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Hi guys, Was at the range yesterday sighting in my latest pet project, a Marlin 444SS with the XS Lever Rail mount. I've got a Leupold 2.5x scout scope mounted forward on Warne QD rings. The whole package works really well; the grouping with a 300gr Hornady XTP is one ragged hole at 100 yards. Figured in addition to sighting in the scope, we'd do the open sights, too. Took the scope off (which was attached securely), goofed around with the sights for a while, and put the scope back on to check the zero once again. To my surprise, the first shot at 100 yards was a whopping 5 INCHES high of where it was before. Windage was still perfect, though. Checked the tightness of everything, and it was all fine. Scope went back into the same slots on the rail as it came off of; no issues with taking it off or putting it back on. I'm a little disconcerted/disappointed with this occurrence. This is my first experience with QD rings, and I know many others have had great success with them. I've no reason to doubt the quality of the rings; they appear excellent. Does anyone have any experience with this and/or any ideas on what could be going on? The only thing I could think of is there's a slight bit of back and forth play in the rail before you tighten the rings. When I started checking things, I made sure to force it all the way forward before I torqued the rings back down. I could live with an inch or so of impact shift with this type of setup (I'm realistic here), but 5 inches is excessive. Thoughts? _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | ||
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Did you tighten the levers to the same spot; i.e., the same tension Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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have you removed and replaced it since? maybe it will keep the new POA. my best guess is that you attached the rings to the bases, installed the scope in the rings, and then shot it. if you did not R&R the scope before you shot it, maybe there was some torsion, stress, whatever from the scope installation. just a guess. | |||
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Yeah, that's what I was first thinking, but the levers went back to pretty much the same place.
That's what I'm hoping. I don't remember the process I went through to put it on the first time, but maybe I just need to be more precise with the placement. Like I mentioned, I was running low on loaded ammo, so I didn't have enough time to check it out. Fingers crossed it was just a fluke of having a new setup. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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I had simular problems on a plainsgame hunt in So. Africa some years ago...Finally found the problem, the spring loaded arm was kicking out of position from recoil and the lever was allowing the arm to move, and allowed the rear base to get loose..I resighted taped it up and hunted the rest of the week with no incident..I think Warne needs to use a stronger spring in the lever positioning lever. Another thing that happened was the lever finally worked its way to a position where I could not work the bolt, thats when I figured out the problem with losing its zero..Warne levers should be on the off side of the bolt, but then the rear lever interferes with the bolt release on a Mauser, so the lever must be cut to work.. Anyway, I gave up and went to Talleys...That was many years ago and Warne may have corrected the situation by now..don't know. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Thanks, Ray. I hunted deer all week with them this season without an issue. Now that rifle season's over here in PA, I'll use the winter to explore the issue and operation to see if there's a rhyme or reason to why they shifted. I'm suspecting there's nothing technically wrong with them, more me just needing to figure out the intricacies of how they work with my 444. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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I've used Warne QD rings with a couple scopes on a few rifles from .22LR to .50 wildcats since 2004 and never had an issue that wasn't operator error. The springs that hold the lever position seem plenty robust in my limited experience. As mentioned above, I'd consider bedding the scope base(s) in as stress-free a manner as possible so that varying torque on the levers has minimal effect on POI shift. Loctite the base screws for good measure, and do as you said with removing all slack in the base cross-slots to provide a sure abutment against recoil. For what it's worth, I can remove my scopes and reinstall them and have virtually no POI shift. Lastly, if you're using a soft scope mount material then the material might crush some with a lot of force on the QD levers and may shift POI, that should stablize eventually. POI may also shift if there's debris when re-installing the scope. Hope you figure it out. | |||
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It doesn't take much to mess up a QD, and most are less than satisfactory when just screwed on like a std. Scope mount unit.. When doing a bolt rifle, I first of all surface grind the action, then hand fit the bases to the action with inletting black, at the same time I set my scope adjustments to the center of the scopes focal plane. Then I hone/file the bases to as close to the rifles bore (bore sight) as I can. All is square to the bore and the bore is square to the world..If you do this then the QDs return to exact zero every time. My guess it that you may have high spots on the bottom of the Weaver bases, but more than likely the slots are a sloppy match and need to be squared up. Always work from the center of the scopes focal plane because if you get the zero out on the edges of the adjustments then it normally won't return to zero. The reason claw mounts are so accurate to return is handfitting the receiver and everything above it..same applies to all QDs. I am surprised at the number of guns I see with QDs and the owners believe they return to zero dead on...95% or better won't return to within an inch and most won't return within 2 inches of zero, and surprisingly most say "well thats close enough!" To me that isn't satisfactory at all. I want the rifle to return to 0 capable of the same accuracy as it would have with double dove tail permenent rings and bases.. The claw is the best QD ever, but also incredibly expensive. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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i had the same problem as Ray with my alaskan 375 ruger. after three springs that didnt last they sent me all parts needed to fix it and a brand new set of rings that i sold as fast as i can. no more Warne for me and it was in 2011 so not that long ago. | |||
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Huh. Interesting others have had similar experiences as me, but a LOT of other people regard them as great and have no issues. Now that the rifle season's over here in PA, I'll goof around with them to see what's actually going on. I still think the system's a good one, and I'd take within an inch or inch and a half of original zero and call it good. I'll agree, Ray, the European claw mounts I've seen are magically engineered. I've fooled around with a set of EAW's before, and those I can believe return to dead nuts zero. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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Clayman, In many cases in the world of gundome, some will allow that they have had no problems when in truth they have not used the item enough to know and that works the other way also. Not being critical but many are once a year hunters, bought a gun, had it scoped, and are satisfied and think all is well..and there are those that hunt year around and are OCD, and then all those in between..So we mostly learn these lessons the hard way and if fact that just may be the best answer. I found out early on that the EAWs are best on calibers that don't have a lot of recoil, and also they are critical to mounting,j otherwise they are a good system. Personally, I like Talleys and actually the old cheap Weavers work as good as any if you keep the tension on the lock screws the same by taking note of their position. My all time favorites were Lynn Brownells QDs, but hard to find these days. I suspect that all Warne needed to do was to use a stronger retaining spring. I don't like the levers on any of the new systems, they are too clunky, but a little hand work and checkering can make the much nicer. I intend to try the Leupold QDs at some point, they sure look nice and should work..We'll see. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Two possible explanations for your problem: Did you make sure, that the recoil shoulder in the rings is solid against the FRONT of the Weaver / Pica notch??? And my observation: The Warnes are very well made ... the only mistake is, that the separation of the halves goes through the whole ring. And IMO the scope will turn ... each and every scope tightening will turn the glass, confusing me at looking through... Regards, Hermann formerly, before software update, known as "aHunter", lost 1000 posts in a minute | |||
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I recently purchased about a dozen or so old, new Pachmyer Low Swing rings and bases from a good friend of mine, some used and some NIB..I installed two set on rifles I had on hand, a 9.3x62 Mauser 98 custom and a 270 pre 64 mod. 70 Win. I shot some groups with both flipping the scope off and on between shots..Both guns are proven 3/4 to 1 inch 3 shot group guns. these test groups averaged just a tad over 1.5 inch 3 shot groups and that may have been me, I have good and bad days at the bench. I suppose I'LL keep a few and Peddle the rest of them. I would love to have a couple of these for a 99 Savage. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Sorry, I'm a little slow to notice being called out when I didn't expect to be. Thanks for marginalizing my experience. Now I'm either a liar, just ignorant or a member of some unquantifiable 5% that knows how to use a QD product. I post from my own experience, which still stands. You posted your experience about the lever failure. You did not say you tested repeatability. With a 200 yard zero my long range competition gun and my scope with QD rings will hold ~.5 MOA with a 200 yard zero, removing and reinstalling my scope between every shot. So yes "that's close enough" for me. I deliberately tested this or I would not have continued to use them. This system has had several thousand 7mm WSM rounds through it, so it is routinely exposed to moderate recoil. I'd ask that if you don't have first hand experience then, please, do not post your opposing opinion just because you had a negative experience with the product in the past. | |||
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My experiences are similar to jpl's. I have used a lot of QD mounting systems. Talley. Leupold, Warne, Recknagel, EAW, German Claw, Badger and probably a few others that I cannot remember right now. As someone else said even the old Weaver mount works pretty darn good as a QD mount. I have used them on everything from .22 rimfires to hard kicking magnum and levergun cartridges as well as light and heavy machineguns. My results have been mostly positive. The few times I have had failures on a QD mount or any other mount for that matter the problem was mounting or manufacturing errors, both easily identified and corrected. I test a QD mount by firing groups with the scope removed and remounted between every shot. The next test is to fire three shot groups and remove the scope between these groups. I do that to see if the POA/POI shifts due to the scope settling. Good to know for follow up shots. Remember, mounting and remounting requires consistency in the process. On take down rifles, I completely disassemble/reassemble the rifle between shots to include returning it to the case. Clayman: I have your exact setup in 45-70. Hard kicking leverguns are as unforgiving as double rifles when it comes to shooting them consistently from a bench rest. I have noticed rising groups when I let the forearm recoil free vs holding on to it and pulling the gun tight into my shoulder. I developed a bad habit of shooting more relaxed with a scope than with irons and it frustrated me until I figured it out. I have had to trim at least one screw on every XS base I have ever mounted so I could tighten them properly before they bottom out. Don't be afraid to check your mounts to ensure the rings are not stressing the scope. I had a set of warne rings drive me crazy on a .375 H&H recently. I had to install my scope ring alignment bars before I could figure out what I was doing wrong. Check all the variables and don't get frustrated. You have a good set up for that rifle. Larry | |||
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I had a Marlin 1895 SBL with the scout scope arrangement. I tried to do exactly what you are describing using Leupold QRW rings. Results were very disappointing with about 2 inches of change. For giggles I repeated my experiment using Leupold Mark 4 rings and had virtualy no change. I have no idea why one would work so much better unless its tolerances are much better. I have a buddy who is retired military who insists on using some of the expensive Picatinny rails (Ferrell SP?) on his guns. The low priced rails and those factory stock on some guns are really sloppy in his opinion. I didn't test that theory, however. I've reached the same conclusion as Ray. For my money I use Talley products when possible. Did you check for scope movement within the rings after shooting? A 444 is pretty stout and the scope may have moved in the rings. Put a little dot of nail polish on the ring and scope and try it again. If the scope is sliding the dot will be broken. Also, try using different slots in your base and repeating the test to see if the deviation is constant. | |||
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JPL, I did not call you out, I have never even heard of you until now..Let me make it clear that my posts are not directed at any one individual. I only related what I have learned from being in the gun making business and hunting business for most of a lifetime. I have no reason to doubt that some have no problems, but others do, and the reason is mostly because those that got a good grind on the surface of their factory actions have no or very little problem, but many actions are out of wack and that puts a strain on the scope bases and mounts, and many shooters never know they have a problem..I have had to work on their guns in hunting camp on a few occasions..I have seen many scopes that would not return to zero and I am the one who said the old Weavers are about as good as any if set up right and the slots are in the same position with the same number of turns. Basically what I said and am saying is the folks that don't have trouble with QDs are such as Ranger above, they test them and fix them, they don't trust them to fate and manufacturers adds. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Those are the best system ever made I think. I would love a few but most of my bolt guns have no sights. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Lever Action Rifles Warne QD Rings not Returning to Zero on 444
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