Being a novice with guns and ballastics I'm looking for some advice. I would like to know peoples opinion of using a BLR in 450 marlin for lion and Buff. I just read a thread from the big bore forum about the a 458 WSM. Can anyone give an opinion on this round and how close would it be to the 450 marlin

Thanks George

The 450 Marlin is the same ballistically as a hot loaded 45-70. Most would not consider this suitable for hunting DG. That would require a minimum of 450 grain bullet at 2200 fps.

Mete thanks for the response. I'm trying to come up with ideas for a DG gun
George

I don't want to burst your bubble, but the levergun isn't a viable primary weapon for dangerous game. If you want a good DGR, get a bolt gun of whatever make that fits your budget. That being said, I own several Marlins and love the shit outta them. There is the 1886 Win conversion that might be of consideration also.

why not have the barrel backed up and rechamber for 458wsm?
woofer

As another poster said there is the 50-110 conversion which I plan to do with an 1886 extra lite I have just put on lay away, starline make brass and CH4 make dies. This rifle will shoot a 530 gr bullet at 2200 fps. I sought of see the 50-110 im similar fashion to the 45/70 in that it can also be used with smokelss powder with the right brass.

I know lever guns are not DG rifles but there is no denying that a 530 gr bullet at 2200 fps would do the job

Woofer--You gain no advantage to going to the necked-up short mag and lose the advantage of the rimmed cartridge. What you need is powder capacity to get anything to move at safe pressures. The modern 45-70 loads by Buffalo Bore and Garrett's are at max for leverguns at 1900 right now. Go any hotter than that, you'll peen the shit out your locking mortises and your lever will start unlocking by itself. Not to mention the fact that you will be wearing the bolt on your forehead.

ouch! i was thinking the wsm would have a 100-150 fps advantage over the marlin. i figured with the wsm chamberings they have availabe then thie extra pop wouldn't be a problem.
my bad........
woofer

Just having an idea isn't a sin. Proceeding without checking out whether it is safe to do so is. Try and get one of the 1886's to convert to something bigger and get the oomph you need without excessive pressures. After all, a levergun doesn't lock up as tight as a boltgun anyways; it's called mechanical advantage. I have an 1886 in 45-70 that's gathering dust while I shoot my Marlins and since Kev posted his conversion to 50-110, I think I finally know what to do with my extra levergun.

475,

since 416SW and kev have sparked up the 1886 to 50-110 topic I have decided I reckon it would be a cool round to have. I hope you also decide to do the 50-110 then there will be a few of us. I would think mine will take about 12 months to get together as I will just go bit by bit get the rifle first etc.

Is the 1886 a smoother action than the win 94 30/30's ??

Your causing trouble by using common sense.45/70 has practical limitations - its not a 458. A 450 Marlin is a hot 45/70

PC

It is a much stronger action than the Mod94 as it shoots much more potent cartridges.

I think the advantage of the BLR is the magazine box vs the magazine tube in the '86/71 and the bulltes it allows you to shoot. I have been thinking of building a BLR in 9.3x62.

Cole--What I am trying to say is no matter what cartridge, 45-70 or 450 Marlin, the action is still the same. I had an older Marlin that I had converted to 475 JDJ sometime back and the guys called me back and told me that my locking mortises were starting to peen. That was my wake-up call as I was shooting 550 grainers in for a little while. If I remember right, I only put about 120 rds. through it but it was enough. Only time will tell as to how well the Marlin will hold up under the 450 loads. Hell, I already pissed somebody off when I posted that his 1350 loads weren't good enough and called him lucky. I guess I don't need to piss anybody else off.

475, i thought we were discussing the strength of the blr action? now i am pissed!
woofer

Dude, that's better than being pissed on.

About the only way is to take one the the 7mag/338 long actions and rebarrel to .458Win., an expensive job. But before I did that, I would borrow one the long action rifles to play with for a few days. To me (one who owns 3 short action BLRs), the long action has all the balance, grace and response of a grubbing hoe. There is no round that will fit a short action that will come close to a DG rifle round.

oh yeah, it would kick harder and sharper than you can imagine.
woofer

475 I enjoy your thoughs and humor!

You are welcome. I just try to say it as I see it and most of that comes from my shooting alot of this stuff years and years ago. I am an old fart at double nickel and am not politically correct.

For Africa one must have a SD of 300, a 400 gr. bullet at at least 2150 FPS IMO and you do have to meet a energy standard in some countries...this applies to lever actions and none I know of meet that criteria excep the 50-140 Sharps and it just barely squeeks by...

Shooting large animals with the 45-70, 450 Alaskan, the 50 whatevers in lever form just don't cut it..I have seen too many failures over the years, they are deer rifles.

The 375 and 9.3x62 are a whole new ball of wax and they have the SD and velocity to make up for a lack of bullet weight...

A Browning BLR, Win. 95 or Rem 760 would make a great 9.3x62, so all is not lost....

Sorry Woofer

Ray
I believe the 50-110 in 1886, 530grn at 2150fps would meet DGR criteria. You will note that Kev is claiming to get 2200fps with 525grn

I am very interested in this topic as I am retired from many yrs. work in the most remote wilderness areas of B.C. and Alberta; I have had a fair bit of close-range experience with Grizzlies and have used a number of rifles/loads for protecting my crews from bear attacks.

I would be very appreciative if Brent and everyone else would post their actual experiences with .45-70s etc. on heavy game, loads, distance and results. This is information that would benefit us all, IMO.

kutenaymtnboy,
I do not equate hunting bears or anything else, with protection from bears, or anything else.

Bears up close and coming in fast when you first meet them, are one thing. Stalking and killing one another. I would imagine a .45-70 Marlin or similar would be a good bear defense gun, certainly better than a .44 mag pistol, but I have no experience with charging bears so you will have to look elsewhere for that expertise.

In any event, I'm taking exception with Ray's recent and repetitive tirades against the bp cartridge rifles and his characterization of them as only deer rifles. That's his opinion, but not one agreed upon by very many people with much more experience with these sorts of rifles. There are quite a few of us and we feel they work quite well. That doesn't make them the equivalent of a .458 Lott either.

I have shot elk and antelope with my .45-90 and later .45-100 Sharps. The results on the elk were superb, the results on the antelope were not. The fact that I made a terrible shot on the antelope, breaking only it's leg - might have had something to do with that result. Had I shot it with a .458 Lott, I imagine the result would have been --- well, I'll let you guess. I also use the same powder and bullet in a .45 underhammer muzzleloader for deer and moose. Have never pulled a trigger yet on a moose, but the deer die pretty well.

In any event, they work well. If you hang around people that shoot them a lot, and hunt with them, you will hear about bison dropped in their tracks with 1 shot through the chest. And you will hear about bison that took 3-4 shots before they dropped.

If you hang around here where the .458 Lott is sorta a minimum caliber to be considered a real man, you will hear the same stories.

As Saeed has said many time, most any gun and decent bullet will get the job done just fine, if you hit what you aim at.

As for my loads, they are always pure lead and paper patched, with 83-100 grn of Goex Cartridge or Swiss 1 or 1.5 fg powder. Typically, I use bullets in the 475 to 525 grn range but occasionally as light as 450 gr or as heavy as 550. They are nearly always flat nosed. They typically go 1250-1350 fps depending on the rifle and bullet combination. Ranges have been from 35 to 260 yds. I have never recovered a bullet - all have been pass throughs.

I have extensive webpages on this at:
My bullets and a few other things.

Brent

Brent,
Do I not have a right to my opinnion on this board without your flame?? I think I do...I would bet you any amount of money that I have shot more game with the BP guns than you have seen so how about not judging me on that basis and making such false accuzation, that you can't even support, its just BS on your part to do that....You post your opinnion and I will post mine..Let the reader judge and do as he pleases...

I base my opinnions on experience of shooting animals and observing animals shot every year for the last 50 or so years, with various calibers and my conclusions in this instance are based on the many animals that I have shot with the 45-70, 45-90, 50 Beowolf and many others of the same ilk, and those animals that I have seen shot in both the states and Africa with such guns....

I can name instances, time and places along with load data etc. and I even have some of the miserable results on film and I would be glad to answer the mans request for instances if he would email me..I have already posted a number of instances wherein the BP guns have failed and see no reason to do so again and again..It really makes little difference to me who uses what....

I still use a 25-35 Win to hunt deer but I modify my hunting methods to the animal hunted with that small inefficient caliber, but it works when I do that on deer, but I have not experienced the same on the big undulents and the big bore lever guns..I gave a formula that I believe to be correct for big guns to kill big game and I believe it to be correct given a little flexibility in either direction...

Ray, you have a right to your opinion, and I to mine. Mine is no more inflammatory than your's.

As for that wager, I'd love to take you up on that. How would you like to validate that though? You have shot more game than I have seen??? Well, you for darn sure have shot a lot, but more than I have seen.... Hell, you don't know the first thing about me other than my first name. Sorta cocky ain't ya? You are doing exactly what you accuse me of, "such false accuzation, that you can't even support, its just BS" to quote you precisely. Aint that just a mite bit hypocritical - just a mite?

Ray, we can read and tell plenty of tall tales about not only bp guns that "fail" but also smokeless guns that fail. You did not long ago as a matter of fact. So post away. There ain't no magic caliber that kills them all everytime. Not even those that satisfy your little formula.

And, I'm glad you have your formula. It is all your's and you are welcome to keep it and brag on it. But we all have our opinions, and our experiences, We don't have to be 50 yrs old much less as old as you to have them.

I ain't looking for a big dust up with you. It is far too easy to get you wound up to be challenging - and I'm hardly into that sort of thrill seeking anyway. At the same time, I get tired of listening to you put down anything that doesn't make your little formula - and have every right to say so. Here on AR it seems to be the big measure of the man - put down anyone and everyone that doesn't follow your formula.

So, in any event, you use your guns, I'll use mine and any one else can use whatever they want. We all have our experiences.

If you really want to chew me out, just click through my information pages, and if you are half as good at tracking weblinks as you are Beowulfed bison, eventually you will find my office phone number. Use it if you want. Beat me up in

In the meantime, hack at Saeed about it. He was happy as a clam to proclaim that he would shoot a buffalo with a .45-70. I suppose he doesn't have any experience and is full of BS too? In the meantime, while I ain't gonna claim that the .45-70 is the be-all, end-all of DG rifles, they ain't just deer rifles either - except according to your formula. Go pick on Saeed.

Brent

look at the garret cartridge page and read about Vince Lupo and see how inefective you think a lever gun is against large african game. He took all of the big 6 and much more using a marlin 95 using garret ammo. He didnt even the new exiter ammo either just the regular 420 and 540 gr hammerhead loads.

WHAT!! No-one is going to challenge my assertion that a properly loaded .45/70 can kill Cape Buffalo?? What's the matter here??

Someone, somewhere needs to define their view of a DGR. While the 30-06 has been used hundreds of times to consistantly kill dangerous game when unaroused it remains a hunting rifle. 458's, 470's and 577's can be used for hunting, but were designed as stopping rifles, something that can stop unwanted activity when activities begin to get out of hand. While with the proper loads the 450 could well kill game, I personally will not rely on it to stop large excited game.

Good comment! The .45/70 would be OK for hunting, PROVIDED the PH is toting a stopper of an adequate caliber!!

With all due respects i beg to differ



I own and Have shot theses



GARRETT'S 45-70 EXITER AMMO

$180 / 20 CTGS



500-GRAIN SPEER TUNGSTEN SOLID AT 1530 -FPS



FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, AND MARLIN REPEATING RIFLES.

ENERGY: 2600 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 50; MEPLAT: .235"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-cup; SMALL-PRIMER; CCI 41 MILITARY-SPEC PRIMER; CUSTOM SMALL PRIMER POCKETED NICKEL-PLATED STARLINE BRASS; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS, ZERO @ 100-YDS, -6" @ 150-YDS



These rounds have taken many of the big 5









And i do know of what i speak



Pottsy

Looks like a great load......

I thank Brent is right IMHO.

30-30 Man

Man am I sick of this BS article popping up. Can any of you guys actually read or do you just highlight the parts you like ? That article CLEARLY says he shot and the bull ran, then the shooter threw more lead down range. Now golly gee we just come to the conclusion that the first shot, you know the one where the idiot actually did NOT know where it hit...went completely through the first buff killing a cow. Then this Jack ass claims its not a good thing their was not a third buff behind the cow ! LMAO yeeeeah right, Maybee you ought to read the part where our lever gun hero is thankfull for the PH saving his ass because he could not pay the trophy fee on the cow. There is the closest thing to the truth in that worthless article. I do like the style of you guys that go after Ray. Most of you don't know sickem and you even admidt as much but because you read some rubbish in a magazine you think you know more than some one who has been around the block a few times. Then to top it off you sort of half assed quote TR although that is NEVER what he said about the 405 Winchester. Gee I bet you read that in a add someplace or "heard" it on a internet forum so sheeeet it must be true Your big bad Cor Bon guys got their balls in a pinch on another forum shooting their mouths off about the ability of that bullet. If I remember right they were offering some fast apolagies no doubt to save their jobs after trying to spread horse crap about that bullet. oooops.

Hey Carmello AKA Potsy

ChuckWagon
You done yet ?
You dont know me from squat and yet you come out with this ?
I really dont want to hear any more about your trouble's

Pottsy

HI,

I have E-mail Martinpotts and he has been very helpful and knows a hell of alot about bullet making.I do not like to get into person to person problems here but I do not believe for a second that he is anyone other than who he saids he is.Kev

I guess you have been busy with old Potsy in the 1 week since he has been around. Just about the same time old Carmelo dissapeared.

Ross Seyfried,a PH from Africa,had the 585 Nyati wildcat made just for him.After shooting an elephant with a 450 Nitro Express.With a solid hit from the 450 Nitro,the elephant got vary mad.It almost killed old Ross.I guess one can say,you can never be over gun'd in Africa.