bigdoggy700's thread on the 510 Kodiak Express has forced me to pretty much rule out the big boomer. Heavily loaded .458-caliber lever action is my fall-back.
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Speer's FNSP(loaded round, and bullet on right) 400-grain and Remington's 405-grain FNSP (bullet on left) are moderately priced bullets intended for 45-70 cartridges. Loading ammunition to chronographed muzzle velocity of 1900 fps, which of them will penetrate elk more deeply, more reliably at 50 yards and closer?

The Remington, it has a harder alloy core than the Speer.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,152194.0.html

From the different tests and articals I have seen over the years, and from using the Soeer 400gr bullet on deer, I agree with jackfish, the Remington is the tougher bullet.

I have shot a lot of game with the Hornady 350gr RN, and I like it a lot.

The only bullet I shot in the 45-70 or 45-90 that had reasonably penetration was the HOrnady 350 gr. but I finally decided the only bullet for elk was a hard cast 400 or 450 gr. flat nose bullet. In fact I have never been at all impressed with the 45-70 ior 45-90 on elk. Nice deer rifles however.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
. . . In fact I have never been at all impressed with the 45-70 ior 45-90 on elk. Nice deer rifles however.

Interesting comment. Would I be consistent with your belief to write that you would not be impressed with any of the .475- and .50-caliber revolver rounds currently in production, such as 475 Linebaugh and 500 JRH?

I am definitely not being combative. I'm interested in your experience, whose conclusions clearly are at variance with consensus.

The one and only bull elk I've taken with a 45-70 fell to the Remington 405gr JSP launched at 1800fps. At a distance of 18yds. The bullet expanded to about 1", shed it's jacket, and killed that Elk faster than anything I've seen before.

The shot was straight on and the bullet penetrated about 2' - part of that was passing through the spine. It worked for me. I certainly have no qualms about knocking down Elk with a 45-70.

Anyone hunt with a .348 Winchester? It works very well for whitetails with 200 gr. I have some 250 gr loaded for elk in timber, but have never taken one so all this is speculation on my part.

quote:

Originally posted by no1fan:
Anyone hunt with a .348 Winchester? It works very well for whitetails with 200 gr. I have some 250 gr loaded for elk in timber, but have never taken one so all this is speculation on my part.

At sale now I have a Browning M71 348 Winchester with sufficient ammo, brass, bullets, and reloading dies to keep it shooting for decades. I have disposed of my last 45-70 -- that's in one piece. I have one being customized, but it looks like it will not be ready for Montana's gun elk season. Since the Browning has not yet sold, I'm going to be using it. Should be interesting.

I figured the Remington would not hold up to my 45-120 NE velocities. I shot one at 2550 fps in water filled pumpkins and it made it through 5 feet, and held together reasonably well. Really impressed the heck out of me.

Naphtali,
I base that on about 5 or 6 kills on elk with my 45-90 some years ago. It killed them but I wasn't pleased with the results..

I also also have some videos I took of elk shot with a Ruger no.1, using hot loads and Nosler bullets and they are not very impressive as all the elk lived way too long before expiring..and the hunters were told not to shoot them again so it could be a "clean one shot kill", you can hear me say in the background to shoot the poor bastard again or I'm going to..My popularity dwindled with that outfitter and I quit booking for him some time after that incident..I kept that film much to his insistence that I turn it over to him. If I were to use the 45-90 today I would use a GS Customs flat nose solid or the Northfork cup point.. That should be an improvement.

Your right, I am just not a punken roller fan, having used the .338 and 375 and the difference is outstanding by anyones standards. but thats just my personal take on the subject and a reply to your question to me.

My 12 year old grandson shot a Bison bull at about 125 yards twice with a 50 something or other that I borrowed and that bull went over 2 miles before expiring..both were double lung hits..It was in a near blizzard and tracking was really tough, having to sweep snow off the tracks to figue out which track showed a blood trail..I would have been very happy indeed had the bull gone down a little faster.

Only my opinnion, and I'm not trying to force my belief on others, I just put it out there to agree or not to agree..


dla,
You gave a good example of complete failure of penetration at two feet and a classic case of bullet failure, you got lucky and a piece of bullet hit the spine by your own admission..

I am wondering why would you even contemplate using that same load again..Without a doubt it is going to fail sooner or later and you will lose a fine animal or have one hell of a tracking job on your hands..Not trying to be confrotational, just stating a fact based solely on your post.

Ray is right. I personaly have taken quite a bit of game with the .45-70, and like it a lot. However I use only very heavy hard cast and always shoot the animal through the shoulders as to take out the mechanisim that makes them go forward. But there is no dramatic display of hydroshock that the high velocity rounds do. It does not even start out at the 2,000 needed to create hydroshock. I have had the 400 gr. Speer fail to penetrate thru a small blacktail on a broadside shot! Too soft. Again, I do like the .45s, but a behind the shoulder shot will let the animal run a long ways for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
dla,
You gave a good example of complete failure of penetration at two feet and a classic case of bullet failure, you got lucky and a piece of bullet hit the spine by your own admission..

I am wondering why would you even contemplate using that same load again..Without a doubt it is going to fail sooner or later and you will lose a fine animal or have one hell of a tracking job on your hands..Not trying to be confrotational, just stating a fact based solely on your post.

Wow! You are certainly confused.

A couple of comments:

(1) bullet penetration - 2' is 24". And my 24" included going through the spine. And the bullet was 1" in diameter. Not sure what planet you came from, but here on earth that is pretty good penetration and expansion.

(2) A 405gr bullet doesn't "fail" because it sheds it's 50gr jacket. And that 50gr piece of copper came off about 14" at the spine. Do you somehow think that the remaining 355gr is insignificant?

I hope I helped your confusion and I hope you eventually learn something about big, slow-moving, soft-lead bullets.

I have found that with the 475 Turnbull and the 400TSX that they are opening to .700-.900 caliber and I and the others shooting it is big game 48"'s of penatration. Scovill shot a hippo through the ear at 90 yrds and it worked great there. These are loads that are moving at 2150-2200 FPS. I would think that this would work real well at close range elk. If you need far more penatration than go with our 400 or 450 banded solid. Very effective on elephant according to Dave Scovill.

Naphtali

To your original question, or concern--Without doubt do not use either the Speer or the Remington bullet for this application.

In my early years of hunting I loved a 45/70 and pushed it beyond it's limits in some cases. I was running the Remington 405 at 1850 fps in Guide Guns and shot bear, warthogs, impala, kudu, and various other critters, when one day at 35 yds this bullet hit the shoulder of a kudu and broke up completely not penetrating to the vitals. This was not a trophy kudu, this was a smaller bait kudu and we spent nearly half a day wasted getting this one down, broken front left shoulder and all!!!! I never used that bullet again at that velocity, dropping the velocity to 1600 fps at the muzzle helps matters, but------.

It was neither too impressive on other animals either.

Shot a few other animals with 45/70 and in every case just a little disappointed with the results. Yes, the big cast bullets penetrated great but just did not blow things over with velocities running 1750 fps to 1950 fps with various bullets.

I moved on. I find these days that there seems to be a magic formula, either by increasing bullet diameter and or velocity. I am sure Doug is getting big results with his 470s, increased bullet diameter and velocity to 2000-2200 fps. I am getting big results too with my .500 diameter cartridges at 1900-2200 fps. My first outing a few years ago with one of my 50s was a complete surprise. I was running .500 diameter bullets from 1900 fps to 2200 fps on a testing mission. From my experiences with 45/70 my expectations were somewhat low. I was forever wrong about this--wildebeast, zebra, eland, giraffe, kudu, were dropping at the shot! Tremendous reactions were being obtained by an increase in bullet diameter, but even more important, I think, was that slight increase in velocity to 2000 fps or better. Of course using good bullets too has a lot to do with it, but even using good bullets in the 45/70 never produced results that I am getting, and I am sure Doug is getting too with the 470s.

If determined to stay with 45/70 then by all means use the 405 Woodleigh--I have had my best results with it and the various 420-430 gr Cast Gas Checks.

Doug if you are out there I understand that you are planning a trip down under with Paul Truccolo? I am headed his way next September for one of his cull buffalo hunts to do some more test work with some of my 50s.

Michael

Yes we are working on a trip to see paul and will have 4 hunters and 2 cameramen there ot film the hunts for the Nos;er's Magneun Hunt TV show on cable. Pursuit channell 608 and the Sportsman channel. Hope to be able to make about 3 shoes out of it. Shooting both the 475 and also the 470 in a marlin 1895. This is a slightly shortened cartridge but shoots the same bullets as the 475 but +- 300 FPS slower. So I think the 350gr TSX at 200 will work out really great and this is a rifle that is less expensive that the 1886 or 71. Keep you informed on hte hunt. Planning it for the end of July.

Being some what peckish this morning, we all know that a 400 to 450 grain hard cast bullet cannot penetrait anything larger then a jack rabbit, if it should come out of a lever action. If the same bullet, at the same velocity comes out of a bolt action or a single shot it's intirely adiquate for moose, elk, etc..
The lack of penetraition may be the failure of jacketed bullets, not the action or the caliber.

jim

Doug

Sounds great, and I think will be big fun too. Lot's of shooting is what I am counting on. There are two of us shooting, and my wife will be along. As stated we are planning on September next year. As long as we have no issues I am taking my 500 MDM--Bolt gun, 2.8 inch Ultra case Win M70, shoots 550s .500 diameter at 2250 fps or so. Then my bud is taking a 50 B&M--510s .500 diameter at 2100 fps--and I think I would like to take one of my 50 B&M Alaskans M71s along too. Have not fully decided just yet. At any rate I am hoping for some good test work, and lot's of shooting.

Michael

"Doug if you are out there I understand that you are planning a trip down under with Paul Truccolo? I am headed his way next September for one of his cull buffalo hunts to do some more test work with some of my 50s."

Guys,I would like the info on this outfitter also as I would love to do a Buff Cull hunt myself in 09'(if the market gives me a break!)...I would love to do testing with my 600OK with various bullets(700-1040s)! Thank You

The only elk I ever shot with my 45-70 was a large cow elk. I was shooting 440 gr hardcast flat points from Cast Performance at 2200 fps out of a newer production 1886.

The shot was under 100 yards, and she was quartering towards me. My aim point was the leading front shoulder, and at the shot she dropped like a stone. The bullet smashed the near shoulder, carried through the top of the heart, bringing pieces of shoulder bone with it, and the bullet continued out the far lung and rib cage, exiting the animal.

I have no idea how many inches of penetration that was, and frankly, it wouldn't have occurred to me at the time to measure it. The hanging quarters weighed over 350 lbs, so she was a good sized cow...

I normally shoot my 338 win mag, and have occasionally used my 375 h&h. I can't tell the difference between elk hit with either of those calibers, either one turns them off like a switch if you hit them right, so it's normally the 338.

One elk isn't much of a sample I know. I mostly shoot scoped guns now while hunting, my eyes aren't what they used to be and I'm too limited by open sights. Getting older sucks.

I would suggest you try the Speer 350 grn. bullet. It was developed with the .458 WM in mind, and will greatly out penetrate the 400 grn. offerings.

I have killed quite a bit of deer with the old 45/70. No elk. I shoot 300 grain hollow point winchester factory. But I fill the hollow point with glue. They expand too fast without it and I am shooting at 100 yards or less. When I hunt where the range will be longer I use a 270 with 150 grain bullets (Usually factory winchester power points). I tried some Leverolution 325 grain in my marlin, but they kicked the snot out of me. However at 100 yards they printed 5 inches higher than the winchester. So you do get something out of them - I guess. They are cheaper than the winchester.