I am looking to buy a Marlin in 44 magnum or 45-70. I want the straight grip design. I want to buy one in 98% condition or better. The rifle must have top notch wood. Does anyone know where there is one at??? The wood must be extra nice. Thanks, Tom.

How about a brand new 1895gs in 45-70? Sometimes there is one in the classifieds used for a good price.

quote:

Originally posted by HEAD0001:
I am looking to buy a Marlin in 44 magnum or 45-70. I want the straight grip design. I want to buy one in 98% condition or better. The rifle must have top notch wood. Does anyone know where there is one at??? The wood must be extra nice. Thanks, Tom.

Something to consider.
You can load a 45-70 down to 44 Mag levels but you can't load a 44 mag up to 45-70 levels.
You will need to actively search for you rifle. One persons exceptional wood is anothers fence post.
Jim

I'd hafta agree with Pete. As for the exceptional wood, you might hafta get that custom done.

I have 6 44 magnum's and 4 45-70's. My goal is to find a real looker to hunt with. It may be a bit arrogant, but what the heck. One of my favorite rifles to carry is a Kimber of Oregon Super America. It is truly a piece of art. I am looking for something similar in a levergun. Eithe cartridge would work well. I did find a 44-40 I really like, but I am not sure about the cartridge. I have tons of components for the 44 and 45-70, including bullets that I cast. I hate to go through the start up costs of a new cartridge(44-40), Tom.

Like asking about an orange or a tangerine....big difference here.
45-70 is the only answer if you want some versatility.

It's like asking 30-30 Vs 338-06

the two cartridges are similar in bore and both in lever rifles, but....

The 44Mag is a 100-150yard cartridge for deer
The 45-70 is a 200-250yard cartridge for anything you are likely to find in north america.

The 44mag in a carbine cannot really be defined as having "recoil", you know you fired it, but beyond that...

The 45-70? firing heavy loads is best described as a bone jarring experience.

I have a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 and lately I'm playing with 405grain soft lead (14:1 Pb/Sn) bullets, soft lead expands very reliably....

AD

You have 6 44mags and 4 45-70s...restock one of those with some custom wood!
There are plenty out there that have good wood for them.
If you have alot of money...send it to Turnbull for the works. That will give you the Looker you're looking for...and make alot of folks (me included) jealous!

quote:

Originally posted by HEAD0001:
I am looking to buy a Marlin in 44 magnum or 45-70. I want the straight grip design. I want to buy one in 98% condition or better. The rifle must have top notch wood. Does anyone know where there is one at??? The wood must be extra nice. Thanks, Tom.

My preference in a lever would be the SW460mag with options to fire 454casull(it equals a standard 45-70 load) & 45 long colt for practice.I have a TC Encore Receiver with a scoped 20" Bullberry Rifle Barrel in SW460mag that I can fire 454casull & 45 long colt out of.I wish someone would make a sw460mag Lever Action.

Be careful with "exceptional" wood. For example the Marlin guide gun buttstock, where it joins the receiver, has two very small "tits," one on each side. Mine had "exceptional" wood, and when it jammed and I could not seem to fix it, I sent it back. Turned out the "exceptional" wood made those "tits" very weak; one broke and jammed the action. They replaced the buttstock.

What I would look for is a good straight grain in the weakest point.

My favorite bullet for my 45-70 and for all North American game remains the 300 grain Nosler partition.

Allen
I'm surprised that you don't think Marlins in 44 mag kick. The 1894 in 44 mag seems to kick more than the 1895 does with factory loads. Too light and short to hang onto right.

I don't think the 44mag kicks for several reasons...

First is that ither than original brass aquisition my 45-70
has never been fed factory loads, and my handloads are a bit "warm" heavy loads with jacketed 300 and 400gr bullets.
Next that it has has a straight grip stock, so there is no
greater ability to control recoil.
It simply isn't that much heavier than my brother's 1894

You know you fired it, but I don't really see any difference at all between the 44mag and a 30-30 and I don't regard what a 30-30 does as "recoil"....

Recoil is as much perception as it is reality and that goes to NOT noticing recoil as much as it does noticing it.

the 45-70 is literally a rifle that can do you harm if you aren't attentive...

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
....the 45-70 is literally a rifle that can do you harm if you aren't attentive...

AD

SlimFast pad...no harm no foul....

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Allen
I'm surprised that you don't think Marlins in 44 mag kick. The 1894 in 44 mag seems to kick more than the 1895 does with factory loads. Too light and short to hang onto right.

Try a 540 grain cast at 1,500 fps from the .45-70, THEN tell me the .44 kicks at all. Hahahahahahahaha! Ahhhhh, crap. Now that was funny.

quote:

Something to consider.
You can load a 45-70 down to 44 Mag levels but you can't load a 44 mag up to 45-70 levels.
You will need to actively search for you rifle. One persons exceptional wood is anothers fence post.
Jim

Yup! And a 45-70 will kill anything on the face of the earth! 44 mag just pisses em off!

Have you considered the 444?

The 45/70 is a great, accurate cartridge able to handle bullets up to 500gr but....there are very few if any, light, soft bullets available in .458 if that's what you desire.
45/70 brass is the weak link and won't last if driven hard. (That's why they built the 450 Marlin) Near enough the same cartridge with better brass.

The 44 mag is an efficient cartridge with a huge range of projectiles but is limited in power and therefore a 125yd round at best. (My personal favourite as most of my shots are taken at well under this distance).

The 444 also benefits from the huge range of projectiles from soft expanding 165gr pistol bullets for low power short range work to 325gr pills that will drill holes through anything they hit and the brass will last at the higher pressures and velocities this round can be pushed to.
It's a sensible compromise between the 45/70 and the 44mag.

Cheers.
Boof.

quote:

Originally posted by Boofhead:
...there are very few if any, light, soft bullets available in .458 if that's what you desire.
45/70 brass is the weak link and won't last if driven hard. (That's why they built the 450 Marlin) Near enough the same cartridge with better brass.

I wonder where this stuff comes from. First, the 300 grain Remington JSP is light and soft and the Hornady and Sierra ain't much harder. Second, when loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns the brass makes no difference. Winchester 45-70 brass (the thinnest there is) has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure. In addition, 45-70 brass will last as long as 450 Marlin brass because where they both are likely to fail over time is where they are worked the most, at the case mouth/neck where they have similar thickness. 45-70 brass as the weak link is a fallacy. There are probably as many projectiles to choose from with the 45-70, you just have to be creative, like paper patching .451" pistol bullets, for example. There you can get plenty light and soft.

Must be different bullet availability in Australia than in PA. Hardly any good bullets for 444 but many for 45/70

Jackfish,

This 'stuff' comes from experience. I would hardly call a 300gr pill light when compared to what's available in .430.

Maybe you guys can get tougher brass than us here in OZ, but I've had 2 Marlins and a NEF in 45/70 and using the only brass we can get (Win & Rem) had the same results with all 3 guns, loose primers after 3 or 4 loads still well under max. And I'm talking 'Marlin max' not 'Ruger max'

Best bullets for the 44mag...180-240gr
Best bullets for the 45/70...300-405gr
Best bullets for the 444.... anywhere you like in the middle of the other two!

As for .451 bullets in something that should be shooting .458

Boof.

quote:

Originally posted by Boofhead:
45/70 brass is the weak link and won't last if driven hard. (That's why they built the 450 Marlin) Near enough the same cartridge with better brass.

FALSE.

The 450Marlin exsists because Marlin and Hornady tried, and failed to get SAAMI to approve a "+P" standard for the 45-70.

Thus the 450Marlin is a handloaded 45-70 for people who don't handload.

I'm still using the same brass I bought in 1986
And it's been used for book max (marlin max)
charges of IMR4198, H4198 and Reloader7, mostly with 300gr Hornady and sierra bullets.

the brass I use for 400gr Barnes is segregated and I haven't reloaded it all that often but even so I haven't seen loose primer pockets.

AD

AD

Allan,

As you probably know, H4198 is ADI 2207 made here in OZ. It is shipped to the States where it is repackaged, marketed and sold by Hodgdon as H4198 and is certainly one of the best powders for 300gr bullets in the 45/70.

ADI load data for a 300gr jacketed bullet and ADI 2207 powder is as follows.

Trapdoor Load - start...45gr/max...55gr
Ruger No 1 Load-start...59.5gr/max...63gr
Marlin Load-start...55gr/max...60gr

My accuracy load was a 300gr Hornady, and 49.2gr of 2207.
This worked well in all my 45/70's. 2 inch groups with open sights @100yds were common off a bench and no probs with the brass.
As soon as I tried to push the powder charge to 55gr (the Marlin starting load) the brass was wasted.
If anyone is managing to keep their primers in after 4 reloads of 55grains + of 2207/H4198 please let me know what brass or how much Loctite you're using.
To suggest 45/70 brass will handle a load of 60-63 grains is is a bit more than I can swallow.

Also, a lot of people out there seem to think 450M brass is nothing more than a rimless belted 45/70. Not true! Take a hacksaw and slice both down the middle and compare.
There is a significant difference in brass thickness where it counts for the higher pressures that Hornady and Marlin were pushing for.

Anyway, we're getting way off the track of the original post so and I'll say it again. If undecided between a 44mag or a 45/70. A 444 slots in nicely between the two.

Cheers.
Boof.

quote:

As for .451 bullets in something that should be shooting .458

I said paper patched pistol bullets in response to your claim that the 444 Marlin has a "huge range of projectiles from soft expanding 165gr pistol bullets for low power short range work..." while there is nothing comparable for the 45-70. That is false, because anyone using a little creativity can easily patch a 160 to 185 grain .451" bullet to .458" for low power short range work in the 45-70. Hence, the 45-70 achieves the low power short range work with light bullets objective and can easily out class the 444 in heavy bullets.

As for the 45-70 eating brass, I've been shooting a 55 grain H4198 load with 300 grain jacketed bullets for 15 years and have gotten 5 reloadings so far with Winchester brass. I have over 30 years of experience reloading and shooting the 45-70 including in Marlins, an H&R, a Ruger and a Siamese Mauser and I still am using brass I bought in 1980. 55 grains of H4198 with 300 grain bullets is a moderate load for the Marlin 1895 and certainly should not unduly expand primer pockets. I've shot 50,000 CUP loads in the Ruger and Siamese Mauser and the brass handled it just fine, easily and safely exceeding the 4 reloadings you say ruins 45-70 brass with 28,000 CUP loads. I am getting case splits at the case mouth way before any signs of loose primer pockets in my 45-70 brass and I can forestall those if I can recognize the appropriate time to anneal cases. So, your experience seems to be different than mine and others. However, I agree the 444 Marlin has some nice attributes and should be considered along with the 44 Rem Mag and 45-70. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Boofhead:
Allan,

As you probably know, H4198 is ADI 2207 made here in OZ. It is shipped to the States where it is repackaged, marketed and sold by Hodgdon as H4198 and is certainly one of the best powders for 300gr bullets in the 45/70.

ADI load data for a 300gr jacketed bullet and ADI 2207 powder is as follows.

Trapdoor Load - start...45gr/max...55gr
Ruger No 1 Load-start...59.5gr/max...63gr
Marlin Load-start...55gr/max...60gr

My accuracy load was a 300gr Hornady, and 49.2gr of 2207.
This worked well in all my 45/70's. 2 inch groups with open sights @100yds were common off a bench and no probs with the brass.
As soon as I tried to push the powder charge to 55gr (the Marlin starting load) the brass was wasted.
If anyone is managing to keep their primers in after 4 reloads of 55grains + of 2207/H4198 please let me know what brass or how much Loctite you're using.
To suggest 45/70 brass will handle a load of 60-63 grains is is a bit more than I can swallow.

Also, a lot of people out there seem to think 450M brass is nothing more than a rimless belted 45/70. Not true! Take a hacksaw and slice both down the middle and compare.
There is a significant difference in brass thickness where it counts for the higher pressures that Hornady and Marlin were pushing for.

Anyway, we're getting way off the track of the original post so and I'll say it again. If undecided between a 44mag or a 45/70. A 444 slots in nicely between the two.

Cheers.
Boof.

I don't know where your load data is actually comming from but published "Marlin Max" loads
here are as follows:
Hornady (#4) 300gr HP bullet
IMR4198 48.7gr (2100fps)
H4198 51.2gr (2000fps)
RL7 52.3gr (2000fps)

Hornady 350gr RN bullet
IMR4198 45.3 (1900fps)
H4198 51.2 (1900fps)
RL7 52.3 (1900fps)

My personal "pet load" of 54.0grains of RL7
was is actually 0.7gr under "book Max" in the Hornady #3 manual (and I only trust that load because I still have seven 1lb cans of RL7 of the same lot (lot 020 if anyone is curious) that I bought in the late 80's early 90's
(My last 2lb of lot 018 are going into 223 55gr ball loads)

I worry that newer lots might be faster...


I go by the bullet manufacturer's loads, particularly when like hornady they use the same rifle for their load testing, as hornady
did for their 3rd edition handbook.

The fact that Hornady's loads are also tested to 40Kcup is also comforting.

From the looks of things your starting loads are 3.8grains above what hornady says to use as MAX loads even in their less conservative 3rd edition manual and your max load more than 11grains above that published max, which could explain your problem....

an 11grain overcharge more than doubles the intended pressure and while I wouldn't lose any sleep over firing off a 45Kcup load in a Marlin
I'd beat you to death with the rifle if you suggested that I load and fire a 75kcup load.

I'd certainly never touch one off in MY Marlin rifle.

I'm not sure the rifle would actually blow but
I doubt it would be in any condition to do it a second time.

the "Trapdoor" loads you show are WAY over.
Starting in a trapdoor should be ~32grains and max 42.something.

Your starting load would turn a trapdoor into a grenade.

Basically, your loading data is wacked.
Your max load for a marlin is something I'd only touch off in a ruger #1 if I had the rifle clamped in a vise, a long string and a sealand container full of sandbags to hide behind.

Your "Accuracy load" seems just a bit "soft"
as I'de be perfectly comfortable pushing to 52.0grains.. beyond that? Here there be dragons...

AD

Allan,

I trust Hodgdon.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

This is probably Boofhead's source. http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/

You can see that ADI2207 is equivalent to H4198, as Boofhead has already pointed out.

While Hornady claims their Marlin 1895 45-70 loads do not exceed 40,000 CUP they also don't say whether they actually come close to it either. Which according to Hodgdon's pressure tested and documented data they do not for IMR and Hodgdon powders.

So I think you are overreacting due to a lack of information. Peruse the links I've provided and see if you might want to reconsider some of your statements.

In addition, I think 45,000 CUP in the Marlin 1895 45-70 is pushing it as it is well recognized in the literature that the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP.

Those Hodgdon loads are hot but safe. 56 grains H4198 is a thumper, and accurate in my 1895gs.

It's been a while since I've seen my Hodgdon manual so I can't look at it.

And you mistake my meaning wrong about 45Kcup loads.
I said "I'd do it without losing sleep", I didn't say I'd do it often or make a steady habit of it.I don't think anyone is going to blow up an 1895 with a 45Kcup load.

It'd be "nice" to get a 400gr barnes moving along at 2000fps even, but I'm not sure it's worth it in terms
of wear and tear on the rifle.

In this case if the primer pockets are expanding I think too much powder, not that the brass is "worthless & weak"

particularly when reaching published velocities with other propellants or with H4198 and the smaller charges I listed above.... and NOT puffing primer pockets.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
It's been a while since I've seen my Hodgdon manual so I can't look at it.

Its online just click on this link http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

quote:

And you mistake my meaning wrong about 45Kcup loads.
I said "I'd do it without losing sleep", I didn't say I'd do it often or make a steady habit of it.I don't think anyone is going to blow up an 1895 with a 45Kcup load.

Still no reason to even do it in the first place.

quote:

It'd be "nice" to get a 400gr barnes moving along at 2000fps even, but I'm not sure it's worth it in terms of wear and tear on the rifle.

Well, it won't likely happen in a 22" Marlin 1895 45-70. A maximum load of 47.5 grains of Reloder 10x under a 400 grain Barnes Original in Winchester brass and a CCI 200 primer yields 1989 fps from a 22" barreled Marlin 1895 45-70. But one would achieve 2000 fps with safe loads in an 1895XLR or 1895CB.

There should not be undue primer pocket expansion in 45-70 cases with 300 grain bullets and 55 grains of H4198 which is approximately a 28,000 CUP load.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
There are probably as many projectiles to choose from with the 45-70, you just have to be creative, like paper patching .451" pistol bullets, for example.

Please tell me more, much more, about paper patching 45 pistol bullets to make them work in the 45/70. It would be nice to create some small game loads without having to special order collar buttons.

While usually used with cast bullets, paper patching can be used with jacketed bullets if the bore diameter is near the jacketed bullet diameter. The 45-70 generally has a bore diameter of .451" and a groove diameter of .458". A two layer wrap with 0.003" paper is just about right. Velocities must be kept low as there are not lube grooves on a jacketed bullet to hold the paper well although a cannelure helps, and jacketed bullets are not cupped at the base so it makes dealing with the tag end somewhat problematic but it can just be cut off after drying. One should read up on paper patching and slug the bore to get actual bore and groove measurements.

Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets - A Beginner's Guide by Randolph S. Wright

The Paper Jacket by Paul A. Matthews

I guess I'm deprived, I own at least 6 or 8 Marlins, including at least 4 45-70s and have looked at thousands of them over the years and I've NEVER seen a standard factory Marlin with what I'd call exceptional wood, certainly some have better wood than others, but EXCEPTIONAL, not even close.

On the reloading question, assuming you're not shooting African game, bears, or water buffalo, I see ABSOLUTELY no reason to approach maximum loads in a .45-70 Marlin. All they do is kick the crap out of you, wear on your gun and don't kill most game any deader than the same load at 1800 fps or so. Some people like to get the snot kicked out of them, maybe it makes them feel more manly, I don't and it doesn't. To each his own.

For hunting BIG game I would prefer a 45-70.

For a utility rifle I would prefer, and use a 44 Mag.

I have had 3 different 44 Mag rifles. My current one is a Winchester trapper with a 16 inch barrel.

I like it a lot, and take it on most every trip when I am traveling in my vehicle.

As I also always carry a 4" S&W 44 Mag when in the "woods" I always have a lot of 44 Mag ammo around.

The 44 Winchester is accurate, reliable, and with the right ammo, powerful enough for any NA game inside 50 yards, and very handy.

quote:

Originally posted by nugman:
pm sent.

Found a Marlin 1894 44 mag with exceptional wood and 98% condition. Contact is in pm.

It's not mine, nor do I know the history of the rifle.

Thank You very much. I finally got the pictures today from them. And you are right, the wood is very good. There is one small rub mark on the action. The price was very good, IMO. So I bought it. Thanks again, Tom.

If I may; the 444 Marlin is NOT a 'tweener. The 1:38" twist condemns it to using light weight bullets (for caliber). Rebarreling one with a 1:20" twist turns it into real competition for the 45-70, IF you reload. Factory ammunition (IMHO) is about worthless.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...
Posting for the Dems

Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. is sweet in dense woods for deer. According to the manuals the rifle gains about 300 fps over the same load in a handgun -- depending on barrel length in both.

240 gr bullet, 24 gr. H110 it's running about 1886 fps out of a rifle.

I just got a second Marlin in 44 mag -- should have never sold the first one. Nice lever carbine.

Back awhile ago when I lived in Homer, AK, 20 years or so back, I used to custom load 300 gr linotype bullets for a guy who shot a S&W 29 with a 6.5" barrel. He killed a 10'-2" brown bear with the loads and as near as he could tell he got about 4 feet of penetration on that particular bear. One shot...kinda like a bang flop, but big bears just sorta fall, not flop.

Ever since that time I have always thought that a Marlin 44 mag would be a fine hunting gun for just about anything short of Brown Bear and under 100 yds or so. 9 or 10 rounds of .44 Mag in a little carbine makes a pretty mean gun in my book. Sorta like Elmer Keith's gun on steroids!!!

quote:

Originally posted by HEAD0001:
I am looking to buy a Marlin in 44 magnum or 45-70. I want the straight grip design. I want to buy one in 98% condition or better. The rifle must have top notch wood. Does anyone know where there is one at??? The wood must be extra nice.

Marlins historically don't have very fancy wood, but from what you are asking for, I would suggest a 1895GS. You should be able to find a used one on GB for around $500.

If you are looking for power then I'd choose the .450 Marlin. REMEMBER it will have considerable recoil when compaired with the .45-70 or .44 Magnum.

I have both, and the 44 holds more rounds and the 45/70 is more potent. The leverevolution stuff shoots flatter, and kicks a lot more in the 45/70, but it turns it into a different rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:

quote:

Originally posted by HEAD0001:
I am looking to buy a Marlin in 44 magnum or 45-70. I want the straight grip design. I want to buy one in 98% condition or better. The rifle must have top notch wood. Does anyone know where there is one at??? The wood must be extra nice. Thanks, Tom.

My preference in a lever would be the SW460mag with options to fire 454casull(it equals a standard 45-70 load) & 45 long colt for practice.I have a TC Encore Receiver with a scoped 20" Bullberry Rifle Barrel in SW460mag that I can fire 454casull & 45 long colt out of.I wish someone would make a sw460mag Lever Action.

My thoughts exactly.

I have several 44 magnum, and 45-70 rifles. i was just wanting to buy a new one with good wood. And I found it. It is in the picture above. And I got it for a good price, so I was very happy. I have already put the Wild West trigger on the rifle. And am getting ready to mount the new Skinner Ladder Sight. It should be a dandy.

Now I am looking for a Low Wall in 44 magnum. I have seen a few, and most of them have also had pretty good wood, but their price was too high. If anybody sees a good looking low wall in 44 magnum please let me know. Thanks, Tom.