Guys, I wanted to do a little informal survey. I have a Marlinn guide gun in 45-70 that I don't shoot too much anymore as well as a Browning BLR in 450 Marlin. I usually shoot 400-405 grain bullets. That way, I can shoot the cheaper Speers at the range and use a bit better bullet to hunt with if necessary. There are so many fantastic 400 grain hunting bullets from Woodleigh (traditional and Hydros), North Fork, Barnes Busters, CEB #13s solids, etc. However, it occurs to me that I could also shoot the 350 grain Hornady bullets at the range and hunt with a 350 grain North Fork Solid or Cup Point solid.

Thus, I was wondering, in you 45 caliber lever gun, what weight bullet do you prefer?

Dave my first 45/70 rifle was a Ruger No1.

I loaded and killed deer first with 300gr bullets, then the 400gr Speer and then I tried the 350gr Hornady RN.

All worked great but I liked the 350 Hornady best, because it expanded on deer, but would also be tough enough for bear and elk.

Later I used this same bullet, with a little less powder in my Marlin, and my brother and brother in law use it in their Marlin Guide guns.

Now they are using the 350gr Hornady FP as it looks safer in a tubular magazine.

The load we all used was 53gr of IMR 3031.

This load has killed a lot of deer, seveal pigs and one black bear.

It is very accurate in all of the rifles we have shot it in.

Dave,
You might consider the Nosler 300 grain protected point bullet as loaded by Winchester in their .45-70 Supreme ammo. I liked that ammo so much in my 1886 .45-90 (the bullet devastated all game it hit - on one whitetail, it took out two ribs going in and 4 going out) that I bought and reloaded the PP bullets in 45-90 brass for my rifle. The bullet is good up to 2200 fps MV before it becomes a varmint load.
It has taken game from a blackbuck antelope up to a leopard and performed well on all.

The 300 gr Nosler Partition and similar Barnes will do a fine job.

Howdy from Canada. For my marlin 45/70 1895g, w/skinner sights: My first reloads were 350gr Hornady RN, over 50gr of Reloader 7, 2000fps. Great load for bears, put many in the pot from 30-150 yards, always got an exit, and good blood trails. Didn't always expand all that much on deer unless bone was hit but few deer ran and the furthest made it 50 yards or so with a good trail to follow. I got full penetration on bull moose broadside with an exit as well. I later switched to H322 as my local shop didn't get any Re7 in and used the Hornady 350gr FN with similar results as the RN. Both great bullets in the Marlin.
Later on I was playing around for a deer load but something that would handle cranky bears (got grizz here, hence the 350gr Hornady load) I contradicted myself and logic with a 'deer' specific load, so I went with the 300gr Remington hp with 57gr H322, (rem brass) for 2000fps, was accurate and dropped deer and actually a good size black bear by chance, not that the 300gr Remington is a bullet for elk/moose/large bears. Currently I'm loaded with some 400gr Hawks fn (0.35 jacket) @ 1800fps , hope to see how it works this year.
My gun really likes cast, I did take a bear with a 420gr Jae Bok Young 'crater' which broke shoulder bone (exited) and dropped the bear on a tidal flat @ 40 yards. I had glassed him from about a click away and stalked thru the grass and streams till the shot, it was an exciting hunt untill I packed him out thru a uphill forest of devils club! Back to the topic, both the 420gr and 550gr JBY gave good accuracy, the 550gr has only been for plinking so far. A friend of mine has 410gr mold that I use for powder puff plinking, over 11/12 grains of unique (forget the velocity 1000/1100?) which has .22LR recoil and excellent accuracy. That about covers it for me.

I guess I never answered your question as to a faveriote bullet. Apparently for me it varies!

400 grain Speer in the 45-70. Never had reason to use anything else for elk.

35 Years ago i had a Siamese bolt action converted to 45-70, bought Winchester and Speer 400 grainers, a couple hundred new cases, powder, etc.
My first year hunting I used the Speer bullets if I remember correctly. Never saw anything to shoot, legal.
I began casting that spring, bought 400 and 500 grain molds, both did well, very well. Then I bought a 445 grain Lyman mold which did excellent.
I've never seen any reason to use the remaining jacketed slugs.
A 445 grain cast slug of air cooled wheel weights does a fine job on our eastern white tail here in Virginia. And does it for maybe .05 per bullet.

Jim

In my 450M I shoot Speer 400

I hunt wit it too

It has worked on Hogs, Deer, Bison.

I do want a "harder" jacketed bullet but i don't know why and not bad enough to pay the extra money.

Snake

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I wanted to do a little informal survey. I have a Marlinn guide gun in 45-70 that I don't shoot too much anymore as well as a Browning BLR in 450 Marlin. I usually shoot 400-405 grain bullets. That way, I can shoot the cheaper Speers at the range and use a bit better bullet to hunt with if necessary. There are so many fantastic 400 grain hunting bullets from Woodleigh (traditional and Hydros), North Fork, Barnes Busters, CEB #13s solids, etc. However, it occurs to me that I could also shoot the 350 grain Hornady bullets at the range and hunt with a 350 grain North Fork Solid or Cup Point solid.

Thus, I was wondering, in you 45 caliber lever gun, what weight bullet do you prefer?

You don't need a "bit better bullet" to hunt with. Buy and shoot the cheapest 400'ish grain fodder you can find knowing that it will knock a big hole in anything you hunt.

Pretty mushrooms are an advertising gimmick.

The 45-70 does not need a premium bullet. I kill Elk with a 405gr Remington launched at 1800fps from my Guide Gun. It does just fine.

Hi dla,

Don't make us call Michael458. He is our cyber enforcer for those who don't know the value of a well designed bullet.

After testing almost everything out there, there is a huge difference in performance. I also believe that pretty mushrooms are a gimmick as any one can make one even on a poorly constructed bullet. The difference is when they look the same out of an animal (especially a large animal while hitting bone) and the test media. While a .458 hole is large, the real question is straight line penetration especially when large bone is hit. Your 405gr can and will not reliable penetrate to the boiler room of an elk running north from you. Nor will its track through the animal be straight. Well designed bullets will out penetrate the Remington in every schenario.

The real questions are:
1. Can you place a bullet where it needs to go after a days hunting up and down mountaints?
2. Are you willing to except a lost animal due to a known poor performing bullet?

I will not be the first one to tell you how you should spend your money, but knowing that a well designed bullet is the best money spent, it is just one other thing you don't have to worry about.

Regards,
John
North Fork Technologies
www.northforkbullets.com

Man, my spelling stinks. Late in the day.

quote:

You don't need a "bit better bullet" to hunt with. Buy and shoot the cheapest 400'ish grain fodder you can find knowing that it will knock a big hole in anything you hunt.

Pretty mushrooms are an advertising gimmick.

The 45-70 does not need a premium bullet. I kill Elk with a 405gr Remington launched at 1800fps from my Guide Gun. It does just fine.

I can PROMISE that the above is a very very incorrect statement!

While you might get away with that a time or two, it WILL CATCH UP to you!

In fact, way back in the day before there were decent bullets for 45/70, I used that 405 Remington, 1800 fps, Marlin Guide Gun, on a kudu at 20 yards. On the shoulder! The bullet went all to hell, did NOT PENETRATE the vitals, and had to chase that broken shoulder Kudu all over hell before catching up to him! That bullet FAILED miserably! It DID NOT DO just fine at all! Later, I had the same 405 Remington bullet in a 45/70 1886, 26 inch barrel, well over 1900 fps. It went all to HELL on a bear at 20 yards! Busted into several pieces, which I did recover. I solved the issue with a few more, but the fact of the matter is, this bullet failed again.

In all the test work, 4 of 5 would fail at this velocity. The max you can start this bullet at the muzzle is 1550-1600 fps, and let Impact Velocity drop and it holds together most of the time.

No Need for Premium Bullets in a 45/70?? Jesus Christ Man! You are in the Dark Ages! In the late 1990s and early part of the last decade I would have given anything to have had the bullets we have today for 45/70. I shot cape buffalo, giraffe, wildebeast, and all manner of critters in that time frame with 45/70, and believe me it came up short each and every time with the sorry ass bullets that were available 10-15 yrs ago! It was not until we started getting these premium bullets designed for the 45/70 that it was even a viable option to use in the hunting fields. It still comes up short when compared to real DGR, but it has improved 2 fold with the bullets now available.

How do you enhance any cartridge? By the bullet chosen! We are blessed today when it comes to 45/70 with real and proper bullets that will enhance the cartridge. If you choose to not take advantage of that, then so be it. At some point that will come back to bite you in the ass! It might be literally as well, depending on what your game is!

Michael

quote:

Well, at least have an OK day

Oh I thought I recognized that little saying of yours!

You were on the 30/30 bullet thread not so long ago! HEH..............

Had I known that, well.........................


I probably would not have wasted my time with the above post!

Michael

The 405gr Remington bullet.

I have never shot anything with this bullet, but in doing some research for my 458 SOCOM I learned the following from others who have used this bullet in the SOCOM.

They expand on pigs to a large diameter, and usually shed their jacket. They are giving good penetration at SOCOM impact velocities, which are around 1400 to 1500fps or so.

Which is right inline with michael458's data.

Well I guess I would expect a moderate load of BS from the bullet farmers. After all, you can't make money if I enlighten the newbies that they don't need to spend $2/bullet for the 45-70.

I know nothing about Kudu. I do know Elk. And I know that Elk die nicely when hit with the lowly Remington 405gr JSP.

You are right about the impact velocity and I have taken a bull at 15 paces where the Remington expanded to nearly 1", shed its jackets about 12" in, broke the spine and buried itself in the grass bag. One very dead Elk and one huge 30" wound track (head on shot). But I never planned on taking many Elk at that distance - between 80 and 120yds is normal.

Spend more if you want, after all this is America. But I've always maintained that it is much more important to learn how to shoot, and you've got to put the rounds in for that to happen. The 45-70 is one of those cartridges that can be very reasonable to shoot a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Well I guess I would expect a moderate load of BS from the bullet farmers. After all, you can't make money if I enlighten the newbies that they don't need to spend $2/bullet for the 45-70.

Dla, it seems your ignorance knows no boundaries. To help enlighten you a bit, I am not in the bullet business, nor the rifle business. My business is not related to firearms or bullets at all. In fact, I am a forester by profession, shooter and hunter like many here. I use only proper designed bullets for my expeditions, because I want to do everything I can to be successful in the field. And choosing the right bullet for the mission at hand is at the very TOP OF THE LIST, and in the end, the cheapest of all options one can do to get prepared, or be prepared for contingencies that occur in the field that no one has control of. Only an idiot would do otherwise.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Well I guess I would expect a moderate load of BS from the bullet farmers. After all, you can't make money if I enlighten the newbies that they don't need to spend $2/bullet for the 45-70.

I know nothing about Kudu. I do know Elk. And I know that Elk die nicely when hit with the lowly Remington 405gr JSP.

You are right about the impact velocity and I have taken a bull at 15 paces where the Remington expanded to nearly 1", shed its jackets about 12" in, broke the spine and buried itself in the grass bag. One very dead Elk and one huge 30" wound track (head on shot). But I never planned on taking many Elk at that distance - between 80 and 120yds is normal.

Spend more if you want, after all this is America. But I've always maintained that it is much more important to learn how to shoot, and you've got to put the rounds in for that to happen. The 45-70 is one of those cartridges that can be very reasonable to shoot a lot.

I was going to try and stay out of the discussion but I want to make a few comments.
First I have used a Marlin 1895 45-70 since 1976. I have used just about every available bullet is this caliber. Even used swaged 30-06 case bullets. Now I have shot 1000s of Speer 400 gr and Remington 405s. I like the Remington much better and they were really cheap for a while. I'm cheap too and like to shoot. I have killed lots and lots of whitetails with the 405 Remington with 53 grains of IMR3031, the old standard heavy load. Worked great and don't know that I ever had a bullet failure with this bullet on whitetails. I have had horrible failures of the Speer 400 gr though. Seen them hit a twig and turn into bird shot.
I have seen many bear shot with the 405 Remington and it does a great job up close and stops them good. Here in NC bear are mostly hunted with hounds and shot at distances of feet not yards. Hunter is usually crawling on his hands and knees when shot is taken. I load Rem 405s for a friend who kills lots of bear with it. Now the reason this bullet worked so well on bear is it blows all to pieces or stops in the hide on far side of most bear. With 5 to 15 hounds around a bear you don't want an exit. The dog would cost you much more than most big game hunts. This brings us two the point of you don't need a $2 bullet for the 45-70. No you don't in most cases. If you are going on a $5000 to $25000 hunt do you want to take a chance on a .50 cent bullet failing and you having to pay for a wounded animal or have your PH or guide finish your animal for you.
dla you like the cheap bullets for elk and have done well with them. Question how many elk have you shot with them? One failure out of 100 would be too many.
If you are shooting a deer in the back yard you might use a 22 LR because the hunt doesn't cost you anything. I've killed quite a few deer with a 22LR, does this mean I'd go on a $5000 trophy deer hunt with a 22LR. NO!
Sorry guys for being long winded.

Sam

srose

Re, the Remington 405 vs the Speer 400 gr bullet.
I would like to hear some actual results of the Speer 400gr bullet on game, as I have loaded some for the 458 SOCOM, which has a reduced velocity compared to most modern 45/70 loads.

Years ago I read somewhere that the Speer was a lot softer bullet than the Remington, the Speer ebing designed to expand with the lower velocities of traditional Trapdoor Springfield prssure loads.
I killed a few deer with them loaded over 56 grains of IMR 3031 in my Ruger No1. [WARNING You cannot seat these or any bullets out as far as I did for my No1, in the newer No1's so you cannot get 56 grains into the loads for the newer guns,or the Marlins].
I never recovered any bullets, and all kills were quick, but I switched to the Hornady 350gr RN, as I felt it would be better if I had to shoot a raking shot.

The 350gr Hornady RN has been my favorite 45/70 bullet since, and I have used it in the 458 and in my 450 No2 for deer and pigs. I loiad it to @2330fps in the 450 No2, because that is the velocity it regulats at. In holds up well at even this velocity. I have only recovered one from a pig I shot in the head facing me at about 40 to 45 yards. The bullet hit the skull and pendtrated into the chest cavity. It was badly mangled but still held together pretty well.

If I was going to shoot something bigger than pigs or deer with my 450 No2, such as elk or moose,I would use the North Fork 350gr FN, as it is safe in doubles.

I never skimp on the quality of the bullet I am using for a hunt, after all it is the bullet that does all the work. The price of the bullet is a very small part of the price of a hunt.

You can always practice with a less expensive bullet after you have sighted in for the Premium hunting bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

I never skimp on the quality of the bullet I am using for a hunt, after all it is the bullet that does all the work. The price of the bullet is a very small part of the price of a hunt.

You can always practice with a less expensive bullet after you have sighted in for the Premium hunting bullet.

+1

NE 450 No.2,

I've had the Speer 400 grain blow all to pieces on brush. I know no such thing as a brush gun but it shouldn't blow into 5 pieces after hitting a 1/2 inch twig. I have also had them go to pieces on deer. Also some of the early ones were way undersize and flew all over the place. This was the cause of one of my deer failures. The bullet key holed and hit a long way from where I was aiming.

The 350 Grain Hornady (old RN SP) is a good bullet but will not expand at 45-70 velocities, 1800 or below. I think Michael458 could give you real data on all these bullets. I'm sure he has put them all through the test.

Sam

quote:

The 350 Grain Hornady (old RN SP) is a good bullet but will not expand at 45-70 velocities, 1800 or below. I think Michael458 could give you real data on all these bullets. I'm sure he has put them all through the test.

Boys, that 350 Hornady designed for 458 Winchester will handle at least up to 2400 fps impacts. I have tested it at that some years ago. When Hornady flattened the nose, back in 2000 or so, that was the Premium bullet for 45/70! It was the hammer and I used it quite a bit back then when playing with 45/70, it was the "Go To Bullet" of the day. When it drops to 1550 to 1600 fps then it becomes a solid and does not open up. But, I was more than happy with that at the time because other options would blow to pieces, and this one could not do that at any 45/70 velocity. Still a great bullet today as well. Covers a lot of options.

Another great one, the Woodleigh Flat Nose soft. Excellent 45/70 bullet, but at 400 grs I would rather push the 350 North Fork a bit more and have the same options even at little higher velocity.

All the talk about the 405 Remington, and you might get the idea I don't like it, which is FAR from the truth. It is one of the most accurate conventional 458 bullets I have worked with, and it don't care if it's 45/70 or 458 Lott. I used this bullet to run load data for anything around 400 grs, in 458 Winchester, 458 Lott, and 458 B&M. Then when I had that data, would take the top end 10% and work with more expensive bullets like the Swift A and others. Super Accurate. The only problem with the 405 Remington is folks running it too fast for it's construction for terminal performance. Keep muzzle velocity at around 1600 fps, and at most any reasonable range from 25 yards out, it is an excellent performer. There is better constructed bullets that give you more options, but stay within those parameters and the 405 is great.

Don't know much about the Speer, with the 405 Remington, never saw much of a need for the speer.

I can tell you that the current 350 Speer is an excellent bullet, damn, nearly forgot about that one. But, I don't have any very low low velocity work with that.

NE450#2---I will try and remember to get some low velocity work with the 350 Speer when we do the 300 North Fork! Don't let me forget please!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Well I guess I would expect a moderate load of BS from the bullet farmers. After all, you can't make money if I enlighten the newbies that they don't need to spend $2/bullet for the 45-70.

Dla, it seems your ignorance knows no boundaries. To help enlighten you a bit, I am not in the bullet business, nor the rifle business. My business is not related to firearms or bullets at all. In fact, I am a forester by profession, shooter and hunter like many here. I use only proper designed bullets for my expeditions, because I want to do everything I can to be successful in the field. And choosing the right bullet for the mission at hand is at the very TOP OF THE LIST, and in the end, the cheapest of all options one can do to get prepared, or be prepared for contingencies that occur in the field that no one has control of. Only an idiot would do otherwise.

Michael

Ya know, that might make sense for perhaps 0.0000000000001% of all hunters. Most hunters get proficient with their weapon, buy their license/tags, tank of gas and go hunting.

Most folks who think about Elk hunting go out and buy some screaming-death-magnum rifle with a nice piece of glass on top. They don't carry a 45-70 Guide Gun with a cheap peep sight.

Most folks who can afford a bazzillion dollars for an African hunt are not going to pack a 45-70.

I can't imagine going on a guided hunt, and think the majority of US hunters are the same.

Personally, I think you place way too much emphasis on the bullet construction for the 45-70. For a 270W, bullet construction is important for hunting Elk, but not the 45-70.

There are all sorts of imaginary issues that one can consider when typing at the keyboard. But in my experience, when out in the field, the biggest issue is making the shot. Lots of Elk run away wounded every year from premium bullets. And countless Elk die every year from a well placed shot with a cheap bullet.

It's called "hunting" and not "shooting" for a reason. If you can't make a good shot, then don't shoot. You can't make a bad shot good with a premium bullet.

Wish I could shoot "premium" bullets but I shoot too much to be able to afford it (at least that's what the wife tells me).

I've been using my LTD as my "go to" elk rifle since the late nineties. I've played around a bit with cast but the only hunting bullet I've used has been Speer's 400 grainer. Cows, spikes and branch bulls...all fell to one bullet, all pass throughs and never recovered a bullet. I only shoot if I have a quartering or broadside shot, nothing questionable or "through the brush" shots. I've been known to pass on some nice animals. I've found a combination of components that works well for me, suits the conditions/terrain I prefer to hunt and is affordable but I understand it's limitations. I know nothing of kudu, will never chase a buff (or be chased) and will be satisfied reading others accounts of those types of exploits.

That said, I did shoot a nice Russian boar in 1999 with the above rifle/cartridge. Struck the angry little guy (325 pounds) solidly behind the shoulder at about 40 yards and found the bullet on the off side, just under the hide. That one made for some good sausage.

Been loving the 45-70 ever since.

quote:

Ya know, that might make sense for perhaps 0.0000000000001% of all hunters. Most hunters get proficient with their weapon, buy their license/tags, tank of gas and go hunting.

Obviously you are talking about yourself, as you believe that proficiency trumps everything else. There is no doubt that proficiency is at the top of the list, and I would assume that to be true. However, for many hunters I find that it is NOT SO. I have been on many hunts through out the world, and not only is proficiency not present in many cases, knowledge of rifle, ammo, bullets and everything else is lacking as well. So I do not Find MOST HUNTERs, in the category as you describe.

Being "Proficient" carries much more responsibility beyond being able to hit your target in the field.

quote:

Most folks who think about Elk hunting go out and buy some screaming-death-magnum rifle with a nice piece of glass on top. They don't carry a 45-70 Guide Gun with a cheap peep sight.

Again, it's obvious you are speaking of your own choices. I am sure you are very proud of yourself, especially with the "Cheap Sights".

quote:

Most folks who can afford a bazzillion dollars for an African hunt are not going to pack a 45-70.

You "Assume" too much. While I most certainly do not have a "Bazzillion" dollars, I have been to Africa many times carrying a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. Between the years 1999 and 2002. So I beg to differ.

I have a chap that is leaving in November for Cape Buffalo, with his trusty Marlin Guide Gun, in 45/70.
Again, I beg to differ.

quote:

I can't imagine going on a guided hunt, and think the majority of US hunters are the same.

The Same? Same as What? I can't imagine the majority of US HUnters that go on a hunt that don't care enough about what they are doing to choose a proper bullet for the mission at hand, but it happens all the time. Most of the time, like you, they get away with it. But like some said here, why would you risk that 1 time out of a 100 that you won't get away with it? Why would one choose to teach a young budding hunter on his first hunting trip to use inferior components for the mission at hand? What happens when that young budding hunter looses that first game because of that?

quote:

Personally, I think you place way too much emphasis on the bullet construction for the 45-70. For a 270W, bullet construction is important for hunting Elk, but not the 45-70.

So what you are saying is the 45/70 is not worth the effort in finding a proper bullet for the job? It is such a nothing cartridge, it's not worth the trouble. Or, are you saying that the 45/70 is so powerful, that it does not matter what bullet you put in, as long as it's cheap? Sorry, I don't concur with either of those scenarios.

quote:

There are all sorts of imaginary issues that one can consider when typing at the keyboard. But in my experience, when out in the field, the biggest issue is making the shot.

Well sorry to inform you about this, but whilst I am a superior typist, no doubt about it, I don't imagine anything, or have imaginary issues. As stated, I have run that 405 Remington bullet at 1800 or better in a guide gun, and I have watched it fail both in the field and in the test work as well. No, I did not imagine it, and it caused issues IN THE FIELD, on animal tissue. Fortunately I am very competent at what I do, and no animal was lost because of it. So, obviously you again must be speaking about yourself in the above statement. And I am beginning to ask myself about just how much experience you do have with large big bull elk. Since you never mention any other animals, I can only assume all you have ever shot or hunted with the 45/70 is elk?


RGraff

quote:

Wish I could shoot "premium" bullets but I shoot too much to be able to afford it (at least that's what the wife tells me).

Please read the thread and take the advice of the more enlightened shooters here.

quote:

Posted by NE450#2

I never skimp on the quality of the bullet I am using for a hunt, after all it is the bullet that does all the work. The price of the bullet is a very small part of the price of a hunt.

You can always practice with a less expensive bullet after you have sighted in for the Premium hunting bullet.

dla

Please, do as you choose, I really don't care. Your choices are very poor, to say the least. I have even stated that the 405 Remington is an excellent bullet, when kept within it's design parameters. I can state with fair confidence I have shot a hell of a lot more of these bullets than you will shoot in your lifetime. I have used them in everything from 458 Lott down to 45/70 for many purposes, and shot literally 1000s of them. I have a pretty damned good idea about how they react, and what they do at many different velocities during terminals.

quote:

dla
one of us
Posted Oct 14, 2008 10:58 PM Hide Post
The one and only bull elk I've taken with a 45-70 fell to the Remington 405gr JSP launched at 1800fps. At a distance of 18yds. The bullet expanded to about 1", shed it's jacket, and killed that Elk faster than anything I've seen before.

The shot was straight on and the bullet penetrated about 2' - part of that was passing through the spine. It worked for me. I certainly have no qualms about knocking down Elk with a 45-70.

Luck is all you have there. At some point you continue that, you will hit bone, bullet will go all to hell, you will not penetrate the vitals and either result in a long chase, or lost animal. I nearly lost two animals, kudu and bear, because of this bullet and it doing exactly what I said, hit bone, busted all to hell, and DID NOT PENETRATE VITALS. Sorry, give me a proper bullet, designed for my mission at hand, where I can count on busting bone, crunching straight through to the vitals and destroying them as well, animal down.

Now, by all means, do as you please, but don't let your ignorance infect others!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Ya know, that might make sense for perhaps 0.0000000000001% of all hunters. Most hunters get proficient with their weapon, buy their license/tags, tank of gas and go hunting.

Obviously you are talking about yourself, as you believe that proficiency trumps everything else. There is no doubt that proficiency is at the top of the list, and I would assume that to be true. However, for many hunters I find that it is NOT SO. I have been on many hunts through out the world, and not only is proficiency not present in many cases, knowledge of rifle, ammo, bullets and everything else is lacking as well. So I do not Find MOST HUNTERs, in the category as you describe.

Being "Proficient" carries much more responsibility beyond being able to hit your target in the field.

quote:

Most folks who think about Elk hunting go out and buy some screaming-death-magnum rifle with a nice piece of glass on top. They don't carry a 45-70 Guide Gun with a cheap peep sight.

Again, it's obvious you are speaking of your own choices. I am sure you are very proud of yourself, especially with the "Cheap Sights".

quote:

Most folks who can afford a bazzillion dollars for an African hunt are not going to pack a 45-70.

You "Assume" too much. While I most certainly do not have a "Bazzillion" dollars, I have been to Africa many times carrying a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. Between the years 1999 and 2002. So I beg to differ.

I have a chap that is leaving in November for Cape Buffalo, with his trusty Marlin Guide Gun, in 45/70.
Again, I beg to differ.

quote:

I can't imagine going on a guided hunt, and think the majority of US hunters are the same.

The Same? Same as What? I can't imagine the majority of US HUnters that go on a hunt that don't care enough about what they are doing to choose a proper bullet for the mission at hand, but it happens all the time. Most of the time, like you, they get away with it. But like some said here, why would you risk that 1 time out of a 100 that you won't get away with it? Why would one choose to teach a young budding hunter on his first hunting trip to use inferior components for the mission at hand? What happens when that young budding hunter looses that first game because of that?

quote:

Personally, I think you place way too much emphasis on the bullet construction for the 45-70. For a 270W, bullet construction is important for hunting Elk, but not the 45-70.

So what you are saying is the 45/70 is not worth the effort in finding a proper bullet for the job? It is such a nothing cartridge, it's not worth the trouble. Or, are you saying that the 45/70 is so powerful, that it does not matter what bullet you put in, as long as it's cheap? Sorry, I don't concur with either of those scenarios.

quote:

There are all sorts of imaginary issues that one can consider when typing at the keyboard. But in my experience, when out in the field, the biggest issue is making the shot.

Well sorry to inform you about this, but whilst I am a superior typist, no doubt about it, I don't imagine anything, or have imaginary issues. As stated, I have run that 405 Remington bullet at 1800 or better in a guide gun, and I have watched it fail both in the field and in the test work as well. No, I did not imagine it, and it caused issues IN THE FIELD, on animal tissue. Fortunately I am very competent at what I do, and no animal was lost because of it. So, obviously you again must be speaking about yourself in the above statement. And I am beginning to ask myself about just how much experience you do have with large big bull elk. Since you never mention any other animals, I can only assume all you have ever shot or hunted with the 45/70 is elk?


RGraff

quote:

Wish I could shoot "premium" bullets but I shoot too much to be able to afford it (at least that's what the wife tells me).

Please read the thread and take the advice of the more enlightened shooters here.

quote:

Posted by NE450#2

I never skimp on the quality of the bullet I am using for a hunt, after all it is the bullet that does all the work. The price of the bullet is a very small part of the price of a hunt.

You can always practice with a less expensive bullet after you have sighted in for the Premium hunting bullet.

dla

Please, do as you choose, I really don't care. Your choices are very poor, to say the least. I have even stated that the 405 Remington is an excellent bullet, when kept within it's design parameters. I can state with fair confidence I have shot a hell of a lot more of these bullets than you will shoot in your lifetime. I have used them in everything from 458 Lott down to 45/70 for many purposes, and shot literally 1000s of them. I have a pretty damned good idea about how they react, and what they do at many different velocities during terminals.

quote:

dla
one of us
Posted Oct 14, 2008 10:58 PM Hide Post
The one and only bull elk I've taken with a 45-70 fell to the Remington 405gr JSP launched at 1800fps. At a distance of 18yds. The bullet expanded to about 1", shed it's jacket, and killed that Elk faster than anything I've seen before.

The shot was straight on and the bullet penetrated about 2' - part of that was passing through the spine. It worked for me. I certainly have no qualms about knocking down Elk with a 45-70.

Luck is all you have there. At some point you continue that, you will hit bone, bullet will go all to hell, you will not penetrate the vitals and either result in a long chase, or lost animal. I nearly lost two animals, kudu and bear, because of this bullet and it doing exactly what I said, hit bone, busted all to hell, and DID NOT PENETRATE VITALS. Sorry, give me a proper bullet, designed for my mission at hand, where I can count on busting bone, crunching straight through to the vitals and destroying them as well, animal down.

Now, by all means, do as you please, but don't let your ignorance infect others!

Michael

I doubt my ignorance will effect you much. You seem to have inflated your world to fit around your head just fine, but it must've taken a lot of air.

One of these days when we stop taking Elk with these cheap Speer and Remington bullets we'll have to read your novels and get "enlightened".

quote:

Please read the thread and take the advice of the more enlightened shooters here.

No thank you. While my paltry experience in the field (35 years at last count) pales in comparison to your self-proclaimed mastery, what I've been doing is working for me. Appreciate the tip though.

quote:

I nearly lost two animals, kudu and bear, because of this bullet and it doing exactly what I said, hit bone, busted all to hell, and DID NOT PENETRATE VITALS.

Sorry to hear that. Too bad you were forced to shoot the poor guys in a bone.

I'd love to continue being enlightened but I have to get some elk steak in the marinade for tonight's dinner.

Since the OP was asking about 45/70 bullets, I will confine the followint to only the 45/70 Marlin.

Random thoughts:

I have killed seeral deer with a 45/70, and I have seen several pigs shot with 45/70's.

Also I know of several people that use the 45/70 in thick timber for deer, elk, and black bear, and quite a few of BIG bear guids carry a 45/70, including one Guide I hunted with, who stopped a charge at touching distance from an unwounded Grizzly bear a few days before I got to camp.

For most deer and pig hunting the standard 300grt bullets work great, most of the time as to the 400 gr bullets even on elk, and black bear.

The 350gr Hornady RN has been my favorite bullet of all, because it is tougher than the rest. [This was before the current crop of premoum 45/70 bullets].

It killed deer fine on broad side shots and held together on raking shots in thick cover. My brother killed a nice black bear up close with it as well.

Also out of my Ruger No1 I killed 3 deer with it from the same blind at @ 230, 240 and 250 yards. This Ruger No1had a 2.5x Kahles scope and was scary accurate and I shot it at that doistance a fair amount to know where to hold. Now the bullets did not seem ot expand at that distance, baised on exit holes, but the deer did not walk or trot far after being hit.

Now we have several premium 45/70 bullets, such as the North Fork, Swift, Barnes, and the Non Coms.
What these Premium bullets do is provide a level of insurance. Sometimes especially in heavy cover or when walking up game, you may not be able to wait for the perfect shot.
Or even broadside you might hit right on the shoulder joint.
A premium bullet, that is designed so that it can not totally fragment, is a LOT more likely to penetrate through heavy bone, or through the paunch on a raking shot.

IMHO it is well worth the money.
You do not have to shoot several hundred of them in practice, you might not even need to use them on every hunt.

Random thoughts cont.

Take my deer lease for instance, and say I am hunting with a marlin Guide Gun. My brother and my brother in law both hunt with them there quite a bit.

Most of the animals we shoot there are for the freezer, the season is long, and we can pick our shots. If you do not get the right shot on a doe today, you will get it in a day or three.

We do have somne real nice bucks on this place. You might only see this buck ONE time. Why not have a bullet that you can depend on to kill or anchor the buck from any angle???

After all how many animals are you going to shoot in a year???

Also many times I like to walk up some pigs, and I usually shoot a deer or two doing this as well. I may not get the perfect broadside shot.

Again I want a bullet that will cleanly take or anchor game from ANY angle, should I decide to shoot.

A premium bullet gives you the confidence and performance to do what might need to be done.

So, not even considering Dangerous Game, a Premium Bullet can be worth the money several times over.

I spend more money in Gasoline to go to my deer lease in a single season, than I would if my premium bullets cost $10.00 each.

And I shoot several deer and a LOT of pigs each year.

We are lucky to have the best choice in Hunting Bullets Today in the History of Man.

If one was to read many of the older books, written by real hunters, one factor continually raised its Ugly head.

Bullets that do not perform properly, the biggest problem being bullets that fragment and do not give adequate penetration...

Michael

Thanks NE 450 No2...you've helped me identify a couple aspects of where/when I may part company with some folks when we speak of hunting. Sort of clears things up for me.

I will never face down a charging Grizzly bear. I don't take "raking shots through the brush" or shoot animals "...through the paunch..." or "...through heavy bone...". I just don't. If that's what's presented to me, I don't shoot. Mr. or Mrs. elk moves on and I hope to see them another day (or in a few more minutes) . Difference in philosophy I guess.

Should also point out that I live in elk "country". Not really elk country to us...just home. I hunt in my back yard, so to speak. Watch them have their babies, find their sheds in the off season and help feed them when the winter gets bad. We kill every damn predator we can legally kill too. I'm blessed in the sense that I don't have to travel big miles or invest my hard earned money in guides and related expenses. Maybe if I had that sort of pressure riding on making my hunt "successful" I might consider a questionable shot or feel compelled to shoot through a tree to get to my animal (love that pic by the way Mr. 458). Maybe. Probably not.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to hunt a big Brownie or Moose or Buff or whatever. A guide showing me where to go and when to shoot might be cool some day. Right now I don't and/or can't. Probably never will. If I do, rest assured I'll be asking advice on where to find the best deal on some of the premium bullets Mr. 458 has been so gracious as to share pictures of with us. Until then, for me and mine and the way we hunt, we'll continue doing what we do.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. My sincere apologies to the OP for my part in a bit of a hijack.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:




Michael

The 1800fps photo looks exactly like the one I dug out of a dead bull Elk (after going through the spine). I guess you would call that a bullet failure.

quote:

The 1800fps photo looks exactly like the one I dug out of a dead bull Elk (after going through the spine). I guess you would call that a bullet failure.

You mean the ONE DEAD BULL ELK that you recovered?

Or have you killed several big bull elk and all the bullets look like that?


One DEAD BULL ELK is of NO CONSEQUENCE, and does not mean it will be consistent or ever happen again.

When a conventional bullet does not stay together, it is not predictable. As they do not come apart consistent, therefore for they cannot penetrate consistent, nor can they be predicted consistently.

As you can see, the 405 Remington at 1600 fps is consistent, and would actually perform in a more consistent manner. You do see that correct?

Michael

quote:

I might consider a questionable shot or feel compelled to shoot through a tree to get to my animal (love that pic by the way Mr. 458). Maybe. Probably not.

Well we all can't be as perfect as you I suppose. Actual story is, I did not see the tree. It was in Alaska, raining, using iron sights, moose was only about 35-40 yards, moose moving from my left to right. I did not pick the tree to shoot through, did not even see it.

You are about a Smart Ass POS eh?

Too bad we all can't be Perfect Shots Like You. Sit in our back yard and wait for the "Perfect Shot"

You don't always get the perfect shot in the real world. My real world is not elk, or even moose, and something I am glad to say, you will probably never experience, as you would not be very good at it. In fact, you would probably get someone killed, other than yourself.

Michael

Well, now that we've resorted to name calling I'll be done here in a moment.

I'm not anywhere near perfect sir, never claimed to be. I just choose to pick my shots carefully, admittedly at the loss of some nice game animals over the years. We are in agreement, though, that in the "real world" you don't always get that perfect shot. It seems one difference between you and I is that you have chosen to take those imperfect shots on occasion anyway and I have not. No right or wrong as far as I can tell, just different, you and I. My heartburn with you personally is that you seem to consider those with different experiences and opinions as yours either stupid or not as "enlightened" as you. Whatever. I look forward to the day you have the opportunity to call me a pos personally.

To the OP...I apologize (again).

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

One DEAD BULL ELK is of NO CONSEQUENCE, and does not mean it will be consistent or ever happen again.

Then what is the significance of your wounded Kudu? Just wondering. After all, for all we know you simply made a really crappy shot, way too high on the shoulder, and then blamed the bullet for not finding the vitals for you.

quote:

Originally posted by RGraff:
Well, now that we've resorted to name calling I'll be done here in a moment.

I'm not anywhere near perfect sir, never claimed to be. I just choose to pick my shots carefully, admittedly at the loss of some nice game animals over the years. We are in agreement, though, that in the "real world" you don't always get that perfect shot. It seems one difference between you and I is that you have chosen to take those imperfect shots on occasion anyway and I have not. No right or wrong as far as I can tell, just different, you and I. My heartburn with you personally is that you seem to consider those with different experiences and opinions as yours either stupid or not as "enlightened" as you. Whatever. I look forward to the day you have the opportunity to call me a pos personally.

To the OP...I apologize (again).

Mr. Graff

Seems to me we are most certainly off on the wrong foot here. I call a spade a spade, here, or in person, makes no difference to me. You have enough smart ass, snide remarks to back it up.

quote:

pales in comparison to your self-proclaimed mastery

quote:

Too bad you were forced to shoot the poor guys in a bone.

quote:

feel compelled to shoot through a tree to get to my animal (love that pic by the way Mr. 458). Maybe. Probably not.

So there is no name calling here, a mere observation on my part.

The only statement I made to you was that NE450 mentioned you can shoot all the cheap bullets you want, use the premiums on the hunt. I see nothing wrong with that concept, but you on the other hand seem to take offense and attack me, with your remarks. Personally I would much rather talk and discuss bullets, rifles, or cartridges than to have to answer the remarks you choose to make. If you are offended well that was your intention with those remarks. Obviously your wish to degenerate to "smart ass" remarks.

Now, maybe you can answer some things for me?

"Self-Proclaimed Mastery" of exactly what? What have I proclaimed? The possibility that I might just have a bit more experience with different bullets than many folks? If that is the case, there is no self proclaimed mastery of anything, but I can just about place a pretty good bet that I do in fact have a bit of experience with many different kinds of bullets, in fact, just about every single damned bullet that is currently on the market now, many that are not on the market, many that are now obsolete and have gone to the way side in damn near every big bore caliber we have from 416 to .620. With very few exceptions I have no experience with .423 caliber, .465 caliber, and maybe there are a few more obscure in between calibers as well.

.416, .458, .474, .500, .510, .585, .620 have been throughly investigated here by me. I shoot between 7000-10000 rounds a year, all big bore doing various test work from terminal bullet performance to pressure data, load data, and testing rifles. This done here on a 50 yard indoor range, and then this data taken to the field for further work, not only by myself, but many other folks that use the data I provide, free of charge. So you might say, you get what you pay for, and you can take my observations or leave them, it's of no consequence to me, I do not do it for you or anyone else, I do what I do for myself. I master nothing, but I am a avid student of much, and in particular, Terminal Bullet Performance.

There is absolutely no secret as to who I am or what I am about or the things I do. Not in the shooting community, nor here on AR. All you have to do is click on the link on this very post.

quote:

Too bad you were forced to shoot the poor guys in a bone.

Sorry, I am not forced to shoot in a bone. I choose to do so. I am not a meat hunter. I choose to shoot bone as that is one of the quickest ways in which to immobilize big dangerous game animals such as buffalo in particular, bear, lion and so forth. I suspect from doing mostly this kind of hunting, that carries over into any animal in which I engage. The vast majority of hunting I do is for dangerous game. In many cases animals taken other than that are either just part of the hunt, or used as bait for lion or leopard. And in those cases as well, I do not wish to be chasing animals down, there is no time for that, so crunching and munching bone is part of the equation to bring things swiftly to and end. Now I like to hunt other things as well, and have other experiences, such as moose hunting in Alaska or something such as that. But not a way of life. There are species that I choose to hunt over and over, and never get enough of, buffalo at the top of that list, followed by elephant, hippo and probably bears as well, a few others. I very much choose to crunch and munch bone, in some rare cases lives can be at stake, they in fact don't call it dangerous game hunting for nothing. I have learned you go with the very best equipment that you can, you shoot a lot, you practice, you get your loads right, but most important is the bullet that you choose, it must be up to the task that you ask it to do. And, you should know the capabilities of that bullet, it's lower and upper limits, how it behaves on bone, in tissue, and what you can expect of it. I am very serious about terminal performance of bullets, and an avid student of.

Not everyone has the luxury of sitting in the back yard, as you call it, I realize your backyard is big, and waiting on that exact perfect shot that you seek. In fact, very few have that luxury. While most of us strive to get the best shot we can on that first round, it just does not always turn out that way. I have missed my mark many times, regardless of doing my best, I have made bad shots! Absolutely. I make no claims of being the perfect shot, or being some sort of great shooter. I never have a problem admitting to making a bad shot, it happens. I can tell you about them, as I remember those very well.

quote:

feel compelled to shoot through a tree to get to my animal (love that pic by the way Mr. 458). Maybe. Probably not.

This was October of 2001. I was hunting with my friend and Guide Gary Gray out of Yakutat Alaska. On a scheduled moose hunt. I was using a 1885 single shot 45/70, a 350 gr Hornady Interlock (the Premium 45/70 bullet of the day), while I can look back and get that exact load from my data, it was running around 2100 fps in the 28 inch barrel of the 1885, using as I recall 49.5/RL 7 and of course a Federal 210 primer. It was iron sights, and I am really not a good iron sight shooter, but at that time my eyes were still fairly decent.

From the time I got off the airplane in Yakutat it was raining. It was cold-at least to me, around 35 degrees, and raining, and raining and raining. I do not do good in Alaska weather, rain/cold. Every day for 5-6 days, rain/cold. I passed up a few moose, one in particular we saw every day. In fact, was actually bigger antlers than the one I ended up shooting. We kept seeing the same moose day in day out. I am not sure if it was the 6th day or the 7th day out, but I had enough of this weather I can tell you. So that morning we are going along and we hear bushes crashing around 100 or so yards out to our left, and there is a moose! This moose is working his way to us. Gary has the binos, I ask if we had seen this moose before, and he says no. Hell I don't know nothing about moose, either big, or small and that is my experience. In my mind, I am cold, wet, and I am ready to get the hell out of here and head back to South Carolina for some sunshine and warmer weather! I have made my mind up to shoot this moose and go the hell home!

Gary says I cannot mount the moose? Why? Fighting, his face it torn up! OK fine, I tell Gary, too bad, I am shooting this moose! I don't know where this moose was off to, but he was making a steady go of it, and passed by us, left to right at roughly 35 yds, at a slow trot. I am following the shoulder, and when everything looks good I fire. Moose makes no distinction, does not slow or even show signs of a hit. Gary proclaims that I hit a tree!!!! Damn, I know if I hit a tree, then I did not hit a moose! So I am running, reloading, and getting after the moose, which has not decided there was any issue at all. I get loaded again, and hit him square on the right shoulder about 15 yds or so, turns around towards me and goes down. We approach the down moose, he is out and done. Looking at the face, he had in fact been fighting, but it was years ago and all the white that Gary saw was not torn flesh, but hair that had grown back from years ago fighting, and it was white! A very nice animal as it turns out. Average antlers, don't know much about that, and I don't measure trophies, but I was pleased and it appeared that I would be getting out of this cold and rain!

Hit a Tree? I retraced my steps to that first shot, and sure as hell I had dead centered a small 3 inch or so tree, right through the middle. This tree was a good 10 yards or so in front of the moose as he passed. I decided I had to cut that section of tree out, and take it home as well. I did, I have it today as a reminder of how things can go sometimes.

The moose fell on his right side, the side, the entrance side. So we started skinning the moose, and eventually found the 350 Hornady on the far left shoulder. Nearly perfect performance, jacket/core together, expansion, exactly what one would expect. We kept skinning, and found a second bullet about 2-3 inches on that same left shoulder, but this one had no jacket on it, just the lead core? This was the bullet that had centered the tree, and hit the moose on the right shoulder, and continued on it's path to the far right shoulder! Jacket was never found, and I can only assume that the jacket shed after passing through the tree, and only the lead core had hit the moose.

Now this does not hearby cause me to proclaim that the 350 Hornady can go through trees and kill moose! That is not the case at all, and in fact, this was just good luck and that is all it was. I did not see the tree at all. Had no idea it was in between me and the moose. There is also no such thing as brush busting, all bullets can be deflected and damaged going through brush, one of our biggest issues in the field. I never shoot through brush if I can see it, or have a choice in the matter. Sometimes there is NO CHOICE when hunting dangerous game, and never on the first shot anyway, unless a charge is involved and all the rules such as that go out the window.

Last year I did a test on various bullets shooting through sticks to see if there was much one can rely upon, and there really is not, some bullets by design will do better on brush, but all are effected.

So no, I did not purposely choose to shoot through a tree to get my animal.







In the end, that very afternoon the weather turned bad! Wind started blowing, and for 3 days the wind never went below 45 mph, and gusts to 70 mph! Along with rain, sand, dust and hail. It was Thursday morning when I shot the moose. On Saturday the weather called for a break on Sunday morning, with the bad weather coming in Sunday Afternoon. BAD WEATHER?? What the hell had been going on for the last 3 days and nights?????? We called the pickup plane to fetch us if indeed the weather broke Sunday, as there was no telling how long I would be stuck when really bad weather came in? It did break, I did get out, and I did make it back to warmer, sunnier climes! Alaska! Tough place for a southern boy!

quote:

My heartburn with you personally is that you seem to consider those with different experiences and opinions as yours either stupid or not as "enlightened" as you.

I do apologize Mr. Graff, I did not mean to give you Heartburn! As I too suffer that myself from time to time, and it is not pleasant. The statement above can also be turned right around to describe how you have presented yourself to me as well. Look at your remarks?

Be that as it may, we do have choices. Mr. Graff, I propose to you that each of us has different experiences in the field, and that while we may very well differ on opinions, you and I are still "Brothers" in the area of hunting and shooting, which I am sure is a passion for both of us! I know it is in my case! This puts us together, better or worse, against the masses that do not understand what we do, or care what we do, and would in fact love to ban what we do. I think if one can get by the snide smart ass remarks, made by both--then we might be able to learn from each other. I am quite damned sure I don't know all there is to know, and I got plenty of room to learn! As I find I am very damned ignorant about a LOT of things in life, and master of very few!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

One DEAD BULL ELK is of NO CONSEQUENCE, and does not mean it will be consistent or ever happen again.

Then what is the significance of your wounded Kudu? Just wondering. After all, for all we know you simply made a really crappy shot, way too high on the shoulder, and then blamed the bullet for not finding the vitals for you.

Well DLA, for once you are spot on the money! There is no significant difference in the 1 Kudu, any more than 1 bull Elk. But, when you combine that with a bear, same bullet, same results, and then you compare that with some intensive and extensive test work done on terminal performance, and the results are all the same, then it starts to come together if you understand what you are looking at.

One Poor, or Good experience in the field does not make it so. There must be more to back that one experience up to make a reasonable, and intelligent decision on such.

Michael

I know, I know...I said I was done. Last time, I promise.

I don't take well to insults. I took your "enlightened" comment early on as an insult. I can't reach through my monitor and pop you in the nose to remind you to be nice and I don't call people names so I, admittedly, resorted to "smart ass". 14 years on the street has given me a bit of a sarcastic bite to my humor. I apologize.

I am a meat hunter. I can't/don't travel the world. I can't/don't hire guides. The last hunt I went on outside of Oregon was an antelope hunt on public land in Wyoming. Yes, self guided. I'd love to try the guided hunt thing some day but with two kids in college and three more still in the house it's probably not in the cards.

Bullet placement is paramount when meat hunting. Sort of our mantra amongst the family. I preach it to my kids. One bullet, clean kill. When I hear of folks purposely shooting shoulders or spines or inflicting wounding shots to "slow" the animal down, well, that's about as foreign a concept to me as anything. Don't understand it, but then again, to each their own and I've never hunted anything that could just as easily hunt me. Well, not counting that grouchy pig. He didn't appreciate me either.

I don't fault anyone their philosophies or reasons to hunt. As you mentioned, brothers against the masses. I've said it before, if I'm ever blessed enough to take that once in a lifetime trip to Africa or Alaska, to take that trophy animal, I have no doubt I'll be asking for yours and others advice on how to put that charging bear or cat down before he eats my lunch or that of my guide. Promise.

I've always considered myself a pretty good judge of character and I think I have you pegged. I do, however, appreciate and accept your apology and I hope you'll accept mine. While the "piece of shite" comment has effectively taken you off the Christmas card list, rest assured I've been called worse by more practiced foul mouthed folks than yourself and I'll be happy to read about your future exploits in the bush anyway.

quote:

I know, I know...I said I was done. Last time, I promise.

Mr. Graff! I sincerely hope that you don't keep that promise! Do not make it the "Last time" or "Done".

I doubt either of us are receptive to insults, or condescending remarks. I know I am not. Now we know you are not!

All apologies accepted, end of that story. The POS, yes, a bit out of line, I do apologize for that direct and above the other. Rough day maybe, who knows, no excuses.

I do have to correct one thing on your post above, I have never,

quote:

inflicting wounding shots to "slow" the animal down,

All shots are are meant to kill and drop the animal in its tracks, or within a matter of feet. Shoulder shots are killing shots on buffalo, heart, top of heart, lungs and bone. Perfect shoulder shot on buffalo also takes the spine. I normally only go about 1/3 up the shoulder on buffalo, heart lungs. On angled frontals with a good bullet you bust that bone going from the leg to the shoulder blade, heart lungs, bone fragments, lots and lots of damage, buffalo down either on the spot or within feet. Lion, I broke shoulders on two, and lungs on one. I was very happy to break shoulders on the two, that job was finished before it started, the one with the lung shot while dead, just did not know it was dead for a few minutes, and a few minutes with a lion roaring around and you don't have another shot, is a very long time, especially in the dark and other lions roaming around with you. I really like busting bone on lions. Bears don;t react well at all to having bone busted. My first big brown bear took a shoulder shot at 20 yards and dropped like lightning. I was very pleased as the closer he got I knew I did not have enough gun for that bear, it was rat gun in 338 caliber.

No where, and no Dangerous Game hunter I know anywhere shoots a dangerous game animal or any animal to wound it and slow it down. What I said is, when you bust big bones you immobilize that animal, in the process most of the time you are getting heart/lungs and vitals as well, and sending bone fragments through vital tissues. The entire object is to drop that animal in its tracks. Also, on Dangerous Game one never stops shooting, you shoot until you either run out of ammo, or you have no shot, or your problem is solved, and even when its solved you shoot again to pay the insurance. One does not shoot and watch to see what happens. But everyone I know or associate with always does their best to get that first shot right, and after keep shooting.

As for not being on the Christmas Card list, yes, my heart is pained somewhat with that knowledge, but I do understand!

And you don't have to ask me anything when you get ready for your big African adventure, although I would be more than happy to help you any way I could, there are some mighty fine chaps right here on AR that are just as competent and could assist you well in that regard.

Too bad we did get off to a bad start.
Michael