I recently purchased one of the new M1895
Winchester rifles in .405 Winchester. Looking at the ammo available from Superior in this caliber, I note they offer Woodleigh soft and solid loads. I currently load the 400 gr Woodleigh soft (.411) and solid (.410) in my 450/400 double, so I have plenty of these bullets on hand. However, all of the load data I can find on line is for 300 gr bullets. Do any of you .405 Winchester fans out there have any experience loading 400 gr bullets in this caliber for the 1895? If so, I would appreciate any load recommendations you may have.

My experience is that you can load the 400 grain Woodies in a standard chamber, but in order to crimp them on the cannelure, you must ream the 1895 .405 chamber out a bit so that the bullet can be seated out far enough to expose the cannelure. Just for fun, you can make a dummy round crimped at the cannelure and try dropping it into the chamber - it will stop before the rim seats.
PS there is some load date available on the internet for 400 grain bullets in 1895 .405, but you should be very carefully if loading these in the factory chamber; even with the extended chamber, my pressures were up around 48,000 psi. I would not try to reach 2100 fps with jacketed or solid 400 grain Woodies in a factory chamber.
My gunsmith used that dummy round as a guide and reamed the chamber to 20-25 thousandths longer than that needed to allow the dummy to load properly; cost me only $75 and it has worked well.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2701040671

An added advantage of this approach is that you can reach 450-400 velocity with pressures less that 50K psi with no adverse effect on the accuracy or velocity of 210 or 300 grain bullets.

If you do not want to ream your chamber there a few other options.

One would be to use the North Fork 360 gr bullets.

Another would be to see how deep into the case you had to seat the 400gr Woodleigh's, to have them chamber, and then cut the case enough to crimp the bullet.

This would reduce you powder capacity some.

One thing to consider is that the ballistics listed for the 450/400 3" Jeffery with 60 gr of Cordite was taken in 28" barrels.

Many jeffery doubles had only 24" barrels.

Also many of the 400 Jefferies were regulated for the tropical load, 55 grain of Cordite, which in a 24" barrel, especially a worn one probably did not get much over 1925 or 1950fps, with 400 gr bullets.

In all the old African hunting books I have read, I have never heard any negative comments on the 450/400 having a lack of power or lack of penetration.

Teddy R. killed lion, cape buff and rhino, with his 405 using the weak 300 gr factory bullets back in the day.

Complete agreement on the NF bullets. I load all three styles of 300 grainers in my .405 and
they have shot through most everything with the exception of a CPS that was recovered under the off side skin of a water buffalo; BTW that critter was dead before it hit the ground so hard the head bounced.

Thanks for all the helpful inputs guys. What really intrigues me is that Superior Ammo provides loaded rounds for the .405 Winchester with Woodleigh 400 gr softs and solids - I called them and they assured me the pressures and lengths were fine for a modern 1895. I ordered a couple of boxes of the solids to see how they shoot - I am also intersted to see if they trimmed back the brass to crimp them on the cannelure. A friend of mine in Houston told me these loads are the most accurate rounds in his 1895.
I have never used North Fork bullets either, so that is an area to explore. I use primarily Barnes X and Woodleigh bullets.
As for the 450/400, I completely agree with comments on the effectiveness of that round. I have taken a cape buffalo and a tuskless elephant with my Searcy 450/400 double, and I did not feel the least bit undergunned.

I see no reason to do it; 400 grainers in a 405 would travel pretty slow and recoil would be high in a 95. I love the 450-400, btw. No need for them to trim 405 brass back as I am sure a 400 grain bullet will be sitting firmly on top of a case full of slow powder.

You are not worried about the bullet being pushed back in the case as much as you worry about it slipping forward under recoil, and jamming up in the magazine.

IMHO I would not be afraid to shoot a Cape buff with a 300gr North Fork soft or maybe a 300gr Barnes X bullet, with the NF 300 gr solids for follow up.

Knowing what a 310gr Garrett 44 Mag cast bullet, out of a 4" 44 Mag, or a 420 gr Buffalo Bore 475 Linebaugh will do to an elephants head, I think a 300gr NF solid could get the job done.

However IF I wanted to shoot an elephant with my 405 I would do some load development and shooting with the NF 360gr bullets and the Woodleigh 400 gr bullets.

My rifle shoots so good with 300 gr bullets that I would NOT modify its throat for the 400gr bullets, I would just seat them deep enough to work with the factory barrel, and cut the cases back to crimp them in the crimp groove, if I wanted to use them.

dpcd

I had the "heavier than 300gr bullets in the 405" conversation one time with the Original owner of North Fork bullets.

He had done a lot of testing, since the 405 was a caliber he liked.

In fact, I bought my 405, after shooting his 405, on Prairie dogs for a couple of days, as I had never shot an 1895 in 405.
I liked th 405 so much I called back to a gunstore in Texas, that I knew had one in stock, and tole them to hold it for me till I got back from Wyoming.

Basically he indicated than with bullets above 300 grains you do loose some velocity and thus some expansion at longer ranges.

The few exceptions we thought where a heavier bullet might be better was in the case of cape buff, or Aussie buffalo, or elephants at close range, where a solid would be in order.
And because of the difference in bullets of different weights hitting to different points of impact, a soft would be needed as well.

I can say I agreed with him 100%.

Bullets can't jump out of cases in the magazine since they are under spring tension and the entire cartridge will move under recoil. It's not like they are fixed solidly in place like in the chamber of a double rifle. I do not think that will happen. I do see the viability of using 400 grainers for DG, however. But not for anything else. I have owned three 405s and I do like the caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Also many of the 400 Jefferies were regulated for the tropical load, 55 grain of Cordite, which in a 24" barrel, especially a worn one probably did not get much over 1925 or 1950fps, with 400 gr bullets.

Hodgdon's online data includes the 400 gn Woodleigh SN and is pressure tested. They could get 1950 fps with H4895. Raising pressure to -06 levels will get you a bit more speed, pushing 2050. They used 3.23" COL for their tests.

I have used the 450-400 both 3 inch and 3-1/4" for many years..Its very easy and perfectly safe to shoot a good double, even one of the older ones in good shape with a 400 gr. bullet at 2125 to 2150 FPS..Every one I know does that, and its a reccommeded load in "Shooting the English Double Rifle", Hey its 2013 not 1820..No more the cordite! Use RL-15,H-4831, IMR-4831, or RL-22 not H4895 as its a poor choice.

An example is 87 grs. of H-4831 will give you 2187 FPS at 35,300 PSI..26" barrel

IMR-4831 with 85 grs. of IMR-4831 will give you 2190 FPS at 34,400 PSI...26" barrel

RL-22 with 87 grs. gets you 2172 for 34,200 PSI 26" barrel..

Of note I have read in some older books where the original lower velocity were not approved of by all, and the loads were increased as time went by because of this..The 55 gr. guns were built for India and built for tiger hunting. BTW I have been told by some very well known double rifle makers the 55 gr. guns were as strong as the 60 gr. guns??? I wouldn't know as I have only owned the 60 gr. cordite guns.

IMO, there is no better double rifle caliber than the 450-400s, they don't beat you to death and recoil recovery is very fast and they seem to kill buffalo and elephant as well as my .470.

Judge G, had a 405 chamber out longer and magazine work to be able to seat bullet way out and he go 2000 FPS plus a little as I recall..He shot buffalo with it at our camp in the Selous..I tried to trade him out of it or buy the gun, but to no avail...

I'd love to have one of the newer Win mod 95 SRCs in an extended 405 and topped with a sliding bar peep sight, such as Juged G'sl It would make a dandy elk rifle in Idahos swampy black timber bottoms.

I am wanting to try 400 great bullets in my Teddy Roosevelt 405 model. I SHOOT 210:GR 41 MAG BULLETS FOR FUN ALOT.I use aa1680 powder. I WANT A GOOD 400 GR LOAD FOR MOOSE AND BEARS. has anyone tried TGE hornady 400 great bullets I need yo get some woodleighd too bad I can't size some of the.416 410 grain I have 5000 of already!

Although I have both .405 and .450/.400 rifles,and have tried bullets weights from .300 to 400+ in both of them, I haven't loaded 400 gr. bullets in my .405 ammo for 5 or 6 years now. No need to with all the high quality bullets available in the low to mid 300 grain range.

What I really started this post to tell you is that you likely need to buy a cannelure tool if you shoot a fair number of different rifles with other than factory standard-for-the cartridge bullets.

With a canneluring tool you can very quickly and easily roll a cannelure onto any bullet right where you need to have it for proper crimping.

Nost of the tools I've seen will work with any diameter or length of bullets.

When I want more penetration I use the 300 grain Barnes X bullet. Great accuracy as well...3/4" groups at 50 yards is common. RL 15 is my powder of choice for this bullet in the 95.

Hi guys, I just picked up a Teddy Rosevelt M95 in 405.

My eyes are getting old, so I'm thinking of putting a Peep sight on it, maybe one of the XS sights.
Any thoughts on which peep sights for the M95?
What about max pressures for it, 55-60k?

I've got 3 95s, two in 30-06 and one in 405. All of these fine firearms are cast bullet only. For the 30-06s I use a Mountain Molds 208 grain cast bullet a head of the the powder charge for a 220 grain jacketed, does wonderful.
I had Mountain Molds make me a wonderful 350 grain gc'd. I would bet that this bullet is not much longer then to 300 grain spitzer. I found the loading data for this bullet on this sight in this topic. Basically it's a case full of IMR 3031.
Shoot cast and save your jacketed for you walking safari across Africa.

Jim

Lar45

Most any deer, elk, pig, or bear, I know would be proud to be "kilt" with that fancy rifle.

Let us know how she shoots.

A Williams peep with standard front bead works well for me.

Several years ago I started a thread on the 405 which got me a lot of loading data.

Jim

crshelton

Is that the Williams FP 71 reciever sight?

Did you leave the open rear sight on the rifle or did you have to remove it to use the peep?

Also did I read correctly that you have used the 300 gr North Fork Solid in your 1895?

If so did it feed 100%, and have you shot anything with it?

Is that the Williams FP 71 reciever sight? YES

The barrel sight was removed, but I am considering installing a folding barrel sight.

Yes, I have hand loaded NF 300 grain PSP, FPS, and CPS bullets for my 1895 .405 and they all functioned fine in my rifle.

Yes, I have taken a water buff with the CPS and a friend used a CPS in his 1895 .405 on a bison.

http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?p=204

Thanks for the info.

you guys are just killin' me here. I have been looking for a 405 for three years now. Every time, the seller is talking over $2000. Cabela's has one of the TR versions, but $2500 is a bit past me. If I could just stop taking my summer vacation in RSA!

Idaho,
I know where there is a like new "Texas Version" at a reasonable price + lots of ammo, dies, bullets, etc. The rifle has less than a box of shells fired through it and is one of the reasons (I helped the owner sight it in- dead on from the factory)that I bought my two 1895 .405s - it just handles and shoots so darn well. If you like, I can check to see if the owner will sell it.