I would like to know if a lever action is suitable for a Dangerous Game Rifle? What cartridge would you recommend?

Yep...

Any lever in 45/70 with the right loads

And then there is the Marlin 1895M in 450 Marlin.

These will work for anything that walks, crawls, or swims on this earth.

I'd use a beefed up 45-70 with heavy loads for Brown Bear or Grizzly, but I would not use them for an African Buffalo hunt. Unless of course I'd won the AR 45-70 raffle last year

I just feel there are better choices for African game. Although I am sure that MOST of the time the beefed up 45-70 loads would work on anything, it is the other part of MOST......the exceptions that would keep me from taking a lever action rifle to Africa for dangerous game.

I think a lever action would be a great gun for leopard or lion. But I would want a big bolt action (or double) in 375 or 416 to chase Buff. I would never even consider a lever gun for elephant.

[ 11-19-2003, 21:23: Message edited by: Iron Buck ]

I've never hunted dangerous game, but the main beef against them as dangerous game rifles is the complexity of their actions. A bolt action or double rifle is considered by many experts to be more reliable. Also, you can't shoot the really powerful, big-bore stopping calibers out of a lever gun. A hot rodded .45-70 would probably do for any game on earth though, but there is the off chance that it wouldn't knock them down as good as say a .416 Remington, .460 Wby, etc will.

Winchester made a 50 Express at one time on the 1886. I'm not sure I would call that a DGR, or not.

I've got an Africanized 1895 Winchester chambered in the 411 Hawk. Shooting 350 grain Swift A Frames and am starting to work up loads for the 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore. Its handy as can be, with a 22" Douglas Premium XX Barrel, Express V rear sight and banded front sight. Action is slick as glass.

If anyone wants, I can email images. I just don't have a web host to post images on, though.

[ 11-21-2003, 00:15: Message edited by: Yukon Jack ]

Yukon Jack,

That sounds like a wild lever action! We need to see pics here. Go to Hunt101 They will host the pics for free.

[ 11-20-2003, 05:29: Message edited by: Iron Buck ]

Well, let's try this.

Yukon Jack, Nice looking rifle.

According to what I have read, a .411 Hawk such as Yukon Jack's can safely be loaded to duplicate the .450-400 Nitro Express (400-grain bullet at 2150 fps). Most of the old Afria hand's with lots of experience agreed that the .450-400 Nitro Express was suitable for anything there, though they would prefer something bigger for elephant in heavy cover.

I am having a custom 1895 take-down built now, and looked hard at the .411 hawk, but finally opted for the .375 Hawk which is only about 150 fps behind a .375 H&H Magnum. I am primarily interested in the 1895 as an elk rifle. However, it would work for dangerous game as well, as would an 1895 chambered for 9.3x62.

I like Jacks rifle and caliber..A 400 gr. .411 bullet has lots of SD and enough velocity to work, in fact I have killed nemourous Buffalo with the 450-400s in both 3 and 3-1/4" length with perfect satisfaction...

I don't consider the 45-70 worth beans for dangerous game and not much better for such as elk...I have seen it used a lot and used it and the 45-90 myself, never impressed me at all. Will a 45-70 kill a buffalo of course it will, but should he charge would you be properly armed, no you would not be.......

I suspect a 50-140 would work, but like all black powder cartridges you can get the velocity but in many cases you have to sacrifice SD, through reduced bullet weight and that just does not work..

Yes, I know you can kill a Grizzley with a .22 or a buff with a Hornet, but that holds little water with me...

Ray,
This rifle is not going to Africa, its an Alaskan "fighting" rifle to use where the big brown bears are while I'm hunting other critters.

There's a couple of reasons this won't go to Africa. One, to get those velocities (2,000 fps +) with the 400 grain Woodleigh's, pressures are right at 60,000 psi. Matter of fact, I haven't worked up a 400 grain load that gives 2,100 fps yet with my 22" barrel. I've broken 2,000 fps, but not 2,100 and am not likely to try. I've haven't seen any pressure problems with the brass yet (well one failed, but I honestly feel it was a bad piece of brass), but do know I'm at the rifle's pressure ceiling at ALASKAN Temperatures. What would happen to the load pressure when I double the ambient temperature? Likely to cause bad things to happen to me or to a rifle that I really like and want to continue to use.

It just doesn't make sense to run the ragged edge on pressure and the rifle's capability to prove a point. If I were going after Cape Buffalo in Africa, I'd definitely look at taking a 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby, minimum. After watching Saeed's latest video, I've concluded those dang buff's take a lot of killing to put down. Geez, Saeed can shoot, no doubt about that, and his rifle is chambered for "enough" cartridge. His bullets are good bullets and peformed well, but those buff's didn't seem to go down too easy. To watch Saeed put all those shots into the Buff's wheelhouse with that 375/404 and then to have them run off with plenty of life left in them was something.

No, the 411 stays in Alaska for the bears. There are much more suitable rifles and chamberings to take to Africa.

Yes, Saeed is an excellent shot but Buff are tough and few die with less than three or four shots, unless one just quits shooting and lets them run off and run out of gas...

I really think you jazzed up that Mod 95 with the quarter rib, barrel band swivel and sight..Looks fantastic, I may have to build me one of those...great approach on your part...If you could get 2000 FPS with that long .411 bullet, with all its sectional density, I think you would have a decent Buff rifle..the original 404s and 450-400s actually ran out at about that as opposed to the claimed 2100 plus...when a bullet is that long for caliber then velocity is less important...Add a 350 BarnesX to your gun at 2100 and presto you got a buff gun in the making...It reminds me of the 10.75x68, it just needs a little help to get the job done....

Thanks for the compliments Ray. I had that rifle built for a specific purpose, so everything about it has a purpose. I have a peep to go on it now, but when hunting the devil's club and alder jungles where the big bears roam, there is nothing faster than express sights.

I'm getting a shade over 2,350 fps with the 350 grain Swifts. I have pushed them a little faster, but am comfortable with the pressures at 2,300 or so. I'll keep my loads around that. Should be good enough for Sitka deer or Moose at the opportunity distances I will use this rifle.

Yukon Jack,
Who built your lever gun for you? It is a very nice looking firearm!!!

Hawkeye47

Fred Zeglin at Z-Hat Custom in Wyoming built this rifle. http://www.z-hat.com/

He did a pretty good job.
I can't remember if I posted any of the particulars, so I will here.

The rifle started off as a NIB Miroku Winchester M1895 chambered in 270 Win. Since there just wasn't enough barrel to rebore, it was rebarreled with a Douglas Premium XX cut back to 22". A Dakota Quarter Rib was added with one fixed express V and two folding leaf V's. The fixed V was to be cut dead on for the 400 grain load at 100 yards. The two folding V's are to be cut for the 350 grain Swift A-Frame. I haven't cut these yet, as I'm still in load development and am waiting for North Fork to release their 360 grain 411 bullet. I don't know if the NF will work in this rifle, but am waiting just in case.

A barrel band sling swivel was installed and a NECG banded front sight installed. The stock was cut back to accomodate a Pachmyer Decelerator recoil pad. The action and trigger were worked over. The trigger is set at about 4 lbs, about the best Zeg could do with the rebounding hammer. I've also picked up a Marbles tang sight for shooting lighter bullets and lighter charges at the range.

I don't know if it is the recoil pad or not, but even the heavy loads I've fired through this just aren't that bad. Recovery time on target is very quick.

The one hinderance in the whole setup is the slanted magazine box. Bullets can't be loaded to near the lands because of the tapered box. The top cartridge could be loaded to touch the lands, but the bottom cartridge in the box has to somewhat shorter.
Here's another image or two of some of the particulars.

At one time the Winchester 71 in .348 Win. was a favourite guide gun in Alaska.

HI,

I have a custom made win86 by Dave Clay, it is now a 50-110.I have chron a 525 grain bullet over 2200 fps.I am now working on my own cast bullets as no one made a 570WFN. I thing I will get between 2000-2100 fps with this bullet SD of the 570is .313. I am in the process of moving so once I am set-up I can start to chron the 570 bulllets and find out. Thanks,Kev

I expect a BLR in 9.3X62 would suffice.

How about the trusty 405 Win. The choice rifle of Teddy Roesevelt. Didn't Winchester make a special run of these guns last year and Hornady is making ammmo for it now. If was good enough for Teddy in Africa then it is good enough for the rest of the world. Just my opinion.

I agree with the 405 WIN. I also owned a Marlin 45-70 and found it to be very capable. I used it on elk and deer and old water heaters. It always worked wonderfully with Hornady bullets.

I noticed that there is a 405 for sale locally ($1100). Its a new Winchester 95.

Does anyone know what these are worth and how many made?

DPhillips,

Beautiful rifle! All your modifications flow together and I'm a sucker for the schnable forearm. Practical and stunning both!

I've never like the looks of the 95 that much but after looking at yours my opinion has changed.

Thanks Henry. By the way, the wood is original from the factory. Lucked out I guess.

I have a nice Browning 1886 Carbine that has been converted to .45-90 WCF. It will toss a 405 gr. Woodleigh bullet out at 2150 fps with ease and it works every time... I've loaded it higher, but the kick starts to get to you in the light 22" carbine version. That load is plenty good for any animal I'll ever tackle, as I'm not planning on ever shooting any elephants.

I've often day dreamed about building the "Ultimate Lever Gun". I've wondered about starting with a '95 Marlin in 45-70 that would accept a quality low power scope, rebarrelled to .411 caliber. There are enough heavy bullets around in that caliber that are suitable for a tubed magazine. For the cartridge, how practical would a .348 Winchester case necked up and blown out be for a beefed up action. I assume the case would have to be shortened a hair, or the action slightly opened up, or maybe both.? With lighter bullets it would be more than good medicine for hog hunting or black bear over bait, and with the heavy bullets, look out! Any thoughts on this?

[ 11-28-2003, 22:08: Message edited by: SST ]

The .405 used by Teddy wasn't exactly a success, he and his big butted kid wounded about as much as they killed if you will read the book....It also got the famous Bwana Cottar killed by a Rhino as I recall....A common problem with folks who insist on making a dangerous game rifle out of calibers that simply are not and loading them hot is only making a jam get you in worse trouble..but some never learn, they don't want to .....

The .348 case can be made into some real thumpers, I have played with it in the past and it works great for wildcats on a single shot action or to a lesser extent on lever actions. Consider the number of good calibers out there for dangerous game it seems a little silly to try and make a silk purse out of a sows ear....

Teddy's 405 wasn't a great success because of the crap bullets available then.

I believe it would fare much better nowadays.

Ray,
I guess my post was a little off target, since the original post was regarding lever guns for dangerous game. I was simply thinking about a general purpose thumper for anything from deer to elk in the timber. Something that had more oomph than the .358 Winchester could offer, yet faster and flatter shooting than the big bore lever guns.

The .444 Marlin really comes into its own only with the heavier bullets, but it gives up a lot of trajectory at ranges much beyond your zero with the 300's. The 45-70 is a wonderful cartridge that has weathered the test of time, but it's far more than what's needed for deer, and with 500gr of lead, it too, is a relatively short range proposition.

The 450 Alaskan is a real thumper, but too much of a good thing for my purposes. Also, I'd want to use an action that accommodates a scope in the normal fashion. The '95 Marlins are inexpensive and easy to acquire. Just sounded like a good starting point for something exotic.

After all, like you said, there are already plenty of good cartridges out there. And I don't NEED to build a wildcat cartridge on a customized lever gun. But like I keep telling my wife, "What's need got to do with it?"

Hawaiian_Hunter,



While I am waiting for you to explain why the Taylor knock down number doesn't apply to a 12 gauge slug gun, I though I might take the time to explain to you the REAL reason that the 12 gauge slug doesn't penetrate as well as the 45-70 does , even though Taylor's knock down number says that the 12 gauge is a much better choice.



Remember my earlier statements about momentum density, well here are the momentum densities for a few loads:



500 Jeffery Improved shooting 570gr Woodleigh solid at 2480 fps - 368.4 lb/in sec. Typical penetration ~ 7' of bison skull and body (essentially complete pass through). Taylor knock down number - 102



405 Winchester shooting a 400 grain Woodleigh at 2100 fps - 337.1 lb/in sec. Should penetrate ~ 60" of bison skull and shoulder. Taylor knock down number - 49



45-70 shooting a 400 grain HC at 2150 fps - 277.9 lb/in sec. Should penetrate ~ 25" of bison skull and shoulder, or several feet of venison. Taylor knock down number - 56



50 BMG API military load - 536.5 lb/in sec. Typical penetration ~ 1" mild steel plate at 100 yards. Taylor knock down number - 149



12 gauge slug - 550 grains at 1600 fps - 112.9 lb/in sec. Typical penetration ~ 9 in of venison. Taylor knock down number - 91



22 Long Rifle shooting 36 grain bullet at 1740 fps - 24 lb/in sec. Typical penetration ~ 3.5" of rabbit. Taylor knock down number - 1



Still waiting for your explanation. Is the 12 gauge shotgun slug a better killer than 3 of the five cartridge/bullet combinations listed above?



Scott



By the way, I am not bent out of shape. I am just pointing out the fact that you are full of, well "point of view".