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The Win BB is stronger. Winchester chambered 50,000cup cartridges in it for years. Marlin chambered the same cartridges for a short time and stopped. The thinking is that they stopped because the action couldn't handle it. William Iorg over on leverguns.com has rechambered standard Wins and Marlins to 30-30 AI. He found the standard 94 can handle heavier loads than the Marlin 336. The Win is probably easier to rebarrel because the Marlin has an extension on top of the barrel shank that helps guide the nose of the bullet into the chamber. That extension will require more machine work. I believe the Marlin also has square threads if that matters to you. I believe the Win will also accomodate slightly longer cartridges although that can vary between chamberings and boolit nose shape. Apparently either can be modified to feed somewhat longer cartridges. I don't know the details on it though. | ||
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Is there any functional difference in the strength of the winchester Big bore mod 94 and the Marlin 336? What about max cartrige length? Are they both limited to 2.5" ish I'm haveing a crazy thought run though my mind that won't seem to go away. Is one easier to rebarrel then the other ?  | |||
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Marc, It's a bit like the Chevy versus Dodge debate(lol, I drive a 25yr old Mercedes 240D),,,,. Each has it's plusses and minuses. For me, I prefer the solid top side eject Marlin, and the gunsmiths I talk to like the Marlin as a basically stronger action than the Win 94. The Big Bore is beefed up in that critical rear bolt lock-up area, and Paco Kelly, a well known HOT load kinda' guy, reckins the Win is stronger. Mebbe so, but I've found my Marlins to be more accurate, and the simplicity of working on them, and the consistency of design, and parts, means that my 1893's are essentially the same as the current 336's. The Marlin thread is trickier to machine, but they haven't changed that style untill you hit the Marlin 450. A new barrel still plugs into my hundred year old models. As to why the 356Win, the 375 or 307Win never made it?? Marketing I believe, and the ballistics of flat nose/round nose bullets. Lever actions will never be 300 yard rifles, unless you want to talk about Savage 99's, and that IS the strongest lever action out there. For fast handling and big game stopping power in cover, I'll take my Marlin 444 or 1895 in 45/70 though. Cheers, R*2 Ps. The Marlin action is easily modified to handle up to .100", longer is possible, but it starts gettin' a little trickier. Haven't tried it on one of the Winnies. Lol, havin' to much fun with my Marlins, {  ). | |||
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R*2, We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. The Marlin looks stronger with the enclosed receiver and I always thought it was. However I have read some stuff lately that has changed my mind. The major point in the Win's favor is that the locking bolt completely blocks the back of the bolt while the Marlin locking bolt only engages the lower half of the bolt. The result seems to be that the Marlin will kick the lever open and/or give sticky extraction before the Win will with heavy loads. As to ultimate strength, all the pictures of blown up Win 94's and Marlin 336's I have seen show that the barrel let go and not the locking bolt. It is also interesting that Win introduced the 450 Marlin cartridge this year in the standard M94-not the Big Bore! However Win announced the introduction of the 480 Ruger in the M94 last year and I don't know that they ever materialized. Scuttlebutt has it that the 94 couldn't handle the 60,000 or 65,000 psi pressures of the 480. Paco does scare me and anybody working up loads would be well served by reducing his data about 20% and going from there. I do tend to believe his assessment of the BB 94 as the stronger action. Who would know better than the man who routinely pushes the envelope? It matters not to me personally because I dislike the sight of my own blood and figure I am ugly enough without rearranging my features with miscellaneous flying rifle parts! I tend to use moderate loads in everything. I live and hunt in hot country and pressures can get out of hand in a hurry when temps rise. I don't think the barrel thread issue is that important but it does exist. And all Win 94 barrels also interchange with the exception of the BB barrels. The COL issue puzzles me. I have a 30-30 Sears model 100 which is a M94 Win that will cycle cartridges up to 2.65". Then I have a 356 Win M94 that will only cycle cartridges up to 2.55" and Win's own data shows max Col for the 356 to be 2.57"! My Marlin 336 30-30 will also only cycle rounds up to about 2.55" in length. | |||
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so does either of the leverguns being discussed NEED a rimmed case to function? Or could I use a rimmless case as long as the rim was the right size for the bolt and extractor if I was to rechamber it? | |||
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The Marlin uses the rimless 35 Remington as a standard chambering so it does not need a rim. The Win is generally said to need a rim, BUT some people have been able to use rimless 358Win brass in their 356 Win's. The problem is the design of the cartridge stop on the front of the lever link. It might take some tinkering to make it work with a specific cartridge but it can undoubtedly be made to work. In fact when I get a round tuit, I am going to do a little wildcatting on one of my BB 94's to use a rimless case. | |||
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Quote: ----------------------------------------------- First off forgive my poor spelling.( Public schooling ) Big Bore ( 94 ) Is this strong then the Marlin ( 366 ) ? Could you ask a tricker Question.... the answer is Yes AND No .. the Winchester mod ( 94 ) lever action rifle Is as strong as the Marlin and that's were it end's the confution is understandable ...When talking about big bore's most convertion's to even larger bore's are NOT done on the Winchester Mod. ( 94 ) there done on the Winchester Mod. ( 86 )..Re 45/90 - 45/110 - 50/90 - 50/100 50/110 .. As for what one will hold up under the most pounding ..PSI wise Marlin .. The Marlin Lever Action Rifle before leaving the shop is Pre tested by firing just as are all Rifle's be it semi auto bolt action Etc These test are for other reason's not just a test of durablity nor strenth .Marlin's test round's are about the same PSI rating as the Winchester's.. Now we get into trouble here....A one time blow at high pressure who win's.! No one but the winchester will serive over the marlin It's really not a question of what action is strongest it's a question of what part give's way . FIRST and sorry to say it's Marlin .. There's a odd looking Bar/cam lock in the Marlin rifle that hold's and lock's the bolt into place . It rest's at the back bottom left inside of the action this part has a tappered end that Cam's up / rise's and slide's forward to lock the bolt It's tapper and the amount of metel that holds the bolt is small and it's pron to jumping the locking rider on the bolt .When this happen's the bolt move's rearward and lock's the whole action tight /Jamming the bolt Remmber this is only the case when OVER charge's are used ...To blow A Marlin lever action in 375- 45/70- 450 Marlin -( big bore ) you would first have to be careless... and you would needto reach a PSI of over 80 to 100 Thousand PSI ... I speak from None to proudly i might say from Experience with the marlin lever action... Now For the ( Lever action will never be long range gun's O boy  Have we forgotten the Browning BLR .!...It come's stock in a 243 - 270 -7 MM mag -308 - 30/06 300 win mag 300 WSMag 450 Marlin and 45/70... and also come's in a stainless steel vertion It's Normal PSI is over both Winchester And Marlin I am sure during this i left out alot but it come's down to what you really want out of your lever.. and that.! is up to you | |||
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May I suggest that the reason Marlins are converted to 50-110 etc. is not because of strength but because these conversions are based on the 1895 Marlin which has the receiver hogged out to accommodate the rim size of the 45-70 which also happens to be the rim size of the 50-110 etc. To convert the Win94 would require hogging out the inside of the receiver and loading port and would also require fitting a larger magazine tube and related parts. Why bother when Marlin has already done the work on the 1895? | |||
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Quote: ==================== No ... The Winchester Mod 1886 ( New mod ) And the Browning Long Mag lever Action's are rechambable into 50-110 Not the Marlin Not Even The Old Marlin's based on the Winchester.. The most you can get out of the Marlin Lever Action is a 45/90..And at that it's work.!! ----- Just a note here Browing's BLR come's in Stainless And there worth ever penny.. Just make sure you buy the long mag/ action | |||
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You are incorrect. The Marlin 1895 can be altered to take a 2.65 overall length case and accomodate a 50 cal barrel. Go to--www.marlinowners.com and go to the gallery section and you can view photos of my .50 alaskan 1895 Cowboy. My gallery is listed under the same name-- buckeyeshooter. The main modification involved is re-chambering the barrel and no new action parts are needed. The case is based on the 348 Win (or 50-100 Win- same case head). To get back to the discussion. Marlin actions are rated in the 40,000 to 42,000 class. Winchester 94's are rated the same. The Winchester "Big Bore" has an added thickness in the action to accomodate the 307,356 and 375 Winchester brought out specifically for this model. These rounds were rated in the 50,000 class. As also stated, the savage 99 and BLR can accomodate bolt action rifle cartridges like the 308, ect. For those considering pumping up your loads. I would recommend you change cartridges rater than hot rod your handloads. If your 30-30 is not the ticket-- find a 307 winchester. If your 35 Remington is not the ticket get a 356 Winchester. Please do not try to make your 45/70 a 458-- someone could get hurt. | |||
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The 50 Alaskan is NOT a 50-110 And i never said it could not be rechambered to the 50 alaskan. and a point in fact.! it's shorter then the 457 WW West | |||
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Quote: I point of FACT i have already rechambered a Browning lever action into a .458 Winchester from a 300 Winchester | |||
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I am assuming you are referring to a BLR from 300 to 458?? The BLR was not a point of conversation with me. I was referring to the Marlin/ Winchester rifles the post was concerned with. Your statement that the marlin action was limited to the 45/90 was what I take issue with. The 50 alaskan is a 2.5 cased (or shortened version of the 50-110). I do not know anything of the wild west wildcat, except that some folks have said it offers nothing new than 45/70 handloads. I believe that one can do anything the 50-110 can do with the 50 Alaskan. The only difference being case length. So, point that at your facts and don't mix your subjects.  | |||
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Well, I almost hate to get into this again but a man named David Clay has claimed to modify a Marlin 1895 to use the 50-110. I suppose it is more of a stunt than anything else. I also saw that Mic McPherson will modify the Marlin 336/1895 to take up to a 2.73" COL for the modest sum of $250. He will do 2.68" for $125. He does not offer the same service for the Winchester so it may not be possible to go that far in the Winchester. Martin, your account of your problem with the Marlin is interesting. Thanks for posting it. | |||
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I will try and help you understand... The 45/70-50/70 45/80 50/80 45/90 50/90 All can be rechambered into a Marlin or Winchester or for that matter a browning lever ... the 45/100 50/100 45/110 50/110 Can not be chambered in to a Marlin lever action Rifle. The diffrent's between the 50 Alaskan and the 50-110 500 grain jacketed . 1800 FPS MAX -50 Alaskan 500 grain jacketed . 2300 FPS Max -50-110 There is a diffrent's between the two and the gap just get's bigger the the heaver the bullet weight.... The 50 Alaskan is in no way a slouch and is one of the best thing's to happen in the lever world in year's the 457 WW West does not offer anything Randy Garrett's load's are hotter buffalo bore's ( 45/70 mag) load's are hotter Core bond's Load's are hotter I never once said the Marlin Lever Action was not up to par I own two now .. I also own a browning lever action and i own it for one reason becouse it could.! be rechambered and is. Now rechambered to 458 win mag the main reason was becouse it's a box feed not tube feed. and i was not the one that started MIXING THE SUBJECT... And if your going to start being rude do it some place else. .... | |||
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Gents, Good discussion on the relative merits and what is feasible/possible. The Browning BLR is a VERY strong action with it's rotating front lug locking bolt. The Savage 99 and the Winchester 1895 are also magazine fed rather than tubular and can indeed use pointy bullets. The other solution with tubular is to make them a 2 shot rifle, one in the chamber, and one in the tube. The cartridge that has recently caught my eye is the re-issue of the 405 Winchester, Teddy Roosevelt's favorite rouund for Africa apparently. I must confess though that I just don't like the look of that magazine on the Win1895. As pointed out, the rear bolt lock-up on the Win 94's is a bit better designed than the Marlin and has more meat. The 1886 and Model 71 Winchester have dual lugs that come up either side of the bolt, the 92 is a smaller version of the same type of action, more secure IMHO than either the 336 or the Win 94. But ur still stuck with that top eject, or the AE of the more modern Win Big Bores, a hassle to install scopes et al. For hotrodding, I agree, just go a bigger cartridge. I personally find the 444Marlin and the 45/70 loaded up more than enuff for this shooter. My 336ER in 356Win is fast becoming the best of both worlds, lol, found a 'magic' load for it yesterday. A 180gr doin' 2340fps giving me MOA out of a 20" barrel, not staggering ballistics, but in the fading light at the range, I was plugging the 200 yd target with good consistency. Shifting from 25-50-100 yds without changin' the sight was good fun,, I have to hold about 6" high for the 200, and about 2" low at the 100. More than enough range and oomph for anything here on the East Coast. As I've said, for Big Bear country I'd bring along the 45/70 or 444. Either of those two cartridges, with proper placement and hardcast boolits, would drop anything on the planet under a 100yds IMO. To each his own, { ).Cheers, R*2 | |||
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Quote: Hello Martin-I must have read your post wrong.I know that you know that Wild West guns .457 Mag is hotter than all the ones you listed because they load to 45,000 CUP.Useing the same 405 RP bullet Buffalo Bores velocity is 2,005 fps and the .457 Mag is 2,075 fps both out of a 22 inch barrel and most of Garretts ammo is at 35,000 PSI and Cor-Bons is even less. Have a good one...........Jayco. | |||
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Marc, It is not a stunt. I handled one at the shot show. He does outstanding work. I ended up having my work done by Turnbull Restoration as Dave clay was moving his shop and his backlog of work was very long. | |||
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jaycocreek Hay ya hippy.!!! the point is that you can reload your 45/70 as hot a the .457 WW West so there's no advatage in converting it over from 45/70 to .457 WW Randy has new round's that as you know are not out yet that do go beyong the .457 WW West load's when i talk to him he was still doing the testing on the smallest of the new type of .458 bullet the 400 Grain jacketed soft point.. His finished the load testing for the 500 and 550 jacketed soft point's for t he 45/70's ...Jayco did i tell ya i was having Robert Dunlap over in Coquille do me up another 9.3x64 and a Browning Lever Action .458 When i asked him about doing the .458 convertion he sat there and just looked at me like my hair was on fire.!! he told me ..IF you want to throw your money away i can help you do it ... It's going to be 3 more month before it's done although he did my 9.3x64 in record time in only about 6 week's he still need to put the barrel band on it and replace the front sight with a banded one....and it will be finished.. all he has so far for the .458 is the sight's front and rear and the reamer's .. the cost for the reamer was cheap i only had to come up with 48.00 on my end and 31.00 for the 458's.......... O did i tell ya i tryed out some of my 600 grain .458's in the 45/70 i had to ram that bullet so far back into the case there was almost NO room for powder it's not going more then 1000 FPS kinda pointless to make them up .and thay cost me about 32 cent's a piece to make 14 cent's for the jacket the rest is lead cost and my 5 cent's pre hour rate | |||
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Martin I beleive Dave Clay did make a Marlin 50-110 and is quoted as saying he would not do it again as the amount of work required is a lot more than a 1886 also the Marlin was limited in the OAL of the loaded round, as in it could not take 2.88" | |||
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I'm going to add fuel to this fire: From a prominent gun magazine and I'm quoting the author (Who's name I do not remember) "A stainless steel cylinder in a hand gun is twice as strong as it's blue carbon counter part" A stainless Marlin 30-30 is stronger than either the Winchester or Marlin carbon models. | |||
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Quote: Yes i know Dave Clay does the 50-110's And No he has never turned a Marlin Mod/366 lever action rifle in to a 50-110.. i never ever said he did turn a Marlin lever action Mod/366 into one.. What he and i have spoken of over the telephone was what the diffrent's are in covertion's in browning's lever action compared to the covertion's done on the Winchester Mod/ 1886 one being a box feed and the other being a tube feed... we talked a lenght about the tube work required on the /86 and the loading gate and the riser and other pieces that need work to turn a 1886 Winchester from a 45/70 into a 50-110 . We then spoke about the Browning lever action at lenght So yes i have spoken to him on the telephone and yes i do know first hand now what it does and does not take to turn a winchester or browning from 45/70 or 50/70 or 45/80 or 45/90 ,,etc in to a 50-110 The reason i went with browning stainless is becouse no other gunsmith would touch the convertion or if thay would thay wanted alot more then buying one off gunsamerica web site the browning in the stainless vertion offer's a person .( an all weather rifle ) the durablity of stainless the added strength of the browning action And it's box feed and the fact that there's the clip i had toyed with the idea of having the clip made longer so i could put more round's in to her and add atleast 2 more shell's that would give her 5 in the box and one in the chamber if i went 458 winchester.. then i got to thinking about lugging this thing around .. There is Not one thing wrong with the marlin G GS or cowboy vertion's as thay are thay have proven to be far more rifle then people ever thought and can handle alot.! more PSI .... I tryed to find a few of the letter's that were written from Dave to me and some i responded to on the topic about the convertion's to 50-110 i will keep looking if and when i do i will post thenm if you like also those written by Randy garrett on his new bullet's for the 45/70 Sorry for getting so long winded here | |||
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Quote: Heres another quote for you, "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link" (cant remember who said that first either.)  Same with a rifle action. Its not so much the alloy of the metal that matters but design of the locking mechanism. | |||
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kinda like the tire's on a B 52 ? | |||
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"Heres another quote for you, "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link" (cant remember who said that first either.) Same with a rifle action. Its not so much the alloy of the metal that matters but design of the locking mechanism. " The information referred to the strength of the stainless cylinder vs the Carbon. I would assume in this case that the receiver and chamber strength in stainless is greater than that of the Blue models. A number of years ago writers (15 yrs+) did blown up comparisons of Carbon steel vs Stainless and Carbon model always gave up the ghost first! It seems to me that the 336 receiver was not beefed up in the front or the rear as were Win receivers! I agree the weakest link for both rifles is the lock up action parts. But can any one show me a 450 Alaskan in a Winchester lever action? I'm not sure what tires have to do with this...  | |||
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Dave Clay has built a 50/110 on a Marlin 336 action. I have handled it at his shop. He said that he just did it to prove it could be done. He doubts that he would ever do one for a customer becuase it requries extensive mods to the rifle and is way to expensive compared to doing in on an '86 Winchester, which is relatively easy in comparison. | |||
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Quote: Way to expencive ? The cost of the convertion from a Mod 86 in 45/70 to 50-110 is 2500.00 Doller's So you were at his shop ? the new building or the old one Becouse i talked to the man myself not more then 3 week's ago on the phone again... about doing another convertion Strange that he told me he has never done a mod 366 action into a 50-110.......... I will be calling today | |||
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