Anyone here shooting a 50 Alaskan on a 1886 or win 71 conversion ?
I have always wondered if you can get more velocity out of these guns than a Marlin conversion? because of the C.O.L limitations of the Marlin?

Bill73'
The following 50 Alaskan introduction from Wikipedia seems reasonably accurate for reference use. please skim it over and then see my questions at the end:


.50 Alaskan
Type
Rifle, Large game
Place of origin
United States
Production history
Designer
Harold Johnson

Designed
1950s
Specifications

Parent case
.348 Winchester

Case type
Rimmed

Bullet diameter
.510 in (13.0 mm)
Neck diameter
.536 in (13.6 mm)
Base diameter
.553 in (14.0 mm)
Rim diameter
.610 in (15.5 mm)
Rim thickness
.070 in (1.8 mm)
Case length
2.10 in (53 mm)

Ballistic performance
450 gr (29 g) BAR FP 1,718 ft/s (524 m/s) 2,950 ft·lbf (4,000 J)
500 gr (32 g) JFP 1,674 ft/s (510 m/s) 3,112 ft·lbf (4,219 J)
525 gr (34 g) LFN GC 1,694 ft/s (516 m/s) 3,346 ft·lb(4,537 J)



Harold’s favorite load in the .50 Alaskan was 51.5 grains (3.34 g) of IMR-4198 with a Barnes 400-grain (26 g) flatnose, jacketed bullet for about 2,100 ft/s (640 m/s) and just under 4,000 ft·lbf (5,400 J)of muzzle energy.

Bill, something to consider;
Loading a 400 grain .458 bullet to 2100fps in a 45-70 and 45-90 is no problem.
My 1886 .45-90 "Elephant gun" ammo uses a 450 grain bullet at 2150 fps and with a frontal brain shot, passed through the head and well into the body. Do the math (450 grains at 2150 fps) and get 4618 foot pounds ME. This was a custom load from Grizzly Cartridge specifically for a bullet testing Safari in Africa.

So, other than "having fun with guns" , why spend the $$ on the larger bore guns and ammo when it is obviously not necessary to kill the game?
Since I feel this way, am I doomed to use only a few rifles because they get the job done?

crshelton,
"having fun with guns",you nailed it pretty good,I like playing with Levers,got enough for anything ha ha,but do not have a 50 in the safe yet,
I have a lot of big bores,it seems that I am doomed to buy some more.

Wish you had received some load data from Grizzly!!

You've got about 0.2"+ more room in an 86/71 action than the Marlin, so you should be able to get a little more pep with an LBT Long Wide Nose bullet design that put more bullet weight outside the case. I would call up Veril Smith and have a talk! With a polycoted grooveless gas checked cast bullet, one should be able to get some pretty outstanding velocities. I would not want to be the recipient of the recoil, though!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Anyone here shooting a 50 Alaskan on a 1886 or win 71 conversion ?
I have always wondered if you can get more velocity out of these guns than a Marlin conversion? because of the C.O.L limitations of the Marlin?

Because the Winchester is a stronger gun.

Because of the way the Marlin receiver/barrel and feed tube are arranged, and the square barrel/chamber threads, the receiver gets mighty thin in the area just in front of the rim recess and for some distance when the chamber is cut for the 0.553" base of the 348 case and the same goes for using a WSM case for the 45-50 Yukon versions...to thin for my taste.

AS long as you load for the ~35kPSI pressure limit of the 50 Alaskan you are seemingly safe as this conversion has been done (and still being done) successfully on Marlins.

An even better solution is to use a 450 Marlin cal rifle as those have "vee" threads with less metal removal and more meat where you need it and it has been taken out to a 450 Yukon (WSM case)

The 86/71 action doesn't have these weaknesses and is also long enough to handle the longer 45/50-90/100 cases.

Some gunsmiths have overcome this limitation by using a higher PSI barrel steel.

You REALLY don't need any more velo in this cartridge, but you can gain it by a longer barrel faster rather than a longer case, but a longer case does have advantages.

If you want more info on this conversion visit Beartooth, Leverguns, and the Marlin levergun forums and there is a reloading/pressure page online for the 50 Al with lots of good information...or just go with a Turnbull Win conversion.

I looked into it very thoroughly several years back to do another switch barrel for my Marlin but finding a 135-150KPSI barrel proved difficult, finding an 1895 Marlin 450 M was just as difficult and I'm too cheap to buy a custom jobby so I settled for an Italian 34" 1874 Sharps 50-90 "Quigley" replica and did a stub barrel in 50-90 on a NEF single shot with a nice fat 1.350" dia. barrel that will handle MUCH more pressure.

I can say with perfect clarity that the recoil on the ~13 lb 1874 at 28KPSI and 400-700 gr bullets is tolerable, but the recoil with the ~7 lb NEF at 45kpsi plus with the same weight bullet makes you wish you hadn't been so rash...and YES I added weight to ~10 lbs which helped a LITTLE.

As with any cartridge, you can up/down load it so going big to begin with is always a good beginning.

50-70 ~72 gr H2O, 50-90 ~115-120 gr H20, 50 Alaskan ~95 gr H20 depending on case brand. If you want velo, go with a replica or Turnbull 50-90...more readily available, longer barrel, already longer case and more capacity...cheaper than a Turnbull but, argumentatively speaking, not as good and you will get all the velo and stomp (at both ends) you can stand...

LUCK

It's not a catalogued item, but Dave Manson sells tooling to modify Marlin receiver threads so that barrels can be precisely fit and have more meat around the chamber. I believe the tooling was designed by Mic McPhersen and maybe be Ben Forkin. He originally designed it when he developing the 510 Kodiak express. That conversion uses the higher strength barrels for sure. The 50 Alaskan does not require high strength barrels when the Manson tooling is applied. The 510 Kodiak operates ar 45k psi.

Bill73,
Fun with guns is also my objective, but since I am not a collector, shooting guns is where most of the funs is. Most of the guns I own were acquired for hunting and there is not enough time to enjoy them all.

WRT load used by Mike, I have not asked for details, but I know he used some of his proprietary powder. I think that I could get the same results if I tried, but my loading and testing buddies ran out of time before the Safari and I still have enough of those heavy loads to shoot a couple dozen more DG. I did use one cartridge on a running bison and it went down hard. Fortunately, my .405 WCF is enough gun for anything on our continent and with the left over .45-90 ammo, I am fixed for a long time. Where are those Zombies?

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Bill73,
Fun with guns is also my objective, but since I am not a collector, shooting guns is where most of the funs is. Most of the guns I own were acquired for hunting and there is not enough time to enjoy them all.

WRT load used by Mike, I have not asked for details, but I know he used some of his proprietary powder. I think that I could get the same results if I tried, but my loading and testing buddies ran out of time before the Safari and I still have enough of those heavy loads to shoot a couple dozen more DG. I did use one cartridge on a running bison and it went down hard. Fortunately, my .405 WCF is enough gun for anything on our continent and with the left over .45-90 ammo, I am fixed for a long time. Where are those Zombies?

Any idea what psi those loads were?

What are the old ballistics for the .50-110 High Velocity loadings for nickel steel barrels? I mean the .50 AK is basically a renamed .50-110, isn't it?
There is a used takedown .50-110 in the Rock Island auction next week for a low price (due to the condition). It has British proofs and at one time probably saw African or Indian usage.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
What are the old ballistics for the .50-110 High Velocity loadings for nickel steel barrels? I mean the .50 AK is basically a renamed .50-110, isn't it?
There is a used takedown .50-110 in the Rock Island auction next week for a low price (due to the condition). It has British proofs and at one time probably saw African or Indian usage.
Cal

The Winchester 50-110 has a longer case than the 50 Alaskan. Finished Alaskan rounds are 2.55 to 2.57 in my modified marlin. The Winchester 50-110 finished round is 2.7 to 2.73 for my rifle. The Winchester is good for at least 100fps all else equal.

Way back when I was playing with my Marlin 336 I email talked with Mr. Mic, bought and read, then used many of his recommendations and has since lost track of him. He was using one of the shorter Marlin actions for his 510 Kodiak at that time, higher strength barrel and his modifications to produce an excellent product.

My 20" Marlin will handle a case LOA of ~2.65", which if you do the calculations basically gives me an additional ~6-7% increase in case volume over the 2.550" standard length...USABLE case capacity from a 0.920", 400 gr bullet and ~100 fs increase in velo using a 2.00" 458 trimmed WM cases at ~43KPSI depending on the powder...in my SMLE where I can seat out to 3.05" I get a BIG increase in velo/energy.

I an NOT a proponent of the humongous rims found in the larger cals as then make for difficult conversions.

I use either a belted mag or a WSM/RUM case. All my various 45 cal nightmares use 458 WM cases or could have just as easily been a 450 Marlin and I only use the rimmed "stuff" in my 45/50 cal single shots.

Variations in ballistics are large considering a 34" bbl/28KPSI limit in one and a 20"/45KPSI I barrel in the other.

I have only one thing against the 50 Alaskan even though it will handle ALL the worlds game and has proved it several times...I have NO use for the rim!!!...and maybe the cost for a custom rifle, there are other equally adept cases out there with much better ballistics.

Wild West Guns used to do the 50 Alaskan, 510 Kodiak and a few other 458 cals but have suspended those for "evaluation" which tells me a ton. They have their 457 WWG which is pressure limited to 43.5KPSI which is the same as Garrets 45-70 or was last time I checked...that may have changed also.

I think there are much better platforms for the 50 Alaskan than the Marlin 1895...except for the 450M where the V threads can be addressed in the same way as Dave's expensive tooling, simply and cheaper...and the same way that "fixing" any rifle receiver that is cut off line...simply recut oversize on both the receiver and the barrel.

The receiver is just something to hang the sights, barrel, stock and magazine on and doesn't appreciably increase the strength of the total package...look at Browning's offerings...my BLR 450 M has an aluminum receiver and will handle anything I stuff down it's throat...within reason, and without complaint.


Actually as a mater of clarification... the 50-90/50-100/50-110 SHARPS are the same cartridge just a different black powder load...they are ALL 2.5" long...the 50 AL is 2.10" long...there is also the 50-110 WIN EXPRESS which is 2.4" long that confuses the issue somewhat.

If you're really interested in all the various iterations and morpho-dites, train on over to those forums I already listed...lots of very good information and updates on this very subject...and do some internet searching...lots of god into as to where to find MORE Scooby-Doo.

LUCK

There is also the 50-100-450 WCF load. The 50 express WCF load used a 300 grain bullet at higher velocity, and the rifles had fairly slow twists. Not many 86's were made with faster twist barrels specifically to handle the 450 grain load. The custom Turbull BP rifle Dave Scoville used in Africa was basically a 50-100-450. It has been discussed here, ad nauseam, but the modern Japanese 1886/71 is bull strong, and can handle 43k cup quite well. Their receivers are made from 4135. Mr. Turnbull can probably comment on what the Italien 86 receivers are made of, and their relative strengths. I believe the Japanese 86's incorporate much of the 71's mechanical upgrades, but their locking lugs do not have the 71's taper. The Italien 86's are more faithful to the original design. They are very strong, but I bet that they are not as durable as the Miroku.

If you are going to convert a 86 or 71 action to a 50 cal you may as well chamber for the original 50/110 but use a faster twist.

Cases are made by Starlne. In one of those rifles you can load to 2.8" if it has been properly modified.

There is more safety margin in using one of those actions compared to a Marlin.

If I had my druthers AND the money I would have Mr. Turnbull do me one of his 50-110 S.S. and I would be 21 again....hahahahaha

LUCK

The 475 Turnbull seems pretty sweet to me.

Has anybody answered my question? Can you get more velocity out of a 71 or 1886 than a marlin? With a 50 Alaskan?

If you are using the longer action chambered for the short 50Ak cartridge, you may not be able to take advantage of the extra action length without custom moulds. So the advantage over a Marlin is down to 100-150 fps due to the higher strength and pressure rating of the 86 or 71 action.

Most of the suitable moulds and bullets are designed for crimping in a 50Ak case to a length best suited to a Marlin conversion. If you want to take advantage of the extra length and strength of the 86 or 71 action you really need to chamber for the longer 50/110, which is 2.4" vs 2.1" for the 50Ak case.

With a modern 1886 conversion in 50/110 you can move a 500gr GC pill at around 2100fps vs around 1800 fps for a 50 Ak in a Marlin.

some good info,thanks to all.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Has anybody answered my question? Can you get more velocity out of a 71 or 1886 than a marlin? With a 50 Alaskan?

answer is yes, because the Winchester will take a higher pressure loading. I thought several of us responded to it directly.

I would appreciate hearing what speeds you are getting?

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Has anybody answered my question? Can you get more velocity out of a 71 or 1886 than a marlin? With a 50 Alaskan?

answer is yes, because the Winchester will take a higher pressure loading. I thought several of us responded to it directly.

The 86/71 can take more pressure and can be set up for longer overall length. If you use an LBT wide long nose (WLN) design, you can gain case capacity by putting more of the bullet outside of the case, since the max OAL in the 86 is 2.8".

You can fudge a bit on the first round if you use a pointy bullet and throat for it, but you will either have to shoot it out or pull the lever and bolt to get it out.

For specific spritzer type bullets and specially setup cases I can use 2.78-2.82" COAL rounds in my Marlin 458 American, and similar setups in my SMLE 458 American, 3.070" max mag COAL but 3.35" plus "up the pipe"...VERY CLOSE to 458 WM low end loads.

I made a lever bolt with a large head to expedite this process when I was "playing".

Won't "kiss and tell" any more other than this, don't want anyone's "ooowys" on my head.

None of this is rocket science, just judicious use of readily available components, staying safe with the pressures and umpteen years of "wonder if this will work"...then DOING it myself...for fun!!!

LUCK

Spritzer? Is that a joke like 'boolit' or just higorance?

A spitter in a lever action 50 seems useless as teets on a boar hog, in my humble opinion, or perhaps I should say that I would personaly have no application for a spitzers in lever action 50's. Can't imagine why one would want to do that. To each his own I guess.

Absolutely...just hignorance or maybe a typo or maybe someone without any since, or is that sense??? of perspective or...

I've been using "spritzers" in lever guns for almost 50 years...maybe you need to try a few and see just how effective they are...EVERYONE needs to learn up now and then...even if they think there isn't any "application" for it. You have to be able to think beyond the envelope sometimes to see something new and exciting or a new use for an old product. But, Hey, do what you do do best...FISH

LUCK

I've tried out 165 grain Nosler BT's single loaded in a 307 Win Model 94. I guess I just personally wouldn't have an application for spitzers in a lever action 50 cal. Like I said, to each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
You can fudge a bit on the first round if you use a pointy bullet and throat for it, but you will either have to shoot it out or pull the lever and bolt to get it out.

For specific spritzer type bullets and specially setup cases I can use 2.78-2.82" COAL rounds in my Marlin 458 American, and similar setups in my SMLE 458 American, 3.070" max mag COAL but 3.35" plus "up the pipe"...VERY CLOSE to 458 WM low end loads.

I made a lever bolt with a large head to expedite this process when I was "playing".

Won't "kiss and tell" any more other than this, don't want anyone's "ooowys" on my head.

None of this is rocket science, just judicious use of readily available components, staying safe with the pressures and umpteen years of "wonder if this will work"...then DOING it myself...for fun!!!

LUCK

very interesting,I load to max lengths in all my levers, to go over max length for the first shot ? could give some serious energy increase for big game,all my guns are either 71's or 1886's,,I would be happy just using FN bullets but don't like the idea of having to fire the gun or disassemble it to get the round out,I am assuming the case is held in the bolt & no way to dislodge it? hmm maybe with a take down gun? at shorter distances the p.o.i would not matter either with a change in speed.

I've had/had a number of lever guns in the past and present and now have a 356 W, 444M, 450M (Browning BLR and 336) and 458 American(336 and SMLE) on a switch barrel Modified Marlin 336 receiver. They all responded to differing levels of ballistic increases by single loading the first round at up to plus ~0.300" in total COAL depending on cal and whatever "pointy" bullet worked out to be the better as to getting the longest COAL.

Absolutely, Bill/73...it can be a total PITA to deal with that "Long Tom" round, BUT...I made a general statement about getting the loaded round out which, as ALWAYS, a general statement gets taken as gospel too often...specifically...it depended on which caliber and which bullet...the 444M and the 458A had a COAL throat limit which was overcame a bit by using pointy bullets or bore riders and they could be "jiggled" a bit to get to fall out of the port(the extractor DID NOT HOLD the rims.). I didn't try throating those because other factors usually became the limiting factors.

Your guns can already handle 2.8" COAL and I don't know just how much more length you can achieve without also mucking about with case length...there is ALWAYS some limiting factor that must be considered BEFORE attempting any major change. From what little amount of research I've done, pressure limits and COAL might already be at or near the max end for the 71/86 and no realistic way to get beyond except by a judicious study of powder characteristics for the newer powders ort maybe going to a fatter case. My sage advice is to talk to Mr. Turnbull and the other Lever 'smiths directly as to the limits...Not sure whether I WANT anymore whack from the backside of ANY 50 cal levergun beyond a 50 AL OR 50-110...my 12-15 lb 50-90's with 700-900 gr bullets at max loads is more than enough for me, not to mention the other 50 cals at much higher velos tied down to my lead sled and ignited remotely.

The "bolt" I made for the lever(also available to purchase online...somewhere?) makes round removal as simple and quick as emptying a mag or removing a clip and entails dropping the lever about 1/2", pulling the bolt back about 3/8", rolling the rifle over to drop out the round...any more and the ejector might fall out if the rifle is not held right. I don't put the round into the chamber until I'm sure I'll take the shot anyway. The futzing around is a small price to pay for that extra whack.

Remember that energy increases at the square of the velocity and directly proportional to the bullet weight...which means the more velo you can achieve the more energy is available...look up the Kinetic energy formula.

Example - 356 W, 20" bbl, 200 gr Horn SPSP #3510 - 2.56" COAL - 2440fs/2640ftlbs.
356 W, 20" bbl, 200 gr Horn SPSP #3510 - 2.80" COAL - 2540fs/2860ftlbs.

And different powders for each load. This data comes from QL and not my actual data and is for information only.

A standard 356 W runs about 2350fs and a 358 W runs about the same as the lower load in the same length barrel and the actual ballistics should be taken from Chrono readings and the pressure limits of the receiver you are using...NOT case pressure limits or SAMMI pressure limits as receiver pressure limits may be MUCH LESS THAN SAMMI limits, and again depends on MANY other factors.

The 356W is SAAMI'ed at 60191 PSI, the 358W at 58740 PSI...I won't say anything about the differences or what you can do with the data.
There are also loads listed online at various powder maker sites and personal postings that you are welcome to peruse but I won't post that data because I think some of it isn't in anyway safe.


I also did a few other, non-disclosureable, fudges to get that "extra" velocity.

AS I indicated the gains were minimal to substantial. Again, I'm not being coy, the things I did to the rifle AND ammo could cause major damage if not done properly AND with a large bite of experience AND advice from actual Lever gunsmiths.

Some of this information is applicable to the 50 Alaskan and most of what I did was in the form of experiments..."What can I do with this"??? and "how far can I go"???

As is, the 50 Alaskan is more than enough for anything that walks the earth with factory equal loading...it is definitely NOT a long range varminters and even with a pointy bullet the velo drops off precipitously...I just threw out the "pointy" bullet data for information on how you can heat up your shooter relatively quick and simply.

There are many posters who have experimented with bullet nose profiles on this forum, for specific uses and have come up with totally cool profiles somewhere between pointy and FN. I have several bullets designs with a flat noses and long curvy sides that I can drill a hole in and insert a pointy nose made of various metals/plastics. In my 50-90's and other 50 cals you can see a dramatic change in drop out past 300 yds by nothing more than stuffing a pointy nose into that FN using the same powder charge.

There will always be the argument between pointy bullets and "the other kind" as to which whacks harder. This is moot as far as I'm concerned as bullet PLACEMENT trumps nose profile I think... argumentatively.

There are an infinite amount of probabilities and an infinite number of ways to achieve them in this game...I don't limit myself to the finite.

It's YOUR toy to do with as YOU wish...I just come from an age where information had to be developed individually and sometimes difficultly...no internet to run to and experimentation was de rigueur.

LUCK

While either the 50Ak or 50/110 in a modern 86 or 71 conversion is a lot of gun, levergun stocks don't lend themselves to comfortable shooting of loads approaching 458 WM energy levels. Firing loads generating max velocities gets old really quickly and what's the point in owning one and loading it down?

I have conversions in 45/90 and 50/110 and to be honest the humble 45/70 in a modern 1886 rifle is very capable, a lot more versatile than any 50 cal and much cheaper to own and run. If you use bore riding cast bullet designs you can load to 2.8" in a 1886 and still function in the short factory throats of most 45/70 rifles. Loaded this way you can equal 45/90 ballistics with heavier pills. Northfork make a handy 450 gr CPS (it's a 2 diameter design) that would be my pick for deep pentration if hunting thick skinned game. If you leave the factory throat alone, you can use any of the regular 45/70 cast bullets designed for repeaters or any FN jacketed designs for superb accuracy and modest powder consumption.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/560100986?

One thing I meant to mention or add in and didn't is throating can reduce the initial pressure spike and allow an increase in powder to add velo, ala Weatherby, if you are going for the last modicum of velocity. This might help some in a levergun application...But like JTE adds the recoil of a light(er) levergun can be vicious at the upper levels of bullet weight and velocity...and unless T-RexRatz jump the fence 400 to 535 gr bullet weights and 1800 - 2100 fs is more than enough for N.A. game.

A 50 Alaskan with a heavy bullet at 2000fs can hit you with over twice the recoil of a 180 gr, 300 WM at normal velo...not something many hunters want to endure even for one or two rounds.

Isn't a lathe a beautiful tool to have to play with!!!!!

LUCK