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Has anybody used the 405gr offering in the Marlin for hunting bigger stuff than Hogs & Deer? I recently got 500 of the 405's for my Lott, but figured I'd try them in my Marlin. Just wonder how they'd do on our Bears & moose up here. Thanks Rod -------------------------------- "A hunter should not choose the cal, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong" Bob Hagel | ||
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moose close in and black bear would be a fine bullet....grizzly, no way as the bullet is too soft for that. Also, don't shoot it too fast either otherwise it will just flatten out and/or break up. I would say it is good up to maybe 2000fps. | |||
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You might consider using 350 grainers instead of the 405's as they are made for .45-70's. I think the 350 grain would not be as soft in your .450 Marlin. David | |||
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My experience is the same. | |||
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Keep the velocity on these to 1600 fps at the muzzle. They are designed for older 45/70s in the remington factory load at 1300 fps. An excellent, very accurate bullet, but do not exceed 1600 fps. Beyond that they come apart. I shot a kudu on the shoulder with one at 30 yds, 1850 fps in a Marlin Guide, bullet broke up on the shoulder, failed to enter vitals, and had a half day in running the animal down. Broke the shoulder of course, but did not enter vitals. Also shot a black bear with one in an 1886, at a little over 2000 fps, bullet broke completely up, fortunately it got the bear.  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Some other choices   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I don't mean to be argumentative, but something doesn't make sense on that Kudu shot. You say it broke the shoulder but didn't enter the vitals. Could it be that the shot was high on the shoulder, and therefore above the vitals? I use that bullet on Elk, launched at 1800fps, and it breaks bone and reaches vitals. It also tends to expand to about 0.9". The Remington 405gr JSP is a very good hunting bullet for the 450/45-70 leverguns in my opinion. I agree that is works best at the 1600-1800fps range. At close range, if you are comfortable with a 375H&H 270gr sp @2700fps, then you would be comfortable with a 405gr jsp @1800fps - the tested penetration and wound cavities are identical. Well, at least have an OK day  | |||
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Dia Of course it depends on impact distance, these bullets slow down a lot at 50 yds, on average 125 fps at 50. If yours impact at 100 yds, then you are 250 fps less, or a bit less than 1600 fps impact, which is good for this bullet. I was at 30 yds or so with the kudu, bullet broke up, not high, spot on. Did not make it past the shoulder! I have not only shot animals with this, but extensive test work also. I am just saying keep this bullet at 1600 fps muzzle or so. There are plenty of better bullets that can be run faster in 45/70 and give more reliable results at higher velocity. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks for all the replies folks. Micheal, awesome test results, what do you use for test medium?
The 405's were initially made for the 45/70 too...no? Rod -------------------------------- "A hunter should not choose the cal, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong" Bob Hagel | |||
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Rod I use a medium of wet print. See Terminal Bullet Performance thread on Big Bores. http://forums.accuratereloadin...841085331#6841085331 Yes, the 405 Remington is designed for 45/70 and loaded in it's 405 load at or around 1300 fps. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I was searching through that thread, (very long), and I didn't see any test data for the 405gr Rem. I did a lot of testing with this bullet before the advent of digital cameras and the rise of the Internet. I'm thinking about redoing some, and comparing to 30-30, 30-06, 44 mag, etc to give a perspective. It is a very good low-cost bullet, and folks who want to reload and learn to shoot would be well-served with it. There are better constructed bullets, (at least they make prettier mushrooms), but sometimes I think folks try to make the 45-70 something it is not - flat shooting. I really like the Marlin Guide Gun because (a) it is handy and packable all day and (b) the 45-70 has just enough "umph" to make it fun. It is not powerful, and I it would not be my first choice for a DG cartridge although I really like the rifle itself. Well, at least have an OK day | |||
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The 405 Rem bullet and the 400 Speer are good choices for the 45/70, or any .458 diameter rifle as long as you do not get the velocity too high. I have shot deer with the 300gr Sierra bullet, both the HP and SP versions, loaded about 1800 fs, and the 400 Speer at 1900 fps as well as the 350 Hornady RN at 1890. They all work good on deer, but on bigger stuff I would pick the Hornady 350RN. Another bullet for higher velocity loads in .458 cartridges would be the North Fork 350gr. I am going to load the ones I have in my 450 No2 one of these days, and shoot some pigs... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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In my opinion, too many folks believe that a bullet "fails" if it doesn't make a pretty mushroom or the jacket separates. In reality, a bullet "fails" when it doesn't give the desired result. The jacket on the 405gr Rem weighs 50gr, and in my experience on Elk (at ~1750fps) it parts company with the core after about a foot of penetration, which results in an expanded diameter of 0.8". The 355gr core continues on pretty much straight ahead for another foot. I have shot one through the spine of an Elk, and the jacket separated on the far side of the bone and the core continued on for another 18", curving down and coming to rest in the grass bag. Regardless, the result is one very dead Elk. My point here is that the jacket really doesn't matter - this isn't a 270W. All my shooting is well under 100yds and the muzzle velocity is right at 1800fps. Well, at least have an OK day | |||
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Yes, the 405 grainers were intended for the .45-70's. For the .450 Marlin the 350 grainers would be a better deal, as the 350 are not quite as "Soft" as the 405 grainers. David | |||
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Folks... all this said, what load data do you use for 405 Rems in a 450M? I want to begin using them | |||
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I use this load in a several 45/70's, so it shouls work in the 450 Marlin as well. With the 405gr bullet in the 450 Marlin I would load 53gr of IMR 3031. This should give you @1700 to 1800fps, depending you barrel length. This load gave 1840fps in my brothers Kodiak doble, and shoots near one hole groups at 100 yards in his Marlin Guide gun. 55gr of H 4895, or 48gr of Re7 would work as well. Start a couple of grains lower and work up of course. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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You might call Randy for advice - he's a great guy - his bullets don't break up. www.garrettcartridges.com | |||
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I use this combo: Rem 405/50.0 gr IMR 3031/Fed 215/Starline brass and a good roll crimp. I've killed a half dozen bison bulls over 1500#, alot of black bears, etc. with that and my 1895 LTD....I also loaded my Mauser .458WM with that Rem "cheapo JSP" at 1800fps and shot 2 test bullets into a dead cape buffalo I had killed prior to that with the 458WM using TSX @ 2200fps. The first shot was broadside into the shoulders from 50 yds and it broke both shoulders an was flattened out under the skin on the off side. The second was shot into the base of the tail from the same 50 yds and was found in the lungs in tact well mushroomed....either would've killed that cape buffalo. I've read so often on the DG threads here at AR that a .458 bullet @ under 2000fps (45-70 speed) can't possibly kill a cape buffalo...BULL SHIT! That bullet out of a 45-70 @ 1800-1900 fps may not be what the ilk whom want to fire "raking shots" from ass to brain prefer to use an in truth it isn't intended to be used for that but it will kill them. An if you need to take raking shots to begin with YOU screwed something up not the caliber gun you were shooting. i.e., the 7.62x39 has killed more animals in all the world than anyother caliber. | |||
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My experience last year in Namibia on Gemsbok with a Marlin 1895M (18.5" barrel} in 450 Marlin with Rem 405's supports Michael 458's "lab" testing; i.e. don't over drive them. I used a max load (Lee Table) of H4198 and took a couple of Gemsbok. Three broadside shots from less than 75yds through the "vital triangle". Two stopped under the off-side hide, and third was a bit high and hit the spine. All three had complete jacket separation, and the one that hit the spine was like a grenade. The two that where recovered flattened to the size of a quarter but you could probably pass a golf ball through the holes. This year I am taking the same Rem 405's and downloading a bit to a calculated 1700 fps muzzle velocity and also taking a few Cast Performance Hard Cast 405gr Wide Flat Points and if I get them in time, some Jae-Bok Young 425gr Pile Driver Jr's. I've also acquired a custom built Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70 that is going too. Based on Micheal458's test of the 330gr Barnes Banded solids, I got some. Have loaded them over 60gr of H4198 (calculated 2500fps+ at the muzzle) and the rifle is an absolute tack driver with them. Since these are in 458 WM territory the recoil is there too. I've fired 20 test rounds into the ranges clay backstop and haven't been able to dig one out yet. The plan for it is to try it on a Gemsbok or two from full frontal and see if they get complete end to end pass through. Those Barnes Banded Solids are designed for the 458 SOCOM and don't have a crimping grove at a length that will fit a Marlin. I use a Lee factory crimp die and if I get a chance will try to load a few for the Marlin and see if I can get enough of a crimp on them with it at the 2.54" total length to withstand the recoil in the tubular magazine. | |||
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Regarding bullet movement: In my experience, neck tension is more important than crimp - even with with might FCD. I should clarify that I'm referring to those bullets lacking a proper cannelure to crimp into, like the Rem 405gr jsp. Most cast bullets are (a) a bit wider and (b) have a distinct crimp groove, so they rarely have setback problems. But a lot of jacketed is .4575 diameter. Also, I've found Remington Nickel plated brass to be more "slippery" than regular brass. Well, at least have an OK day | |||
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