I feel like one of the insurgents in Iraq, mentioning lever actions and Africa in the heart of 'No lever actions shooting cast bullets have the power to stop charging bull field mice in Africa' country.'
Maybe one of the advocates of only '105 MM doubles shooting depleted uranium are powerful enough' would like to help us put together a hunt in 2005? This way all the lever action shooting cast bullets trouble makers could go to Africa get slaughtered by African bull titmouse and the the rest could say 'I told you so!'
Any other lever action with cast bullet shooters interested?
Jim

I'll go if I can take my 444Marlin. A 330grLFNGC at 2100'/sec might just work.
wort

If a few of the lever guys could do a hunt for the various plains game it would be fun, maybe cheaper, educational. Plus we could come back to the African hunting thread with tales of having stopped Angolian bull butterflies in mid charge with a 44 caliber or 45 caliber bullet fired from a lever action.
I've got a Winchester 1886 in 45-70 that would go with me for sure. And I'm going to order a Winchester 1895 in 405 Winchester today, that I'd like to take.
Would you use jacketed or cast bullets in your Marlin?
Jim

I've been to Africa, but did not hunt. I'm not really all that wound up about hunting in Africa in general, but I'm beginning to feel that it just might be fun going over there to hunt buffalo with a lever rifle. Don't have a lot of use for lever action repeaters, but the BS on this board almost makes the idea worth it.

Brent

Amen Pete, the "Big 5" don't interest me much with exception of the Cape Buffalo as it's the only one i'd consider eating out of the 5, and they are in no way shape or form close to being endangered. Plains game sounds like fun especially the warthog, though not that keen on Zebra, feel funny shooting a horse no matter how bad the paint job. Anyone here know if the Garret 44 mag 310 grain Hammerheads will feed through a Marlin 94?

Anyone doubting a lever guns effectiveness on large tough african game( ole m'bogo particularly) should read this months Rifle shooter. There is an articlae(part two) about someone using a 4570 in Africa to hunt buff. He shot a big very old male in te shoulder using a Cor-bon 405 FMJ. The bullet penetrated both shoulders of the old male and went right on through both shoulders of a cow standing some 7 yards behind it. The male took of and he finished him with a shot that went from hind quarters to the far shoulder.

I believe he also killed the cow where it stood.
The lever gun dropped American Bison in their tracks as well at plainsgame distances.
I know my 45-70 and 444 are good for the lesser antelope and I wouldn't even need a gunbearer for the little slabside.
I don't think the lever guns are appropriate for the big 5 or 6 or 7 but a two rifle battery is more common than not.
It does give one cause for thought and better dreams at night.
Frank

Finally, someone is telling the truth about what a PROPERLY LOADED .45/70 will do..... NO 300-grain bullets for Africa!!

I think they are OK on non dangerous game...Deer, antelope and a lot of african game..

I have shot a lot of big stuff with the 45-70, 45-90 and latly the 50 Beowulf..On big animals like elk, bison they just do not suit me at all...they cause long drawn out tracking jobs with good solid hits...

Two elk last year that went 400 yards or better, neither left a blood trail, and a bison this year that went several miles and was on his feet for a long time after taking two shoulder shots. this one took two 535 gr. 50 Beowolf rounds at 1850 FPS before he traveled that 2 miles.
It is very hard to shoot through these big animals with these old guns, even with hard cast bullets from my experience. So I protest them for that reason, I base it on what I see not read...

Ray
Leaving the buffalos. elephants, lions, leopards, rhinos out of the equation. How do the various antelope in Africa do with the 40 and 45 caliber lever actions, with cast bullets, do?
Jim

Arkeypete,
I think they work OK with proper loads on plainsgame, and I have seen them used on about everything, and I have shot a good deal of game with them, but in all honestly I have not been impressed with how quickly they kill unless you use a big 50-120 sharps...I definately recommend hard cast bullets and close shots...

They are not Buffalo guns, Bison or especially Cape Buffalo and all the tall tales in the world will not stop a charge..I have killed Cape Buffalo with a milsurp 8mm Mauser with old ammo that fired every 3rd round, but that does not make it a Buffalo gun, nor does one silly artical in a magazine and in another recent article about the gun writer from Idaho that shot his bull about 4 or 5 times and chased him all over Africa with his 45-70 and acted like since it killed the bull it was the perfect buffalo rifle, but what if the bull had come for him? would the result have been the same?, I don't know and don't want to...that is not for me, I have looked that animal in the eye too many times to lose all respect for him...

I'm very content to use my 94 25-35 or 30-30 on mule deer behind my house and an ocassional whitetail in Texas..Have even shot a few elk with the 25-35 and thats pushing your luck..

But to each his own and I will be glad to send your group to RSA on a plainsgame hunt for $150 per day plus trophy fees or even to Tanzania for Buffalo for $8850.00 or to one of my several ranches for fair chase trophy bison hunts for $2750.00 and you can decide such things based on your personal experiences and perhaps they will differ from mine. After all we all make decisions based on experiences, and no one has all the answers, just opinions.

Gents,

Will this argument ever be put to rest?
I started viewing this site several years ago and the pro and con about lever gunning DG animals is still the same.
Those that back it are ridiculed and those who don't believe in it continue to ridicule.
Mr. Atkinson, and few others here, have faced DG animals many times and know of what they speak. They have related many instances of large dangerous animals taking heavy loads of considered proper rounds and the animals not dying at the first, second, third, and sometimes many other shots. I remember one instance, written by Mr. Atkinson, where the Buff took several 458's and few other large rounds before dying.
Ray has also related stories of American big game being hit with 45/70 or equivalent loads and the animals running off to die.
I have also read Ray's stories as to hunting Buff with a surplus military rifle.
I think what I'm trying to say here is, it's not the gun in the man's hands as much as which man's hands are holding the gun.
I have stated many times here that I personally have not hunted dangerous game, but given the opportunity, would hunt Buff with a heavy 45/70.
I am not recommending that a 45/70 be used by anyone who is not comfortable with it.

Finally, let's have another raffle for a lucky or maybe a unlucky winner to go to Africa and shoot a Buff with a Lever Gun, 45/70. Won't settle the argument one way or the other, but sure gets me an opportunity to win the trip.HI

Roger QSL

Ray
I think you'd agree that there's a bit of difference between the 25-35, 30-30 class of cartridges and the 45-70, 444, 405 Winchester class of cartridges.
If I should hunt the Cape Buff I'd do it with the proper tool, 40 caliber and up, bolt gun.
What's the distance of most plains game shots? Would minute of Dik-Dik at 200 yards be appropriate? What I'm asking is a 12*12 to 8*8 steel gong at 100, 200 and 300 yards appropriate sized targets, for practice?
Jim

HI,

MR.Atkinson, nice to see you here,I would like your opinion, this really has to do with the bullets them selfs. Is it the hard case bullet that in your opinion is the problem?. Let me try to put it another way if there was a lever that could shoot a 550-560 grain bullet from 2150-2200fps, would you say it would be better going with a bullet design like a Woodleigh instead of a Hard Case.I think many have the problem with the Hard Case which very well maybe a problem?.I am working on woodleighs for my lever 50-110, I still will need to do a few more things and I am sure I will get a 600 Grain PPSP to work. I will of coures need to make a flat nose and shorten the length, which I have done, and I have end up with a weight of betweeen 550-560 grains. I will make a new cannelure and now may just start to swage them.The point I am trying to make there is no question about woodeighs and there record even 535 at 2200 fps works well for BUFF. So I think maybe if the right amount of fps and size of bullet is don from a lever it will work for BUFF.I too think of numbers and that is why there is a minium requirement for weight, SD, FPS, size of DIA, if these are done. Bolt, lever, is not the point,over all bolt is better as range will be awhole less a problem, big wide flat nose bullets drop like rocks after 200 yards.I have shoot Kodiak bone core 500 grain bullet at 2200fps with ease, my 525 WFNHC at 2200 fps, I beleive ,have not done it yet, I will get the Woods now 560 grains to 2100fps with no problem.This will have over a .304 Sd over 5,000 Fp of Muzzel energy over 500grain in weight and 2100fps, and it will be with a bullet with a history of kills on Buff,Then I will go on a BUFF hunt in no more than two years I am sure, want less than.I am sure I will be bring my 416 Rigby from Brockman with me. Thanks Kev

HI,

Hard CAST, I was trying to write to fast,but I sure think the Hard Cast bullet is a problem many africa hunters have, Kev