I will always maintain the Winchester levergun to be the absolute supreme saddle gun. My 1895SRC (by Miroku) in .30-06 shooting heavy 220 grain bullets is my favorite. Very reassuring when you're working cattle in bear country as I am here in Montana.

The other day I tried taking a young horse through a bog that I thought wasn't too bad. Turns out it was deeper than I thought... he went down, I jumped clear, and he rolled on my rifle. Horse is fine, I am fine but the stock is broken in several places. My fault so I cant be too upset.

Sorry to hear it, HawkCreek. If nothing else, I think you have broken new ground at AR with your side-by-side photos

Got her fixed with some two part epoxy. Let it dry for two days and she's got some scars now but works as good as new. She even still shoots true!

Those ‘95s are mean looking guns. I’ve wanted one in .405 for a while, but haven’t been able to get it.

Every day working guns some times take it on the chin.

That's true. I bought a Ruger # 1 in 7X57 from a member here several years ago because he thought it was so pretty that he didn't have the heart to take in the woods + maybe scratch it.

I know what you mean about “too pretty”. I had a Mannlicher stocked custom Swede that I finally bought a Ramline stock just to hunt with.

For give an Easterner, but could someone explain how the saddle ring on a saddle ring carbine works? Do you simply tie the rifle to the saddle/horse with a piece of leather to keep it from being lost if it jumps out of a scabbard during rough riding?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
For give an Easterner, but could someone explain how the saddle ring on a saddle ring carbine works? Do you simply tie the rifle to the saddle/horse with a piece of leather to keep it from being lost if it jumps out of a scabbard dipuring rough riding?

Your last sentence is correct. In the 1960's and up the manufacturers did it to give the carbine that "western" look.

Thank you.

quote:

Your last sentence is correct. In the 1960's and up the manufacturers did it to give the carbine that "western" look.

Actually the saddle ring on Winchesters goes back far earlier than the 1960's.

The "Saddle Ring" in various forms, goes back to at least France late 1700s, flintlock Hussar Carbine; then they were fairly large rings to affix the carbine to either the saddle, or a shoulder strap on the soldier.
The ones Winchester put on from at least the immediate post civil war era, are tiny things, fairly useless and no one would trust them to actually hold the carbine on. Hence the scabbard. Of course, any installed in more modern times are just for decoration.
I never did find a carbine in your pictures, but it's too bad it broke.
As for the .405 WCF; every Model 95 I get my hands on, gets rebarreled to 405. Any Miroku will work fine for that.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
The "Saddle Ring" in various forms, goes back to at least France late 1700s, flintlock Hussar Carbine; then they were fairly large rings to affix the carbine to either the saddle, or a shoulder strap on the soldier.
The ones Winchester put on from at least the immediate post civil war era, are tiny things, fairly useless and no one would trust them to actually hold the carbine on. Hence the scabbard. Of course, any installed in more modern times are just for decoration.
I never did find a carbine in your pictures, but it's too bad it broke.
As for the .405 WCF; every Model 95 I get my hands on, gets rebarreled to 405. Any Miroku will work fine for that.

Any 1895 SRC is a bit of a misnomer in a way. Mine is technically a carbine but its every bit as long and even heavier than my bolt action (and scoped) .30-06... go figure. But speaking of rebarreling, I'd love an 1895 in .405 reconfigured to be a carbine. I dont know if there were any originals ever done up that way but its sure be a comfort having a .405 on the saddle up here in bear country.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Your last sentence is correct. In the 1960's and up the manufacturers did it to give the carbine that "western" look.

Actually the saddle ring on Winchesters goes back far earlier than the 1960's.

I and we know that, what I meant by that by 1960 it was cosmetic.

quote:

Originally posted by vzerone:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Your last sentence is correct. In the 1960's and up the manufacturers did it to give the carbine that "western" look.

Actually the saddle ring on Winchesters goes back far earlier than the 1960's.

I and we know that, what I meant by that by 1960 it was cosmetic.

Not sure why it suddenly became cosmetic in the sixty's?

In reality few actually used the ring on an SRC ever.

The answer to that is easy; it was the height of the Western TV shows and anything Western/Cowboy related would sell.
It's marketing.
Where is your Roy Rogers lunch box?

my mom still has it, and my wrist rocket.

the saddle ring at one time was used with a loop to hang the gun from the saddle horn.
quite often it was a pistol or more likely 3 or even 4 pistols and not a rifle.

later when scabbards were used for rifles the saddle ring was used with a short thong of leather to also attach the rifle to the saddle strap.
this held the rifle down in the open ended scabbard and prevented it from being drug out by brush or whatever.

Pistols and revolvers would have saddle holsters. I have never seen a loose pistol hanging. Saddle rings date from the flintlock era.

Darn shame about the stock.

BH63

Cavalry men wore a leather belt (or sling) with a clip on it. When shooting from the saddle, the clip was attached to the ring. That way the rifle could be retrieved without dismounting.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Originally posted by vzerone:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Your last sentence is correct. In the 1960's and up the manufacturers did it to give the carbine that "western" look.

Actually the saddle ring on Winchesters goes back far earlier than the 1960's.

I and we know that, what I meant by that by 1960 it was cosmetic.

Not sure why it suddenly became cosmetic in the sixty's?

In reality few actually used the ring on an SRC ever.

Hey Cougarz probably for the same reason they put belts on bottle necked magnum cartridges that didn't need them...SALES!!!!

Oh yeah, I remember well the Western craze in the 50s + early 60s. Anything "Cowboy" was a seller. I think about the lanyard ring on the butts of revolvers + some semis as well as the rings on 1911 mags. For the same reason. I have seen pics of U.S. forces on horseback crossing the Rio Grande in search of Villa, festooned with multiple magazines hanging from lanyard lines. Makes reloading at a full gallup possible. I recall the line in "For Whom The Bells Toll" when the Spanish officed admonishes Robert Jordan for having a lanyard on his Star pistol. He says, "Someday, someone is going to strangle you with that."

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
The answer to that is easy; it was the height of the Western TV shows and anything Western/Cowboy related would sell.
It's marketing.
Where is your Roy Rogers lunch box?

Funny you should mention that. I actually still have my Roy Rogers lunchbox!

What I really meant by the saddle ring comment was that they had been installed on various Winchester lever actions from the very beginning and it's doubtful that many folks ever actually used them. Models that didn't sport them were known as Eastern carbines. I have a 1940 "Eastern" M94 that was later fitted with an M64 barrel, magazine and stock. I posted a picture here a few days back.

The old timers just used a strip of leather and hung the gun on the saddle horn, lost its use sometime in 1900 or there abouts with the invention of the saddle scabbard..

My first two guns were 94 SRCs (saddle ring carbines) and still have the ring, one is wrapped in thread like rawhide to keep it silent while crawling up on Mexican rustlers on the Neuces strip of texas by my Texas Ranger granddad..the other is a family 25-35 win mod. 94, the ring has no use today. the guns however are still as good as ever..I still have mine plus another rare Win mod 64 saddle ring carbine

For what its worth, those early 94s were so much better made and most shoot so much better than todays Winchester mod 94s...

Rifles don't jump out of saddle scabbards, they can fall out if the scabbard doesn't fit and many of todays saddle scabbards don't fit..

I carry my gun on the right side butt back not forward..A Win 94 is still the best saddle gun made for the working cowboy, its not so heavy that you have to jump up and down every so often in the off side stirrup as the saddle hangs to the side of the heavier guns..A heavy bolt action should be on the left side butt forward and not riding on the scope, scope needs to be up with no weight on it..I see these articles in gun magazines teaching saddle scabbards tecnnique and have yet to read one that the scribe had a clue..most have no angle on the gun and its destined to slip out of the scabbard as the butt needs pointing up at almost 45 degrees no matter the carry..

Bottom line is the gun should never slip out of the scabbard, a scoped gun should have flap cover to keep the brush out of the scope lens and that in itself will secure the gun..the leather belts should be in the D-rings and wrapped around the scabbard, not in the d rings hanging on the d's that's too low and asking for truble,Around the pommel for the front of the scabbard is acceptable also..Always check and keep you straps in good condition, they don't both break at the same time and a whirling saddle scabbard on a horse is pure excitement most of the time..

All those Winchester became popular when people traveled with rifles. They are still useful as ever.
I used a M 95 in 405 for awhile, until my editor asked for it back. I then bought one of the earlier Browning M95's without the safety in 30-06 with the intention of having it rebored to either 35 Whelen or 9.3x62.
But I have killed a few really big bears with "just a 30-06" using 200 & 220 gr Partitions and they would do virtually the same thing and penetrate as deep, or more, than the larger bores, Plus it's easier and cheaper finding practice ammo.

I can convert any Model 95 to a 405 WCF.

quote:

Bottom line is the gun should never slip out of the scabbard, a scoped gun should have flap cover to keep the brush out of the scope lens and that in itself will secure the gun..the leather belts should be in the D-rings and wrapped around the scabbard, not in the d rings hanging on the d's that's too low and asking for truble..

Bottom line is the gun should never slip out of the scabbard, a scoped gun should have flap cover to keep the brush out of the scope lens and that in itself will secure the gun..the leather belts should be in the D-rings and wrapped around the scabbard, not in the d rings hanging on the d's that's too low and asking for truble..
** Send us a Pic someday **

I believe the saddle ring or ring and slider predate the scabbard by a long shot. Using it basically as a tether and usually hung from a double loop and behind the rider. loosely hung from the back of the saddle and also to the rider. Same as with the pistol. Purpose being that the firearm never be separated from the rider... pretty much exactly in such cases as the OP mentions. Rifle was more attached to the rider than the horse.

That being said I had one of the 405's with the prettiest rainbow colored charcoal case hardening you ever saw. Case of too pretty to shoot so sold the damn thing... made a pretty good profit of it too. Though now I WISH I'd HAVE KEPT IT.

Phil

Zephyr,
I can do that first warm day we have, I put it on the wrong way and then on the proper way, but you or someone will have to put it on AR, I can only send pics to individuals, never learned to post pics, never tried very hard..

If you guys want me to do that then let me know, maybe it will save your gun, or your self, if you want to see excitement let one strap break and the other stay attached, and have gun in a scabbard swinging around and around until your horse breaks into a buck..Its good watching if the rider survives...

I'm not sure if Ray's comment was directed at me or just made in general. My rifle definitely didn't fall out of the scabbard, the stock was broken when the horse went down and rolled on it.

Though we disagree on the direction of draw for the rifle I absolutely agree with him about having plenty of angle on a scabbard.

This is about where I like to have my rifle/scabbard. Sits just under my knee and isn't uncomfortable at all. Very secure there, I've never had one fall out while roping a rangy cow.




This is the same saddle on a different horse. I got the scabbard a little farther forward than I prefer but it worked out ok. With it this far forward it's easier to catch it on brush and branches if you're going through the thick stuff still it wasn't a problem for me that day.

No sir was not referring to you or anyone in general..Just thought it was a good time to discuss the saddle sabbard and its use, to perhaps save someones rifle, even then accidents happen and folks that pack a gun on a horse have plenty of them, but so do folks that pack a gun on foot...

I would call your break and easy fix..splits are usually easy, gouges can be a problem.

A pic of a re-enactor with shoulder strap attached to carbine at saddle ring.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C72K...enactment-C72K7W.jpg

Another: http://darkroom.baltimoresun.c...toSwipe1573255878336

The original single point sling on an assault rifle.

That picture sez one thing to me, if the gov. says this is the way, run for your life..

I can just see some dude trying to get his leg over the butt of that upright extended stock and it almost a guarantee the horse will start to move and our boy will surley fall on his fat ass. I base this on observation of the right side butt back that I use, keep the butt down a little more and its for the young and agile cowboy for the most part or old timers who bend the knee over the butt then straighten the leg..

I feel a bit sorry for American horses , having to carry those magnificent saddles with horns, breastcollars, martingales(?), ropes, scabbards and bags.

At our place the saddles didn't even have monkeygrips. My father did make a short holster thing to carry his old Winchester single-shot but mostly the D rings went unused. When he carried a stockwhip it was generally in his hand. We did rope calves but never from a horse (our Murray greys were so quiet you didn't really need one for that).

Well thinks from the man from Snowy River!

I prefer the butt slightly higher and a bit further back but that was a borrowed scabbard so modifying it wasnt an option. Never had a problem with offside butt forward. Rifle sits right under my knee and I've never once been hung up going through an alder thicket or any other brush. I never got my leg hung up on a rifle either mounting or dismounting either. Reason I prefer the high butt forward placement is it's the easiest to draw from any position. Dismounted I can reach over the horse if I need to get the rifle out from the near side. And butt forward never has the issue I've seen a lot of guys have with saddlebags and rifle butts fighting for the same limited space.

I had a Calvin Allen saddle that I used in team roping. I was a left-handed heeler (quite an advantage). Later on, my ex wanted to ride English so I gave it a try even though I was kinda embarrassed until I keep telling myself that Patton rode English so nothing to be ashamed of.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I had a Calvin Allen saddle that I used in team roping. I was a left-handed heeler (quite an advantage).

Sarcasm I assume.
I’m left handed but possibly the best thing my dad (also a lefty) did for me was force me to learn to rope right.