I am aking this here based on a note by Michael 458 over on the Big Bore thread. His comment:


I also have a thing for lever guns and while I will mention it here along with the B&M series, it really should be in the lever gun section I think. Liking .500 caliber I took a normal 50 Alaskan case and squeezed it down to .500 caliber. The guns are Win M71s and Marlin Guide guns, both with 18 inch barrels. One of the main reasons for this gun is the 500 gr Hornady. Lot's of test work with this bullet both on the range and in the field it is well proven at 2000 fps or better! The 50 B&M Alaskan can run that 500 gr Hornady at 2000 fps.

So MY question is this. Will this modification work on a Marlin .444 simply changing the barrel or a Marlin 45-70 changing the barrel or a Browning 71 changing the barrel. Michael mentioned the Winchester 71 but I don't think I want to alter another original. I have a 450 Alaskan on original Winchester long tang.
Will it require the Guide gun?

I will be asking SSK as well but thought I would post this here also.
Frank

I have a full custon Guide Rifle in 450GNR, which is a necked down 50 Alaskan to .458 with a short neck for maximum powder capacity. I have no trouble getting 2000fps out of 500gr bullets with an 18" bbl., and those I know that have 50 caliber leverguns also bitch about the feeding of longer blunt nosed bullets..but with the neck down to .458 I have no such issues. If your gonna neck it down, you may as well make good use of that neck for smooth feeding. Browning 71 and winny 71..one and the same and you can get either in late models. The .444/45-70 marlin makes for good platforms as well.

I know the 450 Alaskan works well and will produce some serious velocity but I like the idea of the 50. I tried a long time ago when the 500 SW was introduced and I see the the Armory is still trying but when I heard so many problems with the WW rifles I put it on the back burner.
I am hoping this will work with my extra 444. Montana Rifle provided the barrel for my .450 and I may go that route after I talk with Michael or SSK.
Frank

Frank

First many of the answers you seek are here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid.../50-B-M-Alaskan.html

Since I made the statement that you have quoted above I had to revise that velocity somewhat based on actual pressure data. In the beginning we converted two rifles, a Marlin Guide Gun and one of the Hi grade Browning M71s they did in 1986. Both of those rifles were actually all over 2000 fps with that 500 gr Hornady. Zero issues, no pressure signs, nothing that would indicate a problem.

All of the first data collected was done with that same Marlin action, but no actual pressures taken at that time. Later I built two more rifles, a Stainless Marlin, and one of the Marlins with the pistol grip stock, I forget all the different models. The same loads locked both of these guns up tight! So I connected strain gages up to the pistol grip rifle, Layne Simpson was busy with two articles concerning the 50 B&M Alaskan, and I decided it was time to capture pressure data, so I went to work. End story is, that getting to that magic 2000 fps in 18 inches takes you over pressure limits for the Marlins. These Marlins here started talking back to me when you approached 45000 PSI. Staying under 45000 PSI they ran smooth. We are able to work with around 1850 fps and stay under actual pressures, 1927 fps took us to 51000 PSI and the rifle let us know as well. The Browning M71 would handle another step upward and hit 1950 without a problem, in 18 inches of barrel. Layne had a 22 inch gun built on a Stainless Marlin and some of the same loads in his rifle gave 1950 fps.

Now, sorry for the long story on the one thing. I never messed with a 444, but its still a marlin 1895 so converting it should not be an issue I would not think. Of course it is a little more work than flipping out barrels and starting to shoot! There are internals to do to get that larger cartridge to work through the gun.

Personally I like the Marlin with the pistol grip stock far better than the guide guns to convert. The straight in line with the bore stock does a far better job of being able to handle muzzle flip. The guide guns stock has way to much drop in the rear, causing the muzzle to flip up quite a bit, especially with heavy loads. The Browning M71 conversions are a tiny bit heavier, but handle great, have the pistol grip stock, and I love those rifles, which I have 3 now..

I have developed an entire line of bullets specifically for this cartridge and rifle from Cutting Edge with solids and NonCons, and from North Fork we have an excellent 450 gr Premium Bonded Soft that is extreme. I have two more new bullets coming from CEB next week that will designed for another purpose, will work extremely well in the lever guns as well.

We have had zero issues, no problems at all feed and function, as woodrow mentions. We are feeding BBW#13 Solids, NonCons, and anything else we use and I have never seen a problem with them.

Hope that helps.

Michael

Thank you very much Michael. I too agree the grip on the 444 will suit me better as well. 1950 will be a serious punch at distance and I believe I will move my scope over to allow better accuracy for me.
I may add the extra velocity with a couple more inches of barrel. I don't mind the extra bit of length.
I am confident in my gunsmith and his ability to make the feed adjustments and forend and tube locking work since he did so in my .450 which will shoot violent loads without coming apart.
I will have to try more of the Edge bullets although I have been very happy shooting the swagged bullets I have been using. I have been able to shoot lighter bullets with velocity and use thicker jackets for toughness. Open point and solid are shooting well in my other rifles so I may just stay with those.
Thanks again,
Frank

Frank

You are welcome.

One thing, I won't allow the reamers to be rented, loaned out, or used by anyone. I will only allow SSK Industries to build any of the B&M rifles. This has nothing to do with money, or dollars, I get zero out of any rifles built, and have no vested dollar interest in them. What I do have is my reputation, I am the M part of the B&M, and I won't allow anyone else to work with the rifles. SSK has the experience with all the B&Ms, they know everything and all the little tricks to make them work properly. We have the dies and everything needed to start shooting immediately when you receive your rifle. From the very beginning I asked JD to make the B&Ms "Proprietary" to SSK. I can't have people out there running around building rifles that may or may not work as designed with my name on it.

Sorry if that is a problem, but that is the way it is.

Michael

As Michael 458 stated that about 45-46000PSI he ran into lockup. This is due to the case filling the chamber completely and pushing the bolt back against the locking lug, as the lug is lowered it trys to push the bolt forwad and can not due to the case filling the chamber. I ran intothis withthe 86 in 475 Turbull, and is why Winchester changed the 71 lock up.IMHO
Also the wide bulllet of the 50 makes them a PIA to cionvert and why i went with the 475 caliber, the same why to go with the 458 cal.

The 50 cal really suck for ther variety of bullets and the need to shorten the round if using the wide meplats

Doug

quote:

The 50 cal really suck for ther variety of bullets and the need to shorten the round if using the wide meplats

First I think Doug must be thinking .510 caliber, not .500. 50 B&M Alaskan is simple, run a 50 Alaskan .510 case in a 50 B&M Alaskan die, squeeze down to .500 caliber and load. 50 B&M Alaskan is .500 caliber---NOT .510.

There are a multitude of .500 caliber bullets available, and many of the common manufactured bullets are very suitable for the 50 B&M Alaskan--.500. Good Cheap shooting as well. Bullets from Speer, Sierra, Hornady, Barnes, Woodleigh, Swift being your common easy available bullets that can be used in the 50 B&M Alaskan. Some of which are superb and I have tested and used in the field. To name one of those is the 500 gr Hornady, fantastic bullet up to and around 2000 fps. I have used this in the field on giraffe, zebra, wildebeast with great success, and believe me it hits hard. In fact at the time I designed the 50 B&M Alaskan it was designed around the 500 Hornady. If I never had another bullet available I could very easy get by on this bullet for any thin skinned game, dangerous or otherwise. It does come a bit short I would think on buffalo, and other heavies, hence the designs from Cutting Edge and North Fork. Another is the Sierra 400 gr, excellent up to 2000 fps as well. Barnes buster is available and works well. Lighter bullets the 350 Swift A Frame a very serious bullet. Hornady 300gr Flex tips, Layne and I worked with those to over 2400 fps in the 18 inch guns for only 41000 psi! This bullet tests very well up to 2400 fps impacts.

Then there are even more serious bullets that I have developed specifically for the 50 B&M Alaskan from Cutting Edge Bullets and North Fork. Right now there is a 405/365 BBW#13 combination that will handle anything that walks the planet. Working with North Fork we developed an incredible 450 gr Premium Bonded Core bullet, specifically for the 50 B&M Alaskan.

No, for sure we don't come up short on bullets for the 50 B&M Alaskan, and .500 caliber. In fact, there are probably far more bullets available in .500 than any other big bore lever caliber.

As for shortening the case to get it to feed? We have not needed to do that, and have never had an issue with the standard 510Alaskan squeezed down to .500? Certainly these are not and have never been an issue to convert.

I am sure Doug must have been thinking .510 caliber, and is very correct on that, there is but a small handful of bullets available for the lever guns in .510, maybe 3-4, and then you have to move to cast bullets from there. One of the reasons we made the move to .500 in the first place.

Michael

Thanks for the added information Doug.
Thanks Michael for the rundown. It is good to see all sides of the story.
I am leaning to the 500 as I already have a 450 and multiples of 444 45-70 and 450 Marlin.
I will probably continue using the swagged bullets I have been playing with in 350, 400 and 500 grain.
I can order a new die for the .500 size and as you say multiple bullets already exist to compare to and to test.
What barrel twists would you recommend to run the 500 grain bullets at optimum stabilization?

Frank

Frank

All the .500 barrels are 1:12 twist PacNor barrels.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Frank

All the .500 barrels are 1:12 twist PacNor barrels.

Michael

Uh... There's a 9" twist rate .500 PacNor in Olympia, WA waiting to be chambered and installed.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Frank

All the .500 barrels are 1:12 twist PacNor barrels.

Michael

Uh... There's a 9" twist rate .500 PacNor in Olympia, WA waiting to be chambered and installed.

True Cappy, but it's not a 50 B&M Alaskan lever gun either! HEH..............


Also Frank, I have never had really good luck with cast or lead bullets in any of these .500s. Accuracy suitable at 50 yards, but at 100 it goes to crap.

Michael

Michael458

Yes I was thinking the .510 I dont have much knowledge with the .500 round.

Doug, as good as your rifles look, .500 or.510....who cares! :-)