I use 51 grains IMR3031 under a 400 grain hard cast gas check bullet. It's a compressed load that makes 1800 fps in my #1.
At that the recoil is harsh. At 2000 fps it would be too much.

I'm getting great results with AA2200, filled to the base of the bullet, behind the RCBS 405 gascheck design. Goes 1850 fps and kicks the snot outta me. (In a Marlin 1895 SS)
You can break 2000 fps with Reloader 7, but it shore does hurt!!

Hard cast 420gr FNGC and 55gr Varget gives 1785fps and considerable recoil. Personally I'm cautious regarding obtaining 2000fps from a Marlin using a 400gr projectile.
Cheers...
Con

Miller

I have just started to load for a 1886el in 45/70, I use ADI powders - ADI also make the extreme range for HOGDON

The load I started with is 405grn Remington with 48gr AR2207 (this powder is close to or the same as H4198) with a 22" barrel it is giving 1925fps recoil with the 7&1/2 lb rifle is stout. The HOGDON site only lists trapdoor loads. You would need to look up some manuals for a starting load for H4198.

The loads on the ADI site seem to be well over what other sources recommend - looking at 3rd edition Hornady manual H4198 max load for a 350grn is less than the start load on the ADI site for 400grn with 2207.



ADI site list the max load of 2207 (53grns) as getting 2108fps

The Barnes manual doesn't even get that vel using a Ruger No.1



So I would check a few sources for load data with H4198 and not use my load or the loads on the ADI site that use AR2207 as a guide. DO NOT USE MY LOAD, unless you can get AR2207 powder then the start load is 48grns.



REPEAT DO NOT USE MY LOAD - even as a guide

Cool site I will have to check it out more.

Mr. Miller, I don't really think that 400 grain bullets are heavy for the 45-70 in the cowboy gun. I've shot 510 gr Paper patched at 1600 fps plus with a load of RX7 a bit above 30 grains. I did not find recoil to be excessive. It was not mild by any means but a bit more wouldn't hurt. I forget the source of the load data at the moment, perhaps Alliant , but it is below max. I'd guess you could tickle 1800 fps before you got there. It shoots near MOA from a rest BTW.

Thanks DD,

I was thinking of a load suitable for moose.

A heavy or max load. My idea was a 400 at 2000 F.P.S.

And had even started considering a hardcast 405 GC at 1800+. I know nothing about leading problems at these velocities.

Then you mention 510 paper patched bullets. I like the idea of the 510 bullets but where could I get paper patched ones?

So much info. I really appreciate the replies and when I am not so busy working I plan on working up some loads.

Ron

You'll have to find Montana Precision Swaging in Butte, MT. via information. Sorry, the number is not in my immediate possession and I don't think the internet has found Butte yet. Anyway, ask for Russ. This particular bullet is available cup base or flat, RN 1:20 lead. Swaged at .450" diameter. Pretty sure it'll handle a moose BTW. Call me goofy if you want but I'm not an ardent supporter of hard cast bullets. I know they work but... If I want velocity I wrap them in paper. Few things match the terminal performance of pure or soft alloy lead. Paper patch isn't that difficult to do, whether or not you swage or cast. Seyfried took a Cape buffalo not too long ago with such a bullet(1:20) at 540 grins(above 500 grains they become grins in case you didn't know that ). Metford-Gibbs rifle, a Selous gun he said. Anyhoo, the bullet was found under the hide on the off side shoulder.

I think your 400's will work on moose too, just a different approach. JMO but the difference between the 2000 fps/400 gr vs. what I suggest is nil insofar as trajectory is concerned, but if you like the weight Russ can provide them too. There are several threads 'round here in the archives relating to PP, but if you have questions PM me, or a fella named Brent that hangs around the BP forum might help to. See his web site: http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html

That is a cool site about the paper patched bullets. I read it a couple weeks ago. Very informative.

Another concern of mine is that where I hunt moose there are also bears. Some can be big bears.

I know a hard cast bullet will go through a bears head. How would a pure lead bullet do?

I shot a moose through the head with 41 mag and a 293 hardcast bullet at 1275 f.p.s. The bullet went through about 9 inches of solid bone under the brain and out the other side.

I one shot a moose in the head with a 38 special lead round nose point blank. The bullet bounced back and hit me in the leg and left a nice painfull bruise. At first I thought I was hit by a bone fragment but at my feet was the flattened bullet.

Thanks,
Ron

Ron, I haven't tried a whack at a bear with anything, but in regards to penetration I doubt there is anything in N.A. that would survive a head shot with one of them. Seyfried had doubts when he went after the buff but was constrained by certain aspects of the rifle that required he use the softer alloy. I don't know which is tougher though, a bear's head or the chest of a cape buffalo. One thing I am certain of is that you could hardly wreak more carnage with a boiler room shot short of using explosive bullets. It is the style of bullet that brought the American Buffalo to the brink of extinction in very short order. I hear they're a bit bigger that bear.

The range berm where I shot up until recently was composed of a sandy loam soil that became relatively hard when rain soaked. 250 gr .35 cal Hornady IL bullets could generally be found about 12" beyond POI is such conditions. By comparison, my 300 gr. .44 mag PP loads at 1550 +/- would typically be found deeper that my elbow, so figure 22-26" or so, usually retaining 98% of weight and about 2 calibers of expansion. Nothing here is the south will stop one though, and I've not bothered to do bone penetration tests, so I could not say one way or another what they would do against really heavy bone. You can PP hard cast if you like but obturation is problematic, sizing all important.

Regards...

Dan
I did say the knife will loose the edge quickly cutting paper, but you have answered the question, that you should lube paper there by avoiding wear.