the price is $2500-5000, and not that cow, she's a good producer....and....and....and...just like tying up ol' Bessy the milk cow and......

I lived in the middle of the "bull pen" on one ranch and some of the bulls would greet me when I came home after dark...slightly startling on dark nights when an Angus bull totally disappeared...wanting a scratch or a handfull of grass. I went to sleep hearing their grunts and moans and them shaking my little house by scratching at the corners...and was greeted in the morning by 25-75 impatient, hungry Angus, Charolais, Hereford and Santa Gertrudis, with a few mexican Bhramas thrown in to keep thinks lively.

The good thing about reloading is you can taylor make whatever level of pizzazz you want and it is always right.

I've had good luck with Beartooth 35, 44 and 45 cal bullets and I have some 475 and 590 gr, 50 cal BT's to try when I get my 510 Makatak metal parts coated and back together.

Luck

I mostly shoot 350 grain bullets for hogs and use the 400 grain bullets for something bigger if needed. I do keep my pressure under 40,000 though. I don't need to load all that hot! I have other rifles if things get to frigging big.

I am serious about making my 45/70 into a 45/90 and with over 4,000 pounds of energy it would be a whale of a saddle gun in bear country.

The 1886 Winchester Miroku reproductions are beautifully made strong guns. They have great modern metalurgy and the barrels look really good through a bore scope. I don't know if they are stronger than a Marlin but they are certainly as strong. My 45/90 hammers bison.

Blake

I think the only inexpensive way to make a Marlin into something resembling a 45-90 it to have it rechambered to 450 Alaskan...otherwise take out a loan on your kids and send it to Doug Turnbull...OR go with the Win 71. There isn't any way barring some major expensive reworking of the Marlin action to cycle the extra 0.300" of case and COL.

But you're right...a 45-90 is a heck of a cartridge in a levergun. Wish I hit the lotto so I could order a 50-110...just for kicks.

Luck

So...
how fast does a 45-90 push a 400g bulet?

The 45-90 has the same case capacity as the 458 WM so take a look at Hodgdons website for the 458 WM and pick out the pressure you want to use. Both cases are strong enought to handle the pressure and velocity most people can handle.

How fast depends on the receiver you use, the rifle weight, barrel length, bullet type etc., and the amount of recoil you can tolerate.

I guarantee it will go faster than 90% of us standard folks even want to think about...the supermen have other ideas...

I'd say a Sharps "Quigly" 34 incher could get it up well beyond 2400fs without ANY problems, conservatorily speaking...as I get that much in my 13#, 30" NEF 45-120 using 45-90 cases and 400 gr jacketed at less than ~40 KCUP using a 458 WM load right out of Hodgdons 2006 manual.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
There seems to be three sets of load data for the 45-70. The first is for the Trapdoor. The second set of loads is for Marlin lever guns at 28.000 psi. The third set of load data goes all the way up to 40,000 psi. The hot loads are usually indicated for the Ruger No1 but but the Marlin is supposed to be able to handle 40,000 psi. I have been loading for my Marlin and, so far, I have pretty much stuck with the 28,000 p.s.i load data. I know that I can go up but I can't see much point in doing so. I was wondering, how many of us are loading the really hot 40,000 psi loads in our lever guns? What say you? Is there any point in going up with the load data?

This is just my opinion, but I think it is really easy to be in the region of diminishing returns when loading the 45-70. The region where the increase in pressure doesn't yield much increase in velocity, and the increase in velocity doesn't do squat for either on-game performance or increasing useable range.

So again, IMO, you get about 99% of what a 45-70 can do by staying under 30K psi. Especially true in the Marlin 1895.

The beauty of the Guide Gun is it's physical dimensions - not so much the cartridge. And it takes guys a while to realize that trying to turn it into a 458Win is a waste of time. The most common counter productive high pressure loadings I see are light bullets pushed fast with the dream of somehow flattening out the rainbow trajectory of the 45-70.

The 45-70 has been a fun cartridge for me because it is chambered in a very handy, packable carbine. I have other rifles if I need a PBR of 300yds.

That's always the argument isn't it??...the size of the 45 cal bullet and it being fully capable of taking care of business for most NA game...going to a 300 gr bullet to get away from the recoil and get lower MRT's is one solution and you still are using a very large OD bullet pretty much twice the weight needed to take 90% of the game most people shoot.

I guess I like the "whack" that a 400 plus gr bullet gives so I pretty much only use lesser weights for sight adjustments to "get on the targer" when changing/messing up "things"

You're right of course within a narrow range, and I always say "dance with who you brung and enjoy the company".

Of course you can't turn a 45-70 into a 458 WM in a Marlin if you have any kind of concern for yours or your rifles welfare, but you can get pretty close to the bottom end of a 458 WM ballistics without getting into "high pressure"...but you can get 458 WM ballistics in any bolt gun or SS modern falling block like the Ruger and Browning 1895's...and still have a very nice light weight, handy shooter.

Use the load combination you feel comfortable with in whatever shooter you have...this sport isn't about being "right", it's about "enjoyment"...otherwise it get boring very fast.

Luck

For what its worth you can still get pretty heavy loads and still be under 28K pressure. H4895 and 400 grain bullets can get above 1800 fps (see loads in the Hodgdon manual). Other powders such as IMR 3031 can produce plenty of velocity as well at lower pressures too.