Toying with the idea of looking for a levergun- it would be primarily used to chase elk in western Montana. Currently using a Winchester model 70 .300 win mag. Like the gun and I won't sell/trade it- but I've noticed where I hunt there is never really an opportunity for more than a 150 yd shot.

At first blush I like the idea of something in a .358 win caliber. Although it might be convienient to stick with the .300 winnie as I have its stats pretty much permanantly cast in concrete. The .300 in my model 70 is about all the recoil I want to fool with.

I looked at a BLR the other day- seemed like a sweet gun- but I have kind of an aversion to the made in Japan thing (I know thats a bit silly, but there it is) I don't care for the looks of the win model 88- I like something a little more classical. i don't know much about the savage 99's- other than they are on my list of I want ones. I never really cared for marlin stuff - couldn't say why exactly- strike me as being cheap I guess.


Any ideas on what to look for as far as a quality gun that hasn't gone over the top in some collectors view and pros/cons of various chamberings in a levergun. I'm not interested in a deer/black bear gun- I don't spend much time chasing deer, and I really have no intention of chasing bears.

Rather loose query, but I'm still trying to get an oar in the water and figure this out. kind of a if yu were to start from scratch- what would you end up with for an elk rifle?

John

If you do not need a scope take a look at a Winchester 1895 in 405 WCF.

I have a takedown model and really like it.

Save up and get a Winchester M-71 .348. I've seen a few for sale as of late. You may spend a couple of grand+ for a really nice one. But, think of it as an investment that you can actually use.

NE 450 No 2
What kind of sights do you have on your 1895. I want one but will probably need a different stock.

John H- If you decide to select your rifle from current factory models, you really should reconsider a BLR. Not a long action version, as it has a completely different feel than the short action units. Any caliber from .308 up should handle elk at 150 yards. After years of switching from one gun to another, I finally settled on a BLR in .358 as my primary elk rifle. I did so because it is light & compact, accurate as most bolts, extremely versitle with varying handloads, capable of handling about anything that walks on this half of the world, & can deliver 250 yard shots without a problem.

My primary elk load is a 250 grain Speer Hotcor. I switch to 250 grain Grand Slams when hunting in your state near the park ( bears ).

Felt recoil is less than my Model 70 300 Mag., & load development is not difficult ( like most .308 based cartridges, lots of components work well ).

yeah- the BLR in a .358 is sounding pretty good. I may have to start watching for one. I have Ruger no. 1 in a .45-70 I keep threatening to use- but I never do. It may be trading stock for the BLR. Kind of wish they still made it with a steel receiver - I don't care for cast steels, aluminum, or plastic on the business part of a gun.

Not a believer in the whole short mag thing- but .325 wsm might kind of do the do - if it wasn't so new fangled.

john

Mike

Mine has the standard sights. The reciever is drilled for a reciever sight but I have been unable to find one.

N E 450 No 2
That's what I was afraid of. My eyes don't focus well enough to use the standard sights anymore. I might get one anyway, just cause I want one.

N E 450 No 2 Look on line for Buffalo Arms Co.
for Winchester 1895 sights, or X S Sights on line for sights for your 405 WCF. You can see my Winchester 1895 405 WCF here in the Big Bore forum. I sent mine to Fred Zeglin at Z-HAT for
my NECG Express sights,NP3 coating,recoil pad.
Fred is the best there is for any kind of work on the Winchester 1895.
AMRA

Any thoughts or experience with the .325 wsm in the BLR? Feed ok? recoil manageable? I read a comment that the tradeoff on the ballistic coefficient makes this an inefficient round.

I'm thinking I'd like a little bigger caliber than the .308- I'm not sure the .325 is enough bigger to matter.

I like the Nozler partition bullets, I have never had one fail to kill what it hit, I've never ruined any meat with one, and I've never had to track a wounded animal with one. I'd like to stick with the partitions so I'd like to get enough MV to keep the partition an effective bullet.

For elk at 15yards or under?

sounds like a 45-70 in a Marlin 1895 would be the ticket
IF you handload, if not then a 450Marlin

If a big 45 isn't your cup of tea then I'd think long and hard about a Remington pump action in 35whelen.

just a "bit" more than a 358Win, NOT "made in Japan"
and probably a touch quicker on a followup shot than a levergun.

AD

AMRA

Thanks for the info.
The style of sight I am looking for is a Lyman or redfield reciever sight that will fit the factory holes on the side of my 95.
Many of the new 1895's I have seen are not drilled and tapped, but mine is. I have an inquery to Lyman at this time.

If I cannot fine the correct reciever sight I may have the rear sight modified to British style Express sights like I have on my doubles.

N E 450 ,The reciever sight that Buffalo Arms has is a reproduction of the old Lyman sight
that you are looking for.
Amra

John H- I did not mention the BLR in .325WSM because of your stated recoil limits. I have never fired a .325 levergun, but i would imagine that it comes at you hard & fast when you pull the trigger.

I agree with Allan DeGroot's remarks concerning a Remington pump in .35Whelan. As an ex PA resident & hunter, I always have one around in one caliber or another. I don't think there is anything quicker at getting back on target with a followup shot.

Here in the West, the gun is not as sought after as it is back East. If you can find one, it may be a bargain.

AMRA
I think the Lyman sight you are refering to is the one that attaches to the front of the reciever. I would have to have my rifle drilled for that sight. I have actually handled Original Winchesters with this sight.

I prefer the "square" reciever sight like a Lyman 66.

Some very good info on this topic. My joy is my Browning 71 in 348. I shoot a 250gr Barnes on top of Varget for 2230fps. It will put 3 into 2" at 100yds and hits like a train. fwiw

quote:

Originally posted by jimincolo:I agree with Allan DeGroot's remarks concerning a Remington pump in .35Whelan. As an ex PA resident & hunter, I always have one around in one caliber or another. I don't think there is anything quicker at getting back on target with a followup shot.

Here in the West, the gun is not as sought after as it is back East. If you can find one, it may be a bargain.

Actually there is... a Semi-auto, But I'll bet they are even less sought after out west...

AD

I love the M95 405 "big medicine". Mine came with a Lyman 66,rubber butt plate, and no tang safety. Recoil is like my 9.3x62 with factory loads and it will put 3 inside 2" at a 100.
Working on Barnes and Hornady 300gr reloads. Thinking a meat Bison might be an interesting
way to Blood it in the Off Season.

Estacado

And from the mount word came down . . .

45-70

quote:

Originally posted by john h:
Toying with the idea of looking for a levergun- it would be primarily used to chase elk in western Montana. Currently using a Winchester model 70 .300 win mag. Like the gun and I won't sell/trade it- but I've noticed where I hunt there is never really an opportunity for more than a 150 yd shot.

I went through a similar process some years ago and tried the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. I've been very happy with it and have packed it many a mile and taken exactly one Elk with it. The bull was running right at me and I zapped him at 18yds. He dropped immediately. I reload a 405gr JSP @1800fps - which isn't a super hot load. I have a Williams WRGS reciever sight setup on it and I'm very comfy, very confident shooting it.

I've had to pass on a couple Elk that were just too far, but I'm at that stage in life where I like to hunt, not just shoot. If all I wanted to do was fill my freezer I would buy an angus from the local rancher.

Too bad the Marlin design is pressure limited as I would love a Marlin-style levergun that could launch a 200gr @2400fps.

I have a Browning copy of the Winchester Model 95 that I had restocked and rebarreled to .35 Whelen. It wears a Williams receiver sight and is a great elk gun out to 200 yards. Beyond 200 yards, I am not comfortable with iron sights for game, though the rifle is absolutely capable. I shoot 250-grain Nosler partitions at 2,400 fps and it works great. A picture is attached.

Dave

Loud N Boomer
That is beautiful

i've always thought that the winchester M95 take-down in .30-06 would make a fine pack rifle for north american big game

I have been using a marlin 1895GS 45-70 for a timber rifle, I bought it two years ago for the same reasons you may be looking. Most of the hunting I do here a 100yd shot is a long ways in the timber after Deer or Elk. So far I have shot one Elk, with it and my hunting buddy has shot two with his. They are great out to 200yds which for me covers 90+% if my Elk hunting. And they hammer the Elk, no lack of impact with them. If you do not hand load look into Buffalo bore or Garrett ammo. I found it to be so much fun to hunt with I have used it on 3 Deer and two Antelope as well.

WyoXJ- What loads are you using in your .45-70? I'm still a bit stuck between the light/fast vs. heavy/slow conundrum. I have a ruger no-1 in a .45-70, figure the one day I take it out- I'll get a picture perfect broadside shot at 350 yds.

I have two loads for my 45-70 that I use for hunting. My rifle is set up with ghost ring sights and a quick detach scout scope as well ( and it does return to zero no matter how many times I take it off). When hunting with my Ghost rings ( bad weather, really thick timber, or if I smack my scope ) I use a 425gr Cast wide flat nose bullet made by Beartooth bullets. This bullet is loaded to 1750fps and is sighted in +1" @ 100yds. This load and sight setup will let me aim dead on to 125yds, and this is about as far as I want to shoot with the ghost rings. While hunting with my scout scope on I use 350gr Northfork bullets loaded to 2000fps these are sighted in +3.5" @ 100yds giving me a 200yd PBR. The scout scope is what I use for the great majority of the time unless I need either the penetration of the cast bullets or faster sighting of the ghost rings. With the 45-70 it is my opinion that looking for a fast load is nonsense if someone wants a fast load the 45-70 is not for you. Where the 45-70 shines is in conditions where 200yds is an absolute max range and big thump is on the menu with big heavy bullets. I can tell you that the 45-70 makes my 7mm Rem look like a pellet gun when it comes to impact on Elk!.

Thanks Wyo, "light" is a relative term :-) I think your 350gr northfork sounds like the load I've been thinking of. One problem I have with the .45-70 is that its a bit hard to make a plinking / general shooting / proficiency load & a wambo elk load both work well.

jh

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

Too bad the Marlin design is pressure limited as I would love a Marlin-style levergun that could launch a 200gr @2400fps.

actually the limitation of the 35Remington from launching 200's at 2400fps isn't the limitation of the Marlin action but Rather the SAAMI standard for the 35Remington at a mere 35,000CUP.

the Marlin action is good for 44,000CUP, probably more with the smaller bolt thrust
of a 35rem sized case head and thicker
chamber walls.

The 356Winchester is capable of nearly 2400fps with 220gr bullets even by the conservative data
in the Speer manual, and that's from the 20" barrel of a Win94-BigBore.

If you REALLY want a lever rifle I'm sure you can find a Savage 99 in 358...

AD

I've got a browning stainless BLR in a 358 win mag. I use it for elk/hogs/blackbear/deer up in Co and TX. I wanted one for some time, but it did take me a while to find it. I am also planning on hunting with my Marlin 45/70 cowboy.

I noticed that you regularly use a 300 win mag. If you're looking for something flatter than a 358 win (although in my mind the 358 is flat enough), you might look into a BLR in a 300 or 325 wsm. Good luck and let us know how you go.

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
I have a Browning copy of the Winchester Model 95 that I had restocked and rebarreled to .35 Whelen. It wears a Williams receiver sight and is a great elk gun out to 200 yards. Beyond 200 yards, I am not comfortable with iron sights for game, though the rifle is absolutely capable. I shoot 250-grain Nosler partitions at 2,400 fps and it works great. A picture is attached.

Dave

A real beauty and in my fave cal. If'n the taxes get too deep, you know who to call.

quote:

Originally posted by john h:
Thanks Wyo, "light" is a relative term :-) I think your 350gr northfork sounds like the load I've been thinking of. One problem I have with the .45-70 is that its a bit hard to make a plinking / general shooting / proficiency load & a wambo elk load both work well.

jh

To be honest I found it to be fairly easy.............if I am understanding what you are wanting to do. Like I said before I use both ghost ring sights and a scout scope, with a hunting load that I use for each sight ( 425gr cast with my ghost rings & 350gr Northforks with my Scout scope). These are not cheap bullets to practice with, so what I did was create loads that are very similar to the hunting loads using cheap bullets. I like shooting with the ghost rings the best they are a lot of fun to practice with but the Beartooths are not super cheap to shoot, and when we go shooting we will usually shoot 40-80 rounds a trip out shooting. So to try and keep it more affordable I loaded a bunch of 405gr Oregon trail cast bullets (even these are not so cheap with the price of lead so high!) that shoot to the same POI as my 425gr Beartooths do. This lets me shoot for heck of a lot less, the 405gr Oregon trail bullets are a lighter load but still have a near identical POI @ 100yds. When using my scope I practice with Hornady 350gr FPs instead of my Northforks and these loads are as close as can be out to 200yds. I still triple check that my hunting loads are on the money each fall before I head out hunitng. One thing I forgot to mention is that the recoil with either hunting load gets fairly lively, more than some folks like to deal with. But if your shots are going to be 150yds or less and recoil is a concern I would load a ( wide flat nose ) 405gr cast bullet to 1500fps and call it good. That 405gr @ 1500 would offer more penetration than you would ever need, and would give you close to a 150yd point blank range on a 6" Kill Zone. For comparison here are some recoil figures, but what the calculations say and what it feels like shooting can be a little off so this is just to copmare.

.300Win Mag 8.5 lb rifle 180gr bullets at 2950fps. 26.97ftlbs of recoil @ 14.3fps
.45-70 7lb rifle 425gr bullets at 1750fps 41.31ftlbs of recoil @ 19.49fps
.45-70 8lb rifle w/scope 350gr bullets @ 2000fps 33.94ftlbs of recoil @ 16.53fps
45-70 7lb rifle 405gr bullets @ 1500fps 27.98ftlvs of recoil @ 16.04fps

Here is my set up.

Id get a M-95 Win. carbine (one of the new ones) and stuff it with 200 or 220 gr. woodleighs.

I did see a 9.3x63 conversion in a Win M-95 for sale in the classifeid some months ago and it was an awesome rifle, just the ticket for a big bull elk..I couldn't imagine a better rifle for such..

I have hunted elk with a Sav 99 in 308.

All the elk I have eaten that were shot with a .308 were tough old cows.

I am switching to a 7mmMag or 300WinMag for 2008.

Lots of good cartridges for shooting elk at 150 yards..Anything from a 30-30 to a whatever...

If its thick brush, black timber then I'd opt for a big bore such as a, 338-06 or 9.3x62 in a Win. M-95 as an ideal custom rifle.

More practical options would be a 358, 308, 284 in a Savage Mod. 99 or Browning BLR...

A Rem pump in 35 Whelan would be a good choice, as would a lot of bolt rifles.

Buy the blr .358 win. they are easy to find on the gun auction sites for 450 to 600. There isn't anything the .348 can do that the .358 can't do better. It has a good balance of killing power,bullet weight and recoil. I would try to buy one with a steel reciever. I shoot .250 grn speers at 2350 and nothing has walked away from it yet.

Not to mention that bullets for the .348 are a narrow range of choices these days.

AD

I vote Marlin 1895gs. (The 45-70 stainless guide gun)

Load it mild for practice and 405 grainers at near 2000 fps for elk...or much less would work fine with hard casts too, plenty of penetration.

.450 Marlin MXLR, is a great elk rifle for my money, especially with the new Hornady Leverevolution ammo.

I had Kreiger build me a 405 on a Model 95 when he first started to build them. I put ERA pedestal rear and fiber optic front on it . Really liked it. Could not load it as I wanted for Africa because of magazine limitations so sold it. Now have one of the new 95 Carbines in 30/40 and really like it . Would like to put a peep on the bolt like I used to have on my Model 71. Then it would be pretty perfect. Nice guns.

Zimbabwe,
You can covert the .405 chamber and feed to seat the bullets out far enough that you can equal the 450-400 3" with a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS...Judge G, has one and he shot some buffalo with us, using that combination..Sounds like a neat rig to me....