Just in case some of you don't look at the reloading forum, I would appreciate any thoughts on this topic, which I have run there:

I am trying to load some 235gr Woodleigh Hydrostatics for my 375 Big Bore and would prefer not to encroach on the powder space too much with the long mono if possible. The space between the bolt face and rifling contact exceeds 2.8 inches but OAL quoted everywhere appears to be 2.56".

Is the OAL predicated by the lifter and bolt opening or can I risk stretching it, say one-eighth inch, if only for cartridges fed straight into the chamber?

I don't think you will be able to stretch it 1/8th inch. But, you could stretch it a little for straight feed. I would look at a powder that took up less space, like Reloader 7.

As you noted the 375BB does have a long throat and you could load longer if inserting straight into the chamber. For cartridges that will feed from the mag you will need to keep to an OAL that will feed and cycle through the mag and action (around 2.55")

Not sure I'd do it in case I mixed up the cartridges and jammed a longer shell in the feed mechanism.

What are you planning to hunt with the Woodleigh monos?

Thanks guys.
As it happens, buckeyeshooter, I will be using Reloder 7 but had only got as far as resizing and priming. Glad to hear Re7 doesn't take up much room; I have previously loaded 225gr Hydros for my Sako 338WM and found the short throat/long-bearing bullet/powder bulk meant I could barely fit more than Geoff McDonald's suggested starting load of 63 grains of AR2209, even using a long drop tube.

OK, JFE, I will endeavour to follow your advice. After only ever loading only for bolt-actions with generous magazine lengths, where keeping back from the rifling lead was the problem, the irony of the 375BB's excess free bore amazes me.

As you may have guessed, I usually hunt sambar with the old 338. However, my kids and visitors sometimes come hunting and don't always have a suitable rifle to use. The 'Big Bore' by modern standards is barely a sambar rifle, even with 250-grainers, but I was hoping that maybe these Hydros would make it more effective if I could get the velocity up a bit.

I believe they're discontinued now, but see if you can find some Hornady 220gr FN bullets. More room in the case cf mono pills.

The 375BB has surprising ballistics for such a small case. The throating of this cartridge is very unusual for a levergun rifle cartridge - most have little to no throat. The 375's throating is similar to that used in the 458 Win Mag and is also designed to allow a small case to achieve pretty good velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
I believe they're discontinued now, but see if you can find some Hornady 220gr FN bullets. More room in the case cf mono pills.

The 375BB has surprising ballistics for such a small case. The throating of this cartridge is very unusual for a levergun rifle cartridge - most have little to no throat. The 375's throating is similar to that used in the 458 Win Mag and is also designed to allow a small case to achieve pretty good velocities.

Yes, JFE, you have read my mind.

I just started loading the Woodleighs a few minutes ago and found I could not even get them down to 65mm OAL with the starting load (30.5gr), which was half a grain lower than the Nick Harvey book started at.

I might make a few long ones for hand feeding, though I can't see the loading getting too high.
A mate has suggested shortening some .38/55 brass because it is thinner and holds more powder but I think the gain would be marginal.

The good news is the first owner of my rifle threw in 200 of the Hornady 220gr FNs you mention, so most of my powder will end up pushing them.

Cheers

As far as I know 375 chambers are cut to take 38/55 brass, regular length (2.085") though, not the longer Starline cases (2.125"). Best to check that in your rifle though.

38/55 cases do have more capacity but this is because they have thinner sidewalls designed for BP pressures and IMO aren't a good choice for high pressure loads. I use them for lower pressure loads. They seem to be fine for high speed 38/55 loads, i.e. 250 gr pills at 1600-1800 fps. Anything in excess of this I like to use 375 brass, which is becoming rare to find or reformed 30/30 cases.

Thanks JFE. I think my idea of making it into a real sambar rifle is looking like a pipe dream now.

It would be OK for following hounds, of course, but I don't have any. An old hound man wrote years ago that even the .44/40 was all right for sambar out to 70 yards. Were I to get the 220gr Hornady bullets to 2200fps I might have almost twice that power - but I'd prefer a heavier bullet despite the smaller, .375" diameter.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks guys.
As it happens, buckeyeshooter, I will be using Reloder 7 but had only got as far as resizing and priming. Glad to hear Re7 doesn't take up much room; I have previously loaded 225gr Hydros for my Sako 338WM and found the short throat/long-bearing bullet/powder bulk meant I could barely fit more than Geoff McDonald's suggested starting load of 63 grains of AR2209, even using a long drop tube.

OK, JFE, I will endeavour to follow your advice. After only ever loading only for bolt-actions with generous magazine lengths, where keeping back from the rifling lead was the problem, the irony of the 375BB's excess free bore amazes me.

As you may have guessed, I usually hunt sambar with the old 338. However, my kids and visitors sometimes come hunting and don't always have a suitable rifle to use. The 'Big Bore' by modern standards is barely a sambar rifle, even with 250-grainers, but I was hoping that maybe these Hydros would make it more effective if I could get the velocity up a bit.

Reloader 7 will work well as far as getting good velocity and not filling the case too much.

The 375 works pretty well on Sambar using the 220 gr Hornady bullet. One hound hunter that I know, in his younger days, took 11 Sambar of varying sizes using that combination.

The old 38/55, which is essentially a lower power version, is still used by Canadians to harvest Moose and elk.

If you don't cast, the heaviest jacketed bullets you can buy are Barnes Originals - they make a 250gr cup and core FN bullet. You will likely need to special order them in.

I use cast in mine and have moulds that cast bullets up to 300 gr in weight. A 300gr FN pill at 1850 fps is an awesome penetrator.

You should try it first before ruling it out. It's performance is disproportionate to its size. The main limitation is using open sights in thick country, low light conditions. For hound hunters that prefer leverguns with open sights, it's a great combo in a carbine that only weighs 6 1/4lbs.

I do have a 275gr mould but have never used it.

I use a sourdough front sight, which picks up light well, and a Lyman peep with the disc removed. It is a bit prone to damage, though, and when I get a really good load zeroed I'm going to glue a block on the right side to stop it being bent down against the receiver.

Play it safe, use the factory OAL to get proper feeding with any Win. mod. 94 action..What your doing is interesting, but without merit IMO, you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear!

Thanks Ray, sorry to hear you see no point in the exercise. But, as it is panning out, yours would seem a fair summation. On the other hand, I still have a bunch of the monos, which cost me more than $3 each, and I would hate to waste them.

With care I can keep the long cartridges separate, to be inserted only into the breech. The problem after that might be follow-up lead-cores that have a similar zero, at least out to 100 yards. In double-rifle concepts, that would start with keeping their velocities down near that of the slow starter - defeating the original intent.

You might check with the levergunsmiths on the Levergun forums, I don't know just how far a Win 94 carrier can be "stretched" or modified but you can get some answers there.

I have a Marlin 336, originally a 30-30, that I modified the carrier slightly and also the exit port to handle a COAL of 2.65" and also the larger 458 cases and also made it a "switch barrel" with a 356 Win barrel(original 30-30 barrel bored and rechambered), a 444 Marlin and a rechambered to 458 WM 45-70, both OEM barrels. All the barrels can load out to 2.65" with specific bullets that include both flat points and spritzers. The 45-70 barrel can also shoot 458 WM trimmed to correct length and 450 Marlin cases that are sized to fit the chambers and rechambered with a 458 WM reamer. Those belted cases feed MUCH better than that god-awful rimmed 45-70 mess.

You can take the Marlin 336 out to handle 2.75" but that takes more work and higher "smith cost...

I found the actual velo gain to be minimally advantageous but ANY extra velo translated into extra striking energy. I did mo mods "just because" I wanted to see how they worked out being an OLD wildcatter...reality wise any thing you whack with a large caliber, heavy bullet won't know the difference of a few f/s or ft lb, but there is always the bragging rights that go along with one offs.

The other bug in the butter is having to partially remove the lever and bolt to get the longer rounds out or shoot them. I made up a knurled screw to make removing the lever easier.

After mucking about with load development and chrono'ing I have one nice load for each caliber with the longer COAL that I single load and, and make up the rest at the longest COAL that will work through the action and call it good and not bother with the small stuff.

Bottom line is load for the max chamber length and single load...mess about finding the longest length you can ACTUALLY work through the action forgetting about published COALS...or load to the max length that feeds and forget the miniscule powder/velo/energy loss...a 235 gr, 375 cal bullet at 2000-2100 fs should handle just about any beasty you point it at, and the actual approx. velo gain between a 2.56" and a 2.80" is less than 100 fs, roughly, according to QL using AA1680 which is a better powder if you can find it


Enjoy your toy.

Thanks Nonagonagin. I noticed in NZ last year that the Big Bore seems to be gaining some collector value (if only for its comparative rarity), so I'm reluctant to muck around with the mechanics or calibre, though I wouldn't mind those larger calibres to hunt with.

At the moment I'm thinking of trying a long drop-tube to see if I can get any more powder behind the 235gr mono. Then I might drop the 220gr Hornady loads to about the same velocity, hoping to get a similar zero at 100 yards with all loads, incl. the factory 250 grainers. If this is possible, I might be able to stick in my sight-arm support block and have some of my obsolete cases last a bit longer.

Let us know how it all turns out, always interested in such experimentation..sometimes it surprises us..

It is possible to increase the cartridge length in a 94 Win but it involves fitting and modifying a pre 64 carrier. I was going to do that but I acquired a less than collective 94 in 375 and instead had the chamber reamed out with a 308 reamer creating a 375/308 rimmed or in effect a 375/356.

There's about a 50% increase in capacity when using 300 gr cast pills. It doesn't feed rimless 308 cases as I'd hoped, but I will take it to another smith and see if he can tweak the feeding. With 94's it's a bit hit and miss if they will feed rimless cases.

I acquired a few hundred pieces 356 and 307 brass years ago when they were on sale for just such a conversion. The ability to use 308 brass would make it a lot easier to feed though.

Thanks JFE. A 50% increase in capacity? That's food for thought.

On the OAL question: Does anyone know the exact purpose of the green noses on the Woodleigh Hydros?

Can they be removed to shorten OAL without compromising M94 feeding?

The green nose caps were to make sure feeding was not going to be an issue according to the Woodleigh booklet I have.
Look up some of the articles by Paco Kelly on the 375 BB. I have a 375 in the Marlin 336, although they call it model 375. There should be no issues with it taking a Sambar, unless you take Texas heart shots with it.

Thanks, theback40. Paco's stories are certainly interesting but I couldn't see anything regarding the nose cap.

The trouble with sambar is that the Texas heart shot presents itself all too often. In fact that is how I shot the last one - but happened to be using a db .450/.400, which prompted a duck-shooting reaction.

As it happened, the 400-grainer hit him in the spine, where I think a .30'06 would have given the same result.

When originally introduced the Woodleigh Hydrostatics had no nose cap. The cap was subsequently introduced to allow them to feed well in bolt actions as a few users reported feeding problems. For the most part correctly tuning the feeding would have corrected the problem but Woodleigh chose the nose gap to make them work in all instances. For use in a levergun you don't want the cap on at all really.

If you do a search either here or on AHN there was a post on using the 235 gr Hydrostatic in a 375 Win on buffalo in northern oz. It was posted by someone who was trailing their performance before they were introduced to the public. IIRC there was one instance where a bull was hit through the boss. The bullet completely penetrated the skull, exited and then re-entered the back of the bull and was recovered somewhere near the tail end of the animal.

Thanks JFE. Just to save me ruining one $3 bullet (or disturbing the son who sleeps in the room where I keep the reloading stuff), do you know if you can just prise off the cap and load without it?

Looking at earlier Hydros, it's hard for me to see how the cap could be secured without the addition of some keying notches near the meplat.

I've only ever seen the early ones that never had the caps fitted. Probably easy enough to prise off.

Following your advice, JFE, I bit the bullet (used a screw driver, actually) and off came the cap. There is no keying underneath, just a short parallel bit in front of the concave 'ogive'* that grips it.

That cap adds at least three mm to the length of the bullet, so, if I find one or two feed OK without the cap, I make take them all off. If I change my mind, it appears they will stay on if put back, too.

As it happened, I did not order the caps and the dealer spontaneously discounted the extra three dollars they added to the price - so they don't owe me anything.

* a contradiction in terms, I guess. Please remind me of the correct one if you know it.

I had some luck with the 180 .308 corelokts in my 30-30 carbine, that I had left over..shot a couple of whitetail deer with them..They expanded but not much and the meat damage was hardly at all..The deer did make some 50 to 75 yard tracks but they did the deed..velocity was almost 1800 FPS at 12.5 yards. A nice culling load and I like saving meat..

I also used some old WW factory solids one time shooting deer to make sausage at our ranch..They worked better than I thought they would, deer ran maybe 30 to 50 yards and left good blood trails..not a bad bullet at all if you stick it in the right spot. My longest shot with the solids was just under a 100 yards and the others at 50 to 60 yards..filling out doe permits. 4 boned out deer to 1 pig is the perfect recipe.

Thanks Ray,
I guess solids in a big enough calibre would equal softpoints in a small one, with increased penetration, too.

I emailed the Woodleigh maker, Geoff McDonald, suggesting he make a shorter, hybrid Hydro by drilling a smallish dia. hole hole in the back and filling it with lead. He used to be a great correspondent but I haven't heard his thoughts on that one.

The good news is that my forcibly sub-loaded Hydros seem to shoot to the same point at 100-yards as the 250-grain factory load, which I prefer for deer hunting. The 200-grain factory and 220 Hornady handloads shoot way high and nowhere near as accurately.

You might consider a GS Customs flat point or a North Fork flat point or cup point and file them down to whatever is needed, they are solid monolithic bullets..and the flat point is deadly. also at that velocity you could use molded lead simi wadcutters, drop them out of the mold into cold water for hardness..just an idea or two.

Thanks Ray,
getting particular components not made here or from the big makers can be a bit problematic here. Even factory ammo can be a pain. I have just been duck shooting with steel twos and fours because the optimum three shot (for our species) was in short supply. The shop 400 yards away didn't receive any this year and two last-resort dealers had sold out.

Just as I spotted your post I was preparing to load some more Hornady 220grs - back to the base Re-7 load of 31 grains - hoping to bring the zero down to that of the 250 grainers and mono 235s.

If this works I will use the 220s just for pigs and, with a common zero, might stick a block under the r/h side of the Lyman peep's cross arm, to stop it being bent down again. (No. 1 son fell over coming down a hill when he was 12 and squished it against the receiver; since then I don't trust the design.)