Has anyone performed the old wet newspaper test on these 2 side-by-side? As I've mentioned in a couple other posts, I'd like to get something in a compact lever gun for up close hunting in the thick stuff. Black bear and whitetail will both be targets. My reason for asking specifically about penetration is that I would like to go with the cartridge that will most reliably produce exit wounds on the bear. Because of their thick hair, I'm worried that and entry wound only won't produce a good blood trail and may make wounded animals difficult to recover. In addition to experiences with tests at the range, on-game performance experience would be helpful as well.

Thanks,
Bob

There is such a wide range of bullet types and velocities to consider it's pretty hard to make a useful comparison. FWIW while I have long admired the 358 Winchester I do not own one and my woods rifle is a Marlin 1895G in 45/70. Mine likes Winchester 300 grain Partition factory ammo very, very much and I can tell you the Remington factory 405s leave a very nice blood trail when you run one through a whitetail.

I think it is six of one and a half dozen of the other. In all probablility, I think that either a 250 gr. bullet from a .358 or a 400 gr. bullet from a 45-70 would punch through both sides of a bear without too much difficulty. I do think that if I was hunting black bears and things got up close and personal that I'd probably rather have the 45-70 with hot loads, but I wouldn't get my feathers ruffled if all I had was a .358 and 250 gr. bullets. I think either one would get the job done.
Paul B.

I agree with the above.Bullet selection makes all the difference in penetration.In test done on the .450 Marlin,penetration depth with jacketed bullets went from 13 inches with the 300 grain Sierra to 26.5 with the 300 Nosler PP with the various 350 and 400 grain bullets including the 400 grain Swift A-Frame falling inbetween.I would only assume,the same would be said of the .358.

Jayco

I have a 450 Marlin and have done a fair bit of work with 35 caliber bullets.

Given equal sectional density and speed penetration will be similar. The 358 gives a bit more speed with bullets of similar S.D. With soft bullets this speed will create more expansion limiting penetration slightly.

See http://www.35cal.com/35bullet_study/35bullet_study1.html a study I wrote on 35 bullet performance.

The energy of a hot loaded 358 and a 45-70 are similar but I'd give a stopping edge on big animals to the 45 and a trajectory edge to the 358. On light game however, I wouldn't be surprised if the quicker bullet expansion and energy pulse of the 358 would lead to faster kills.

In an unpublished study, done in Alaska, by a Federal Agency, the 45-70, Garrett 540gr bullet out penetrated everthing else tested. I spoke with the person who did the test, when I was in AK. I am trying to get a copy. The test medium was one inch pine boards. Here is a picture of the test set up.




The box was 48 inches long. Until I get the report I don't know the details of what loads penetrated how far.

My experience in whitetail hunts shows most 200 gr .358 cheap bullets to get complete penetration. I think from the forums information the 250 gr rn would do fine on bear and other heavy game. I use my 99 Savage brushgun with moderate loads in the 200 gr bullet. I have an idea my 280 gr cast bullet loads will do all necessary to a bear. My 45-70 loads, again on whitetail, have made only complete pass throughs. Never have recovered a bullet. Maybe a 350 to 425 gr flat nose hard cast at moderate speed would do well. It killed buffalo for years before the modern velocities and high tech bullets. Sorry my actual experience is limited. Maybe after this spring I can tell you about pigs in Texas with both the 45-70 Marlin and the 99 Brushgun. Maybe I will take the '86 in 33 WCF too. Too many medium bore calibers, not enough affordable big game close by! Good luck. Packrattusnongratus

Both should leave a fairly good exit wound on bear. My 450 marlin (hot laded 45-70) was able to punch clean through a 2' redwood tree at 75 yards with a 350 gr jacketed flat nose, I don't think anything bot a bear femur would come close. Between the two I would lean towards the 45-70 because of a better bullet selection (that and watching big holes appear at whatever you shoot at is kinda fun).

John

BBBH,

Do you have any idea how much a "2' Redwood tree" would cost back here? I'll take it even with the hole in it!! All I can afford is yellow pine.

quote:

100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!

I know it is bad manners to subject jump, but Lowrider 49 you got me with the "year of the 06" signature. I'm looking hard for a great one to celebrate with. Another Sako if I can find one.

There are a bunch of studies suggesting that hard lead bullets at low velocity penetrate like crazy.

I suugest that the lubericity of lead allows the bullets to slither through the target with a minimum of friction at low speeds.

I dont hunt animals that need that much penetration and I'd rather dump in a bit more energy transfer.

Some food for thought: both the old Powley Computer and the modern QuickLOAD predict the .358 Win can send the 310 gn Woodleighs from a 22" tube at 2000 fps, matching the old 400/350, used by some of the African hunters ca. 1900 for elephant. Not owning a .358, I've never tried it, but it could be an interesting experiment in handloading.

I own both and have killed with both,the 350 gr 45/70 hornady round nose have taken 1 moose and 2 black bear,all three were complete shoot throughs,the 358 kills just as dead and don't punish my old shoulder as much so thats my best friend since 89.Just an old mans opinion.Drop-Shot