Just ran the "Find" feature on Case Life, Case Stretching and Case Head Separations on this Board and did not find enough discussion to say I found anything worthwhile.

For those of you who have had ANY Straight Wall Case in a Lever Action for a good bit of time:

1. What is your "typical" Case Life, and please mention which cartridge you are referencing?

2. Have you had any Case Head Separations, approximate number of reloads on those cases?

3. Do you normally Full Length Resize, or Neck Size with a Carbide Die?

I'd appreciate any first-hand experience you all can share with me.

I have 40/65,40/90,45/70,45/90,50/70,50/110, all shoot around 20 reloads, some I have had to anneal after 10 shots, I use IMR 3031, and Hodgdons triple seven 3/F and Federal 215 Mag primers, My 1886 winchester is a 45/90 the rest are Sharps and Rolling blocks, I shoot wheel weights in all but the 1886, it wants jacketed bullets .I use RCBS Dies , carbide for hand guns only , Never had a head case seperation only cracks alone case wall, anelling after 10 shots will make them last longer, If you have a sloppy chamber they will not last at all . Mic in front of button , +.003 is max in front of button, more is a over sized chamberand brass will have a short life .

I have a Marlin 1894 in .357 Mag. I full length size with an RCBS carbide die. Never had a case separation but do get cracks on the wall after 5 - 10 loadings.

Case failure in straight sided cases is usually linear cracks
at the case mouth.

Generally cases get looking pretty scabby long before any failures occour, and particularly with pistol cartridge carbines
people usually have a LARGE reservoir of brass so cases simply don't get fired often enough for stretch toi be an issue

AD

I have a .45-70 and a .44 mag.
Just to back up what Allan said, I have a pool of a couple thousand .44 special cases and they get rotated in and out all the time, I keep ZERO records on number of relaods through the cases. They go to the range, get shot, go into the tumbler and go back in the storage buckets, and then get poured in the Dillon when needed. But many of them have been loaded 10 or more times. Zero case strech with medium loads. Lose one once in a while to a split.

I haven't lost any .45-70 brass to splits yet but they don't get shot nearly as much. 5 reloads maybe on some.

The 444 Marlin and the 45-70 Gov't are not straight-walled cases. Carbide dies are not an option.

So far it looks like Case-Body Splits have been seen by those that have responded rather than Case-Head Separations.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
The 444 Marlin and the 45-70 Gov't are not straight-walled cases. Carbide dies are not an option.

Hey jackfish, Are you saying that I can't use a 44Mag Carbide Die to resize 3/8" of a 444Mar Case-Neck?

Is there a problem created by doing it?

I have a 357 mag lever gun.

I've gotten 10 or more relaods on the same case. Never had it stretch much, and never had a case head seperation.

the cases usually get cracks in the top of the case or the primer pockets get loose.

I F/L resize with carbide dies.

I've been running the same batch of 100 cases though Mjolnir, my 45/70 Guide Gun, for a couple years now. I full-length resize for loading and have yet to lose one to case separation. They don't seem to stretch much over time, but many of my loads are Trapdoor-strength (Waters Type I). I sort of expected to see case neck splits, as I run a heavy roll crimp when using lead bullets, but I haven't seen any yet.

I've actually gotten 100 reloads out of some of the first Winchester 45-70 brass I bought in 1977. The key to extended case life is moderate loads (>28,000PSI), neck sizing with the Lyman 45 caliber short neck die, expanding with the Lyman 'M' Die, a light bullet crimp and annealing the case mouth before it becomes too brittle. All failures I've experienced with 45-70 brass have been case mouth splits. With proper loads, 45-70 brass just doesn't stretch that much.

HotCore, I suppose one could "neck size" 444 Marlin brass with a 44 Magnum carbide die. However, the result would possibly be no sizing at all around the case mouth, to perhaps a step up to 444 Marlin dimensions below where the case is acted upon by the 44 Magnum carbide die. One possibly would be better off partially full length sizing the 444 Marlin with a 444 Marlin full length sizing die.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
The 444 Marlin and the 45-70 Gov't are not straight-walled cases. Carbide dies are not an option.

I figured this was obvious enough that it din't require comment.

Hot Core, the only problem I can think of by only neck sizing .444 is that they may not chamber easily. Leverguns don't have harldly any caming force to seat or eject stuborn cases.

I neck size my .44 mags and .45 colts and occasionally I have this problem when shooting near max loads.

All in all, you're better off FL sizing just for garanteed feedability in a levergun.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Marlin:
...Hot Core, the only problem I can think of by only neck sizing .444 is that they may not chamber easily. Leverguns don't have harldly any caming force to seat or eject stuborn cases.

I neck size my .44 mags and .45 colts and occasionally I have this problem when shooting near max loads.

All in all, you're better off FL sizing just for garanteed feedability in a levergun.

Hey RM, I hear you about the Cartridges have the potential to be a Tight Fit. I asked the question prior to telling you all what I had in mind, which I should have done.

I was thinking about "lighter than normal" plinking Loads for some of the younger folks. Always seems to be kids wanting to handle the BIG firearms so they can One-Up their little buddies. I was thinking that maybe some 180-200gr bullets with some of Seafire's Reduced Blue Dot Loads might be fun for them. And at the levels I had in mind, Case Expansion might not be an issue.

Haven't assembled any of them yet, so it might be a lost cause. But, I do agree with both you and Jackfish that Neck Sizing has the potential to create Feed Problems with Loads strong enough to expand the Case.
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It has been at least 20 years since I messed with a Lever Action, and I am sure enjoying this one. When the Bolt is out, you can look through the BIG Bore and see your feet. And the regular Full Power Loads are not objectional at all with the 240gr bullets. Haven't tried any of the 300gr bullets yet, so I'll have to see if that still holds true for them. And I will be Full Length Resizing for them.

Any other tricks or hints you all care to toss out would be great. By the way, the reason I'd started the thread was a mention about Case Stretch in the Speer #13 on page 358 in the 357Mag Rifle. Just caught my eye and wanted to know if any of you had experienced Case Head Separations. Still looks like Case Splits is what everyone has actually experienced.

Much obliged for you all sharing your experience.

I have levers in 44 mag, 444, 45-70, 50 AK. The cases are always full length resized. The 44mag uses carbide dies. These have been fired 10+ times with no sign of wear. Case life depends on the type of loads used. The 45-70 cases last forever it seems with light 'factory' type loads but last only 6 or 7 loadings with +p type loadings (ie 400 grainer at 1700 or 350 grainer at 2000). The other chamberings have had the cases used 5 times at most and have yet to show 'growth' or signs of wear.

Hey Buckeyeshooter, Thank you for that list. Sounds like excellent case life to me.

I've been talking to some guys that used to participate in an Invitational Shoot with me about this and Mouth Splits seem to be what they remembered. But, we were all shooting "Revolvers", no rifles chambered for Revolver/Pistol cartridges.

Hot Core
I load 45 LC, 357 Mag and 454 Cassul in levergun. Beside reloading goof ups I've only had one casehead seperate (454 Casull) Bad brass! A couple split down side. Maybe to hot of a load.
Some of my 45 LC have had 100 + reloads from mild to wild. One or two case splits, 454 50+ reloads easy and I just got the 357 Mag so 5-10 so far no problems full length resize always!

Thanks Puma454. Have you described your Puma Rifle in another thread? Is it stainless?
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Tell you what fellas, ALL these reports of l-o-n-g, excellent Case Life sure do sound fine to me. I really appreciate all of your experienced responses.

I normally buy 500-1000 cases for a new rifle, go through an elaborate Case Prep Routine, do a Weight Sort and do a rigid Load Development for shooting at distance.

Just not doing that this time and it has been a real pleasure so far, nice groups with about anything I've put in the new 444Mar XLR.

Hot Core
Nope just a plain blued model! Just wanted a companion for my SRH 454! It's nice to only have to pack one or two boxes of ammo when I run around the Mountains of ID. And it also work when I want to pack in the Win 94 in 45 LC.

As for brass I just shoot and reload and shoot some more. I do have some Rem nickel in 45 LC that didn't seem to like hot loads-these are the ones that split! Use them every now and then for some pretty plinking loads! The only other nickel cases I have currently are Magtech for the 357 Mag so far so good time will tell.

I bought a bag of 100 for each caliber I reload for-probably last me as long as I'm able to shoot. Plus every now and then some good folks leave there brass so I just feel oblidged to reload them some!

Hot Core,

I don't own a 45/70.. or a 44 Rem Mag... in lever actions, I own a couple of 30/30s and a 444..the Marlin 444 is 1980 production,,that I bought new in Feb 1981.....

I reload with an RCBS die set and use a Lee Neck Crimp die on it...

Most of my handloading on the 444 has been doen using 44 Mag load data...

44 Rem Mag load data, in a 444 case in the rifle.. will yield the exact same velocities as posted for a 44 Mag...

However I assume these loads are less pressure than the 44 mag, being in a bigger case....

However, I am not sure what the life span of my cases are using the 44 Mag data, as I have lost very few cases due to fatigue...

Some of these cases have gone 12 to 15 reloads without problems yet....

It puzzles me also.. but I don't question it...

I have had to do very little trimming if any, along with it...

My usual preferred bullet for the 444 is Hornady's 300 grain XTP....

I have shot the 200 grain XTPs to velocities as low as 800 fps.. and they are working just fine... the lack of recoil almost makes the load feel like a big BB gun in the Marlin...yet at 50 to 75yds, even that load, will really blow a hole in a sapling....

Kids get real excited when you blow a small tree in half with a single shot....

Hey Seafire, Some of the first loads through the new 444MAR were 240gr XTPs using both "2400" and Blue Dot. Somewhere in all the Loads you posted on the Reloading Board, I believe you had mentioned 26gr of Blue Dot was MAX for your rifle. So I started Low and worked up measuring PRE as I went. In this new rifle, it seems that 24-25gr is MAX. But, I need to verify the Benchmark Pressure with a box of Factory Ammo, and then try the Loads in those cases.

Got it on the paper and then backed it up. Two shots made an enlarged hole with the Blue Dot at 100yds. The previous shots had made a nice group, so I went up 1gr and couldn't see the Hole. Second shot sent a clothes pin flying, so I knew where it went. Walked to the target and the first hole had apparently been directly in front of the clothes pin, so it just looked like the clothes pin. But the next one clipped the end of it making an overlapping hole for two shots. Amazing for me because I know I can't shoot that well on purpose any more. Had to stop at that time, but this one does seem to like the Blue Dot too.

Great info about the 44Mag Loads in the 444MAR which I was not aware of. Thanks for that insight.

It has been my experience, if you do not have a large supply of brass in straght wall cases you will get far more reloads from a non carbide sizing die.

I am still shooting some .44 mag cases in my revolver that have been loaded 40 times without a loss, heavy loads too. Any split cases I have had seem to occur with the first or second loading. I neck size my brass with the Hornady dies until they get hard to chamber, then full length once more.
I have had no problems with the Marlin yet either.
As far as the 45-70, Lyman makes a great neck sizing die that will tighten case tension nicely.
All you need do is keep an eye on ease of chambering if you are hunting with the gun.
The only cases I have had to trim more often are the 45-70 cases I annealed lightly. Seems to make the necks flow more and I worry about brass thinning there. Cases not annealed have not needed trimmed. I need case tension in my 45-70 revolver and don't like the idea of thinning necks.
My BPCR brass has never needed trimming and I have never lost a case because I don't size them.
I had some .44 brass that had so many loads in them I decided to retire them. I loaded them up and gave them to a friend. Be darned if he isn't still loading them. I told him to shoot them up and throw them away but he is cheap like me.