45-70, hands down.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
45-70, hands down.

John

Dito

I'll take a 444 anyday!

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
-----------
The wide availability of factory ammo in everything from mild to wild was the deciding factor over the .444.

+1

Don and DuggaBoye,

It's easy to say "444", but what I want to know is why you would say that.

What advantages does a .444 have over a .45/70?

45/70 a much better selection of bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
Don and DuggaBoye,

It's easy to say "444", but what I want to know is why you would say that.

What advantages does a .444 have over a .45/70?

2nd... Why?

quote:

Originally posted by Collins:

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
Don and DuggaBoye,

It's easy to say "444", but what I want to know is why you would say that.

What advantages does a .444 have over a .45/70?

2nd... Why?

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
-----------
The wide availability of factory ammo in everything from mild to wild was the deciding factor over the .444.

+1

???

I did not say "444".

I sold mine years ago due to the wide variety and availability of 45-70 brass, bullets,load data and loaded rounds.

I think the 444 is a fine round, the 45-70 makes more logistical sense.

Sorry DuggaBoye-O, I misunderstood. I thought the +1 was on the endorsement for the .444.

45-70, no contest. Love my Guide Gun.

I decided on the 45/70 over the .444 and the .450 for many of the reasons below. Another consideration might be the new .338 Marlin Express. If you check out the numbers the 45/70 and the .338 are the way to go. I use Warne Base and Warne quick detach rings and Cabelas Scope, My 45/70 is more accurate then I expected, and the .338 is just sweet, I prefer it over my 30.06, out to 400 yards I don't think it can get any better!

I dont own either, but i fail to see how a 45-70 would be any different, theres not an animal in the U.S. that could tell a difference. As far as bullets its a moot point. Now factory loads, yes the 45-70 has more but most are under loaded because of all the older rifles out there. 444 loads are all hot because it was only loaded in the 1895. When you are talking about bullets this big theres really no difference. If i was to take on a cape buffalo, then maybe the 45-70 but a sane person would just jump up to a .458 win mag and be done with it.

Even with lever evolution bullets, both are medium range rounds unless your shooting bison with hard cast, which i dont think many folks do.

I went 444 because i can use 44 pistol bullets in a pinch or load the rifle bullets in the 44 mag pistol.

*** JACKFISH REVISITED ***


Jackfish's summary early in this thread , ( May 15-09 ) , --- is the skookum all-time best summary of the subject comparison .

I've read the historical fine tuning and polishing of his condensed statement for a few years . --- It's really complete and comprehensive now . --- Compliments , Jackfish .

Although we've gone around a bit on earlier threads , analyzing each word and meaning , -- ( probably over-analyzing ) ; -- I would still point out that :

IF , in advance , you choose a bullet WEIGHT , that you want to load , ( as we handloaders often do ) , -- perhaps because of the size of the anticipated game , etc. etc. --- THEN THE .444 WILL YIELD MORE SECTIONAL DENSITY ,
( of course ) , -- than the .45-70 .

Having said that , Jackfish has got the long and short of it .

----------- MMCOUGAR .

.444 - just to be different. And because it was the first Marlin big bore

I have a .444 and .450 guide gun.

.444 vs. .45-70

That's why I don't have one, because I never could decide between the two.

I lean towards the .45-70 because of the sectional density in its (slowpoke) standard factory loading. But I don't mind the fact that it's a slowpoke because I don't intend to take shots of more than 100 yards and I wouldn't intend to shoot anything larger than deer.
I would mainly be interested in the .45-70 for the nostalgia factor, but also the fact that it's generally a fairly low-pressure cartridge. To my mind, this also means lower maintenance of the rifles (I suppose.)

Somebody has to defend the 444!

I have owned one since 1981.. I bought it and my buddies had to go 45/70s just to show "one upmanship" on me..

My 444 has not been intended for me to take it hunting in Alaska, but I did carry it with, when I went to Alaska for a summer one year back in 89.

The 444 has a longer range than my buddies' 45/70s... when we were all using factory loads..
the 444 was also more accurate than their 45/70s... we all had Marlins..

handloading opened a whole Disneyland of possibilities, especially with the 444...

contrary to those that need more power for some reason, I found handloading gave a lot more flexibility...

factory loads gave ONE bullet choice...handloading gave tons, especially since it takes the same bullets as the 44 Rem Mag.

nowadays I load pretty much Hornady XTPs in my 444..I've also found that since the bullets are not overly aerodynamic, I can download the cartridge significantly and not lose a whole heck of a lot point blank range..

Since the XTPs are designed for pistol velocities, they open up at relatively low velocity, and the heavier ones are more than able to hold up to the faster velocity if you want to push it up..

So I load up on one end, the 200 grain XTP to about 800 to 1200 fps, for the kids to shot..with MINIMAL felt recoil...yet the kids love it, because it will cut a sappling in half with one shot... or a ( Christmas tree sized) pine tree in half with a couple of shots..

For hunting with it, I use the 300 grain XTP, loaded to about 1750 fps, with a charge of SR 4759...at the 150 yd Wood ranges it is used at, it will more than do whatever a 45/70 will do at the same ranges...

if you think you need more thump, I have a few friends that shoot some of those Buffalo Bore loads, with 335 grain bullets..

however with the 300 XTP at the speeds I am loading them, I never saw the need or the expense... what I have works just fine..

I guess I like the 444 because it is considered the underdog.. but for what I want out of a bigger bore lever action, it has done more than I ever needed to ask of it..

Since I am not hunting grizzlies with it, it more than meets the intended needs..besides if I was hunting grizzlies, I wouldn't be using a lever action.. and I wouldn't be using a 45/70 chambering either..

I'd be toting a 375 H & H, or more probably a 416 of some sort...

But when it comes to the choice or the 444 or the 45/70.. give me the 444!

( but on the other hand, I sure would like to have a Marlin chambered in 40/65! for nostalgic reasons...)

I've owned about a dozen 45/70's over the years. Still have 6. I've owned exactly 2 444's, still have 1. For all that, an argument could be made for either. Since I handload ALL my ammo, factory ammo offerings are not an issue. The 45/70 is more powerful at the upper levels. It's more common. It has a large dose of nostalgia attached. My two .444's seem to have been slightly more accurate than my 45/70's, on the average. With the right bullet the .444 will shoot all the way through any animal you point it at, including the big bruins of the far North.
So just own both, I do!

45-70; there is no comparison. For 10 reasons, most of which have already been explained.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I have had 4 different 45-70's in my life, and even though I have not held on to them, given the choice between the 2 you asked about, I would take the 45-70 any day.

oops, I see I chimed on on this back in Dec.. must have slipped my mind.. well since I already typed it... I'll just leave it..

with no disrespect meant here to Crazy horse...

this is exactly why I bought the 444 back in 1981.

of course my buddy, had to do his usual one upmanship on me and got a 45/70.

I have never felt the need to get a 45/70. The 444 has more than accomplished everything that I could ever ask of it.

Since I started handloading, even more so..

and I don't make it with stout loads, but the exact opposite.

I load strictly XTP bullets from Hornady in it.
preference is the 300 grainer. I load it to about 1700 to 1800 fps. Those bullets are so lacking in anything resembling aerodynamics, that even with that much drop in MV, I lose about 10 to 15 yds of point blank range..

which I can easily make up by knowing the rifle.

those XTPs more than make up with performance on game or anything else they hit, especially the 300 grainer.

oh, and recoil is reduced about 40 to 50%. yet it is a 150 to 175 yd rifle any day of the week.
which is all I ever asked of it.

while folks will tell you there are more loads available for a 45/70.. well I will counter that if you can live with them, any load data for a 44 Rem Mag in a 444 case, will give you the EXACT same MV as listed with those loads in a lever action 44 Mag, with a lot more accuracy.

A 45/70 may statistically have more "punch"... but when hit with a 300 grain 44 caliber XTP, I've seen no animal requiring anything more to embrace getting terminated.

I don't mean to undermine a 45/70, but a 444 has never made me feel I needed more than it has to offer...

please I like having the less popular round...

one other cartridge I have always thought about making due to the same reasons, are the 40/65 and the old 33 Winchester.

saw some rebarreled Marlin 1895s in a gunshop when I was in Oklahoma on business, that a gunsmith buys new ones, and then rebarrels them to 40/65, with a 26 inch barrel, for cowboy action shooters.

Told me he had a customer who ordered one, and paid for it, then died before it was done. The widow didn't want it, so he finally sold it to another cowboy action shooter. This guy evidently was going to meets and was having folks impressed with it, ran down the name of the gunsmith, and were ordering one for themselves.

he was selling them from $1800 to $2400 each!
and was telling me he had a waiting list for them that was quite long.

I wasn't going to order one, but loved the concept. I can see building one some day. of course the list of things I'd like to build, that you can't buy is long!

Also in favor of the .444-and probably not recommended-when I had one I could accurately shoot .44 mag ammo through it-single shot. Still for serious hunting I would prefer the 45-70 loaded hot.

quote:

Originally posted by Al Agurkis:
Also in favor of the .444-and probably not recommended-when I had one I could accurately shoot .44 mag ammo through it-single shot.

I seriously doubt this. The head of the 44 Mag is smaller than the 444 by 0.014", the rim is .003" thinner, and the bullet would remain unsupported in the chamber for almost an inch as it raced toward the rifling unlikely to hit it square. More likely a ruptured case and wild fliers than any kind of accuracy.

I have a 444 marlin model 444s and have used it on pigs to good affect here in australia even when they have over a inch of dried mud body armour on them. but here in AUS it is harder to get brass and pills for it but the 45-70 is still gaining favour here in no due part to the greater range of loaded ammo, pills and reloading options.

If i was to buy load ammo for my 444 here it is between $60-75 per 20 what do you guys in the states pay?

45/70 in a lever carbine is perfect for heavy game in heavy woods. This is the favored rig for coast range Roosevelt Elk. Big bullets, big holes, and with a carbine in the woods your not going to be shooting 100 yds in most instances.

The Marlin 1895GG in 45-70 is great. Mine is the ported model with other mods by Wild West Guns such as trigger, loop lever and ejector made a world of difference. I hunt elk in heavy dark timber where big grizzlys live. The North Fork 350 gr. .458 flat point bullet will take anything that walks anywhere in the world if you shoot straight. Good luck

quote:

If i was to buy load ammo for my 444 here it is between $60-75 per 20 what do you guys in the states pay?

Remington 240 $27 to $40

Hornady 265FP $27 to $40

Buffalo Bore 270,300,335 $48 to $66

CorBon 225TSX, 280, 305Pen $53 to $77

Grizzly 320CP $45 to $61

Grizzly 300PUNCH $88 to $99

I have both and that ends the debate over which is best ! Flip a coin ! That's what I do when I don't know which to carry !

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish;I seriously doubt this. The head of the 44 Mag is smaller than the 444 by 0.014", the rim is .003" thinner, and the bullet would remain unsupported in the chamber for almost an inch as it raced toward the rifling unlikely to hit it square. More likely a ruptured case and wild fliers than any kind of accuracy.

I've had three or four .444 Marlins, and used to shoot .44 Specials and .44 mags in them quite often. The accuracy isn't the best, and the cases bulge slightly, but they were fun to shoot and worked just fine. Never had a split case, or any other problem. I don't advocate it, but they do work.

I have owned ten or eleven 45-70 Marlins over the years, and prefer them to the .444, but wouldn't turn one down if it was offered to me.

There were many claims in the gun rags that the old 1:38 Micro Groove won't stabilize the 300 gr Hornady XTP. The last .444 that I owned shot them better than the thin jacketed 240 gr pistol bullets. They were very accurate.

I presently own three 45-70s, two '95 Marlins, one is a '70 series straight grip customized by Turnbull with Micro Groove rifling, an "1895 Limited V" with Ballard rifling, and a Shiloh Sharps #1 Sporter.

My favorite load is a 475 gr hard cast bullet with 26 gr of AA5744. I have them sighted in at 300 yds. They are all very accurate, more so than any .444 I have owned.

I'm smiling because I just took out a "Rogue" water bottle on the spur road in the back ground, off hand at approx. 300 yds. with the Turnbull Custom. I love Marlins...