Yes that's all true from what I hear but really you are only circumventing the law by taking another gun or bribeing a game scout. The 45-70 simply does not make the cut and that's been discussed at some length and detail by members who have hunted there a great deal. There are areas that the 45-70 is legal and game ranches are plentifull in some countries. If the 45-70 trips your trigger and your legal I'll be here cheering you on. It's certainly not what I would want to rely on after spending 10-15k. However if some magazine or bullet co. wants to sponsor me on a hunt I'm sure I'd turn into a old whore in no time flat ! One has to wonder if theese very same conversations didn't take place in the late 50's and early 60's in gun clubs and camps through out N. America as it was so fashionable then to convert Winchester 1892's to 44 Mag and declare them Elephant guns. I guess it just depends on your view point but useing a lever gun certainly could put the D in DG in a hurry and if it weren't for the D then why bother at all ?

I told you contact Jungli Bains on the board..

Trying to bait me ..

I will be having none of that thank you

thay do start at far less then you think

As a matter of fact, if the game scout says you can do something then its legal in Tanzania, he is the sole person that can tell you what to do and what not to do...Its not a bribe, its a tip, and its legal...

A 45-70 is illegal for the big 5 by law in Tanzania and Zimbabwe at least, but if the game scout allows it then you may use it.

Such guns will certainly kill any animal especially with a hard cast bullet, but that sure does not make them a dangerous game gun, and I would hesitate to shoot any thick skin game or Lion with one unless I had nothing else then I probably would, but knowing I just might bite off more than I can chew...Mostly this business of hunting dangerous game with such calibers is just internet bullshit IMO.....

Come on Ray you old skunk.Decide which side of the fence your going to let your arse ride on. It can't be both legal and illigal. Ok so if the game scout takes money its a "legal" bribe. That's BS and it just doesn't make it right. Aside from that and your ever changing stance, which I'm sure you get a good laugh out of, I really think its all just internet hogwash.

ChuckWagon,
That is a typically American reply, if its not right here in the USA, then its not right anywhere... In Mexico,So. America or most of Africa, in fact in most of the world its acceptable, and probably the only difference it they accept bribery over the table as a way of life from the political top to bottom, it is totally accepted up to a point..Thats not hogwash and I been in the foriegn hunting business many years..I even got a receipt for a legal bribe two years ago...Of course you had better damn well know how to approach the subject and what is acceptable and what is not or you could get into trouble..That is how gamescouts survive IMO...I do not know of a Safari company that does not practice this least everyone would be in jail for shooting female Zebras!

Chuck

I have to side with Ray on this. By the letter of the regs a .45-70 is not legal for anything bigger than Impala in Zimbabwe! It's factory loadings (Paper specs by the major ammo makers) put it - along with the martini henry in "Class D" - ie Impala and Warthog sized game.

The fact of the matter is, that it has a large hole in the barrel. It "makes" the minimum Caliber (9,2mm). If it has been properly loaded I am happy if the client wants to use it on class "b" game (lion, Eland, Giraffe) without any reservations. If they want to use it on Ele, buff, or hippo, we can negotiate. If he accepts the cartridges limmitations, that it cannot dig you out of a hole etc then ok. Have exactly the same possition with muzzel loaders. ie Yes, the right ones will cleanly kill ele and buff, but only under the right circumstances.

But what does the "law" say. Who cares? My chrono got shot by my shooting buddy last year and I haven't been able to get a new one yet. The game scout knows about .303's, AK 47, and may be able to distinguish between a .375 and a .458 Win (no Guarantee- I lost a good Sergent 18 months ago because he tried to finish off a wounded buff with .375 rounds loaded into his .458. And he was head of a small sub station and could read, write and speak fluent English!!!)

What matters is - is the PH comfortable with your choice!

I am often more comfortable with the client using smaller rifles than bigger!

Now, I'm new to this so go easy. When I was looking at booking, I was told a great deal about bore dia. but I never had anyone tell me how much umph had to come out of that bore. As a matter of fact, some of the contacts I made, I found funny cause the 45 cal was in irregardless of energy or proj design, but my 340 weath. with a solid was out. Made no sense. Like I sais ,I heard a lot more about how it had to be over a certain cal. than what came outta that tube.

By the letter of the regs

Sect 53 (of the new corrected edition of SI 362)

any person who hunts any animal specified in (scedule A = Ele, buff, hippo) shall use a weapon having a rifled barrel and propelling a projectile of not less than 9,2 mm in diamiter with not less than five killojules of energy at the muzzle.
(old edition said 5.3kj of energy but I had that altered 7 years back so that there was no argument over the 9,3 x62)


In same legal format...
Schedule B = Lion, Eland & Giraffe = 7mm diamiter and 4,3 kilojules of energy

Scedule C = Leopard, croc, kudu, Zebra, Sable etc = 7mm and 3killojules of energy

Secule D = implala, bushpig reedbuck etc= 5.6mm & 850joules of energy.

Note, by the regs, you may not hunt a leopard with a shotgun. You may use a 7mm rem mag on eland- but not if you are hunting with me you won't!

Kinetic energy, being velocity based is not the best. The draft legislation for handgun and black powder hunting uses a momentum based requirement. Also who the hell knows how to work out Killojules of energy??? One parks officer, and out Police Forensic Ballistics man in Zim might be able to do it if they looks it up but that is all! You multiply ft/lb of energy by 1.356 and divide by 1000 if you are actually interested which gives the .45-70 at published factory specs 2.4kj of energy. ie good for pigs only.

This is africa - who cares what an obsolete, irrelevant piece of legislation says if there is absolutly nobody who understands what it says let alone enforces it. In the whole of Zim government there is not a single Chronograph.
Charlie Haley - the Police Forensic man, has his own personal one, and I used mine for the handgun, blackpowder and bowhunting trials. When the army mortar making factory tried to go into small arms ammo they had to borrow charlies chronograph for their trials (fortunatly they gave up)/

I'm sorry gentlemen I have to respectfully dissagree. If it is the law then that is it for me. Without game rules and laws we will be nothing more than a armed bunch of savages. I do not dispute that it happens as I am in no position for that. However I fail to see the difference between this and flat out poaching. Whats next ? Bribe a game scout for not having a license ? What good is the game save profit without peramiters ? I have no qualms what so ever with the ardent lever gunner or historical shooter but there are areas and game ranches that this would seem to be legal and a more viable option.

Chuck

I'll conceed a point there...

That said, I would never carry a sub-legal firearm because I know what is needed to back up my client. What my client uses when I am standing behind him, and am legally responsible if things go wrong, I feel is my call.

The most powerful bow on the market isn't as powerful (on paper) as a .22 Hornit