I want to pick the brains of you big bore lever guys.
I have a couple of Winchester 71's, I like the 348. I just picked up a Browning carbine over on Gunbroker, was thinking of a big bore conversion.
What do you think is the most sensible conversion, given the 20 inch barrel.
My goal would be to make a handy lever action rifle, that could be used for dangerous game, not including elephant.
Perhaps "sensible" isn't quite the right word, but you know what I mean. A conversion that isn't too tough to do, decent performance with a shorter barrel, still fun to shoot.

375JDJ.

I like the 375 JDJ but it is light on powder capacity and the 71 will take more pressure. Should have got a 95. Let me think about it. Your 348 bolt face is big; way bigger than a 444 Marlin, which is what a 375 jdj has.
There are bigger wildcats based on the 348 case.

I know, but I just like the feel and qualities of the 71.
I believe the 50-110 has the same bolt face. I see that Turnbulls does a 475 Turnbull conversion. I don't know how much I would be losing with the carbine length barrel with these chamberings.
I'm not sure how much I would be gaining by going up to 375, unless I could get god velocities with a 300 grain bullet.
I figure I'm not the first guy looking to do something like this, just looking for peoples thoughts.

Yes the 50-110 has the same rim diameter. 475 would be good. You would not lose much with a 20 inch barrel.
there is a 348/375 wildcat that would be good.. The old Alaskan wildcats used to be popluar; check out them.
I like the 71 too; it is just an 86.

If the 71 is "just" and 86, and the 86 works well with .45-70 and .45-90 (you can do ele with that) will one of those work?

The 71 uses a 348 or 50-110 case. The thing to be aware is the cartridge oal. That should be 2.650" or longer to eliminate the cartridge flip due to the cartridge moving forward in the carrier, so if muzzle down and work the bolt the cart flips out of the action. Unless extra work to the cartridge stops etc. With the 475 Turnbull is 2.750 with the Barnes TSX bullet. Any modifications should be aware of this for ease of modifications. Any of the 348-375-416-458-475-50 cal will work. Have done many and understand issues about cases, design and work needed to make fit. 71 is a very strong action.

You have the choice of the 450 Alaskan, 50 Alaskan, 50-110 or 510 Kodiak Express.
The 450 Alaskan gets you about 458 Win Mag, performance. The 50 cals. about the same velocity with a bigger diameter bullet. Then you also have the .475 Turnbull, right in there.
Pick your bullet diameter .458, .475 or .510 and move from there. For me.... it would be a .450 Alaskan as I already have a .50 Alaskan and a 50-110.

I have both a 450 Alaskan and a 475 Turnbull--both shoot the same weight bullet at the same velocity very well. Which one I grab depends on my mood, but the one Doug built for me is oh-so-much prettier!

Dave Manson

I bought a Browning 71 carbine and sent it to Turnbull a couple of years ago for conversion. He installed a 22" octagon barrel and converted the gun to 50-110. Added some checkering too. What a great gun. Not a lot of load data out there for the big 50 but it can be found. Fun to shoot. Gun is just beautiful. Search the site for pics of the gun.

I bought one that had been converted by Turnbull to 50 Alaskan. It was a wonderful gun and I regret getting rid of it. Doug does wonderful work and would highly recommend him. I don't know much about his proprietary rounds but I have to imagine anything he turns out is gonna get it done.

not meaning to hi-jack this thread but doug in reguard to the browning 71 conversion I have one myself with 20 inch barrel.what is the optimate barrel length for your 475 conversion.also isn't the 1886 action slightly longer than the model 71 action

Not hijacked at all, I have been thinking about the same question. To add yet more confusion, I have been reading about the Big Horn Armory Model 89. Looks interesting.

-- "Not hijacked at all, I have been thinking about the same question. To add yet more confusion, I have been reading about the Big Horn Armory Model 89. Looks interesting."

Marty - since you are considering other solutions, you could sell or trade the extra M71 and replace it with a Miroku made M1895 in .405 WCF or a M1886 in .45-90. Either of these an do what you wish AND take ele with the right bullets. Decisions, decisions!

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
-- "Not hijacked at all, I have been thinking about the same question. To add yet more confusion, I have been reading about the Big Horn Armory Model 89. Looks interesting."

Marty - since you are considering other solutions, you could sell or trade the extra M71 and replace it with a Miroku made M1895 in .405 WCF or a M1886 in .45-90. Either of these an do what you wish AND take ele with the right bullets. Decisions, decisions!

I will be loading my 450 Alaskan soon for a buff hunt,which bullet would you recommend? What worked in the 45/90?
I am taking my Turnbull as well,loading that with 450 gr Barnes solids.

If I wanted a Mod 71, or a 1886 in ANY calibre other than 348 WCF or 45/70, it would be a 475 Turnbull, no doubt.

I shot Dougs rifle a bunch one day and I really liked it.
Recoil was actually very plesant, and the rifle handled like a dream.

I can also recommend an 1895 in 405 WCF. Mine is a Take Down, it has become my favorite Lever rifle.
It was very accurate at long ranges as well.

I find the velocity between 20 inch and a 26 inch barrel is 75 100 ft./s different.

The difference between model 1886 and the 71 the locking bolt system. The 86 locking bolts for vertical where the 71 locking bolts are angled this is due to the design of the cartridge. At about 45 to 47,000 PSI and bottlenecked case expands completely in the chamber pushing against the boltface. If the vertical locking lugs on a 1886 are not set/fit to stop forward movement of the bolt as they are lowered than they push the bolt forward .0005-.002" and the case can not be pushed forward do to the complete expansion in the chamber. The need to fit the lugs to bolt on bottle neck cartridges in a 1886 but not in a 71. Thus "tight lever syndrom". That was why they made the changes to the 71 is the improved angle of the lugs to the bolt to eliminate this problem, because with proof loads at 1.2-1.4 times standard pressure created the issue with the development of the .348 cartridge and nickel steel barrels. IMHO based on facts learned with the development of the .475 Turnbull

thanks doug for that good explantion.john

Bill73,
One of my friends was going to Africa for several days of hunting with PAC hunters and he wanted to field test a variety of bullets in his .45-70 and my .45-90(same bullets, higher velocity) on DG. He recruited two of us on the loading research and testing and we had professional advice from two people in the ammo business. The hunt was very successful and informative and the report lengthy.

So, to address your question, the best performing bullets on ele were the
Northfork FPS and Belt Mountain Punch solids.
These same bullets performed well on Cape buffalo as did the bullets from Alaska Bullet Works, the Kodiak 450 grain FMJ and the 405 grain heavy jacketed soft point.

The Punch bullet ammo is now available from Grizzly Cartridge:
http://www.grizzlycartridge.co...=&count=10&offset=10

Here is a link to an article about taking ele with a .450 Alaskan:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/elephant.htm

Enjoy!

cr

Good report on your elephant hunt.

My first elephant hunt was in the Omay. At times I thought I was hunting Mountain Goats...

I quickly understood why Hannibal used them to cross the Mountains.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Bill73,
One of my friends was going to Africa for several days of hunting with PAC hunters and he wanted to field test a variety of bullets in his .45-70 and my .45-90(same bullets, higher velocity) on DG. He recruited two of us on the loading research and testing and we had professional advice from two people in the ammo business. The hunt was very successful and informative and the report lengthy.

So, to address your question, the best performing bullets on ele were the
Northfork FPS and Belt Mountain Punch solids.
These same bullets performed well on Cape buffalo as did the bullets from Alaska Bullet Works, the Kodiak 450 grain FMJ and the 405 grain heavy jacketed soft point.

The Punch bullet ammo is now available from Grizzly Cartridge:
http://www.grizzlycartridge.co...=&count=10&offset=10

Here is a link to an article about taking ele with a .450 Alaskan:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/elephant.htm

Enjoy!

Thanks for the help,what weight were the NF's FPS?

The NF FPS were 450 grains and the Punch bullets were 405 grains.

.416 Alaska - have actually fired one and nearly converted my M71 to take this cartridge.

At sensible pressures drove a 410grn Woodleigh at 2200fps which is more than enough for elephant and buffalo.

A somewhat more powerful catridge than the .416 Barnes listed in Cartridges of the World. Money, a wife (to be) and import permits destroyed my plan, but if you like lever actions for African game this is the round to pick.

.450 Alaskan drives a 480grn bullet at about 2100 - the minimum I would accept for elephant, but more than enough for buff.

I had a 50 Alaskan built on a marlin - It was a thumper and adequate for anything on earth.

Wish I had it back!

quote:

.416 Alaska - have actually fired one and nearly converted my M71 to take this cartridge. At sensible pressures drove a 410grn Woodleigh at 2200fps which is more than enough for elephant and buffalo.A somewhat more powerful catridge than the .416 Barnes listed in Cartridges of the World. Money, a wife (to be) and import permits destroyed my plan, but if you like lever actions for African game this is the round to pick..450 Alaskan drives a 480grn bullet at about 2100 - the minimum I would accept for elephant, but more than enough for buff.

How do you know the pressures? My guess is they are about 48,000PSI from the Ohler 43 tests I have run.
Just wondering is all.

Doug,

Is 48,000psi too much pressure for working loads in the Miroku 71 & 86? About 15 years ago, Paco Kelley wrote in his article "From Elves to Elephants", that 50,000psi is a usable and stable pressure in the Miroku 1886 rifles in 45-70. I doubt Paco, or anyone else on earth, has neerly as much knowledge and experience as you regarding the actual limits of these guns, so can we pin you down on this subject? Thanks,
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
.416 Alaska - have actually fired one and nearly converted my M71 to take this cartridge.

At sensible pressures drove a 410grn Woodleigh at 2200fps which is more than enough for elephant and buffalo.

A somewhat more powerful catridge than the .416 Barnes listed in Cartridges of the World. Money, a wife (to be) and import permits destroyed my plan, but if you like lever actions for African game this is the round to pick.

.450 Alaskan drives a 480grn bullet at about 2100 - the minimum I would accept for elephant, but more than enough for buff.

Ganyana,
I am curious,a 480 gr bullet at 2100 fps? which version of the 450 were you working with?what was the case capacity?

Doug

No, No idea of pressures but the rounds extracted easily on a VERY hot day with no sighs of even moderate pressure on the primers (fully appreciate that a hard primer in a chamber with proper headspace will not show 'presure until 62,000PSI.) compared to the .450 Alaska which I did have pressure tested by Somchem the .416 extracted flawlessly and with much less signs of pressure.

the loads in the .450 Alaska that I sent to South Africa drove a 500grn Woodleigh at 2170fps for a pressure of 51,000PSI. There was a slight stickyness when you cycled the action - maybe a comment on who did the conversion??? I am no leaver action man, and got into leaver actions after I was hit in the right shoulder and had to shoot entirely left handed for more than a year. -

Bill73. The rifle came from Alaska, was a conversion of a winchester 71 and used .348 brass blown out. I had been impressed with the .416 I had seen a couple of years earlier- stamped .416 Alaska on the barrel and also used .348 cases, but blown out less and necked up.

Both rifles fed easily, but the 416 cycled as fast as I could manage with my own .348 and I liked the performance better.

The reality of ammo etc in Zimbabwe meant that although I bought a couple of leaver actions and loaded for them, I ended up shooting everything with my issue automatic 7,62 F.N and learning to use my beloved 9,3 left handed (helped that dad was a lefty and always used a mauser or Lee and was able to coach me until I thought I was safe on dangerous game)...still like the 71 though

I think you will find that the pressure of the 71 is more limited by the case. Working loads in a 416 variation I had case separation after two rounds fired on a case, it measured 63,000 PSI also the case was sticky in the chamber. The reason why they changed the locking bolts on 71 from the 86 is due to the case expanding in the chamber pushing against the bolt. I would say yes it is probably safe and 50,000 do I recommended no. Especially in a gun used for dangerous game as there is no camming effect by the bolt to pull the case out of the chamber if it is sticky. This will create an unsafe gun at the time of need. Recommend keeping in the mid 40s on a model 71 or modern 1886 you don't need the extra power even for elephants, use Quality Bullets and they will perform as needed and do what is needed don't rely and Magnum affect.
Tony Makris has proven this with the 475 Turnbull with a 400 grain Flatnose solid bullrts on elephants both frontal's and side shots. They are all going at about 2050 ft./s not extremely fast but at a manageable low recoil and deadly on elephants

A controlled well-placed slow bullet beats an over recoiled uncontrollable bullet every day. Especially on a follow up shot.

Stay off the Weatherby syndrome. You will have more fun, safer, easier on the shooter, more accurate, no broken stocks.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Turnbull:
I think you will find that the pressure of the 71 is more limited by the case. Working loads in a 416 variation I had case separation after two rounds fired on a case, it measured 63,000 PSI also the case was sticky in the chamber. The reason why they changed the locking bolts on 71 from the 86 is due to the case expanding in the chamber pushing against the bolt. I would say yes it is probably safe and 50,000 do I recommended no. Especially in a gun used for dangerous game as there is no camming effect by the bolt to pull the case out of the chamber if it is sticky. This will create an unsafe gun at the time of need. Recommend keeping in the mid 40s on a model 71 or modern 1886 you don't need the extra power even for elephants, use Quality Bullets and they will perform as needed and do what is needed don't rely and Magnum affect.
Tony Makris has proven this with the 475 Turnbull with a 400 grain Flatnose solid bullrts on elephants both frontal's and side shots. They are all going at about 2050 ft./s not extremely fast but at a manageable low recoil and deadly on elephants

A controlled well-placed slow bullet beats an over recoiled uncontrollable bullet every day. Especially on a follow up shot.

Stay off the Weatherby syndrome. You will have more fun, safer, easier on the shooter, more accurate, no broken stocks.

I really didn't think you would approach that question with a ten foot pole! Thank you for giving us your well informed opinion. There are lots of speculators on this subject, but you are the only one I can think of that has actually been there. I tried out a 40k psi 400grain 45-70 load in a Miroku extra-light 86. Maybe I'm just a woos, but I'll stick to my mid-range loads!

Colloradomatt

Your right!!!! The best thing is to stay low 40,000s Safe easy and on gun.
No need to "test" your gun every time you touch it off. Proof loads are high 40,000s

To shoot in proof load area is asking for trouble and dangerous. How many people out there are doing that with a bolt gun every day and say my loads are "safe".

The only way you know what the pressure is is to shoot it in a pressure gun. That is the only way period!!
The loads in the 71 was more by accident then, I put a strain gauge on and said HOLY SHXT!! Broke the stock in two shots! Not fun almost broke my fixture that holds my guns too.

There is safe. There is proofs then there is stupidity.

Hi Doug

The . version I tried was definately lower pressure than the version I tried and which I had tested at 51k PSI

I like the .416..you can shoot 300grn bullets at moderate velocity and very low pressure, and at reasonable velocity for use on cats...I want minimum of 2300fps if a client wants to use whatever rifle on cats.

Thanks for all the input, this has turned into a very interesting thread.
After consideration and phone calls to Turnbull and SSK, I have decided to send it to Doug for conversion to 475. I was told that the existing Browning 20" barrel can be rebored, and I may have it done that way. The SSK option was going to be far more expensive, and I don't know that I would gain anything. I've seen Doug's work.
I also ordered the Big Horn 89 carbine, beating a substantial price increase this month. I figure I can play with it and get my money back out of it if I decide to sell.

Good choice. Not my personal choice in cartridge, but I like Dougs work and have never seen one of his rifles jam...which is more than I can say for many a marlin or other conversions of the 86/71 that various people have bought out over the years.

I always specialised in Walk and stalk lions and a fast handling rifle in a real nececcity.

When I lived in Juneau, I came across a Browning M71 carbine, and it handles so quickly, I had to have it.
It was difficult to get bullets for, so I rebarrelled to .375/348 Improved. My original plan was to use a .416/348 but when I looked in the price list to order the reamer, it was $40 more than the .375, so I bought it, instead.
I've been able to get over 2200fps with a 300gr Hornady round-nose from a double handful of Rx#15, IMR 4350, or WW 760 so I'm not a bit afraid to walk ANYWHERE with it in my hands.
Have fun,
Gene

I have a Browning 71 converted to 416/348 improved and the 450 AK on an original. Like Doug Turnbull says, run some good bullet at a little over 2K and be happy. My old friend Kent Lomont shot many rounds in his 450 AK, 500 grain slugs at 458 win velocities were tested. No thanks, how about a Lyman 462560 (550 grains) loafing along just hammering a brown bear with one shot. Took both shoulders and was heard rattling away.
The best lever guns are handy rifles that are easy to hunt with.

I have a model 71 for sale in the classified, Now you guys have put a switch under my tail for a big bore lever gun...

I am thinking if it doesn't sell pretty quick, then I may have Doug put me a heavy barreled 40 caliber or perhaps a 475 together????..Recoil in that lever gun is a concern as my right hand hasn't healed up altogether from a roping incident and a recoil hit on that middle finger brings me to my knees and in a lever gun it may be worse than a bolt gun! thus my idea of a heavy barrel 40 caliber to cut down on recoil. This gun was neatly converted to a Talley peep sight from the old bolt peep, and it has a old peep sight with windage and elevation that comes with it, that would be perfect for a fast handling big bore for buffalo... I seem to get by recoil with a .338 and the 375 is borderline on the hand, at least for now...Anyway thats an option and you got me thinking and maybe a temporary muzzle brake.

Well, since I was getting ready for an elephant hunt earlier this year, everything went on a back burner. While I dithered, a nice 1886 (new, with the tang safety) converted to 50-110 by Turnbull Restorations came up on Gunbroker. The price was reasonable, so that is my new big bore lever gun. Now to start playing...

How about a .500 B&M Alaskan. Uses .500 diameter bullets so you have a wide range of bullets to choose from.