I picked up a Savage 99, pre-mil, in .308 Win over the summer and finally got it out to the range this morning. I mounted a 3-9 Simmons scope with Weaver rings/bases. The shot group is stringing horizontally almost 5 inches with factory 165 gr Fusions (vertically within an inch). Any ideas what may be causing it?

Thanks.

Hello Eric:

At what range was the 1"x5" group shot? Not knowing anything else about the rifle, the group you described sounds like a "weather report"--the result of 90-degree wind.

If it wasn't windy, is everything in the system secure? No side-to-side wiggles anywhere? More info is needed before a more educated guess can be made.

Best regards,

Dave Manson

The wind was primarily blowing more towards me than cross. Didn't see the weather today, but would guess maybe 10 mph. The group was at 100 yards. Everything on the rifle seems tight. Scope rings & bases had loc-tite used on them by the guy who installed them at the store. I was shooting from a solid rest.

After verifying that EVERYTHING is tight and your problem isn't due to a loose screw someplace, have someone else fire a couple of groups out of your rifle to make sure YOU aren't part of the problem. Do you get the same issue with ALL ammo...??? If the issue persists,change the scope.
Take the Burris out of the equation.
Diagnosing this problem requires you to eliminate variables.

Check the scope I had a older redfeild fail me.

The rifle was throwing shoots all over the place.

Then the recticle broke so I knew it was a scope problem.

What are you using for a front rest? Whatver it is, it needs to be something which contributes to placing the rifle back on the bags with great consistency.

With a lever gun, you will probably be lifting the rifle off of both the front and rear rests after every shot, to open the lever, insert the next cartridge, and close the lever. That is one of the down sides to shooting a lever gun from the bench unless your rests are taller than they would be for some other type of action. It makes it triply important to get the gun back onto both rests (especially the front one) exactly the same as it was for the previous shot(s). The front rest needs to be back at the same point on the rifle forend both length-wise and horizontally for every shot.


Having to lift the gun to reload it also means you shift your position at the bench every shot if you are not careful and have not done a whole lot of shooting over the years to develop good "muscle memory" to tell you when there is an inconsistency in your hold.

All those things work together to make good groups more difficult from the bench with a lever gun. Then add in a little wind, and groups can get larger than we expect, in a big hurry.

That is even tougher with a Model 99, especially an older one, with one of their more rapidly tapered, small diameter forends.

It doesn't mean you can't get good groups from the bench with your lever rifle, just that it is more work, and requires a consistent bench technique. It is an acquired skill, just like playing a violin well is.

If you don't have a lot of experience from the bench with lever guns, then I'd second the motion to get someone else, preferably a long practiced, known to be excellent, lever gun shooter to try it before you decide there is a fault in your rifle, sights, or ammunition.

If he can't shoot good "windage groups" with it either, then I'd next take a good look at the bedding of the forend.

Well, everything seems tight on the rifle. I'm going to get some other brands/weights of ammo from dad this weekend and try to get to the range and test some groups, to eliminate or blame the ammo (depending on results). I know ammo could be the culprit as I had an old ruger mk2 308 that loved Win 150 silvertips, but hated the 150 partition gold (like 10 inch groups hated).

Alberta-I was just using a plain old 3 point rest (padded front, leather strap for the rear, not a lead sled or anyting fancy). As part of my next shooting session I'll keep what you had to say about rests in mind when shooting it. The rest is definitely not lever friendly for cycling.

If I'm still stringing after ammo and careful technique, I'll take it on in to the gunsmith for a once over. Had hoped to baptize it with whitetail this year, but might have to wait until the following since the season starts in 7 days.

Thanks for the feedback DManson, Don, just-a-hunter, p dog, and Alberta!

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
If everything else is tight like mentioned above, try some different glass. Simmons are OK scopes for the money but I have seen a lot of them fail.

Good luck, I highly doubt its the rifles fault.

Todd

I agree. If everything is tight, and different ammo doesn't fix the problem, I'd try a different scope.

My M99-R had a bad wandering zero when I acquired it.

I used a fix I got from fixing the same problem with my NEF single shots.

Pull the forearm.
Put an O-ring in the hole where the attachment screw comes through then put the forearm back on.
No I don't know what size O-ring. You'll have to guess.
Now tighten the screw and fire a few rounds. I was able to adjust POA by tightening or loosening the screw.
I also did some work on the inside of the forearm to relieve uneven pressure on the barrel.

Once I was happy with the groups I marked where the screw was and applied clear nail polish to keep the screw in place.

I also discovered that when shooting off the bench, I put receiver in the rest not the forearm.

My savage 99 in 284 is capable of sub-moa groups with good loads. 5" groups likely means a bedding issue if you are doing your job on the bench. Front fore-arms can be a pain in the but if they are not bedded well. Along with the o-ring trick you might also need to sand a bit off the stock where it buts into the receiver to relieve pressure. McPherson likes to lighten up the fore-end and have it glass bedded at the front screw and receiver junction. This treatment really helped my Win 95 in .405. It's now a 1 ragged holer!

Another thing I wouldn't want a rifle that is super sensitive to front bag placement. From a field rest I have assumed all sorts of unorthodox rests to make a shot on game and if the gun is very sensitive to how it is held I'd be in a bind.

Damn...one more thing,,even with my MOA capable 99 with loads it doesn't like 3.5" is very possible. A bit of load development can work wonders.

It sounds to me like a multi-faceted problem....likely bench technique coupled with one or two other things.

One nice thing is, bench technique doesn't count for much in the hunting fields. At a bench, we are often trying for very small groups, rather than just trying to hit what we aim at. Sometimes the two can be less than complementary to each other because we are trying and straining too hard hoping to get tiny groups. And at the bench, we have to strive for consistency in unfamiliar positions if we don't do a lot of bench shooting with that particular type of action & stocking.

In the whitetail hunting field we may actually be more consistent just by holding/shouldering the rifle in a familiar way...especially if we have done a lot of field shooting over many years and have learned to shoot "on the swing" much like upland bird hunters do.

Anyway, I think you will find the answer, maybe when and how you least expect to. You seem to have stick-to-it-ivness, which is a big plus.

And if you don't find the answer before deer season, you might want to try the gun for whitetails anyway. The winds will undoubtedly be different, and so will what you are concentrating on...hitting a nice deer rather than shooting groups.

Though 89% of the AR folks will probably have stroke when I say this, even 5.0 MOA is adequate for deer out to 150 yards...that's still a 7.5" group. And, as we are talking horizontal, not vertical, that's a lot smaller than a deer's vital area if the deer is sideways to us. Plus that likely only 3.75" from where we aimed...3.75 "to either side adds up to 7.5" when both sides of the group are included.

BTW, I doubt your ammo is a major problem...it held 1 MOA for elevation, which is a sign it is good ammo for factory stuff.

(It could be a problem with the horizontal adustment spring in your scope; not returning either the erector lens housing or reticle to the same horizontal position inside the scope tube after each shot. Which one depends on how your scope is designed.)

Sounds like a scope problem is a good possibility. I would also carefully check the fit of the buttstock to the rear end of the action,
as well as the tightness of the thrubolt. 99's are known to settle into their stocks and cause the rear edges of the receiver to bear on one or the other (or both)
side panels, which will cause the action to squirm about in the stock inlet a bit from shot to shot - not an accuracy enhancement by any means. The 99 should bed squarely and firmly
at the rear of the tang, and both side panels should have a slight but definite clearance. The buttstock thrubolt should, of course, be pretty effing tight, but as it comes snug there
should be no wobble between metal and wood - a bit of bedding compound will fix loose spots.

One way to get a possible indication of whether it is a barrel/bedding problem is to fire a couple of more 5-shot groups, each time starting with a stone-cold barrel.

As you fire the 5 shots, spot them and plot them on a blank target at the bench. If each shot is farther out horizontally as you fire, then the shots are doing what is called "walking" sideways.

That indicates that as the barrel heats, it MAY be bearing harder & harder against something on the inside of the barrel channel of the forestock (usually on the side AWAY from which the shots are walking toward).

In lever actions with two piece stocks like the M99, it MAY also indicate that as the barrel lengthens by heating, it is getting into a bind on one side or the other of where the forend fits to the front of the receiver. (Barrels lengthen in both directions as they heat, so they can come to bear harder against the front of the action than when cold.)

Heavy emphasis on the "MAY" in each of those possibilities, but the possibilities are things to check out.

It is also possible that when the barrel was made, it had to be straightened considerably by bending in a barrel straightener's vice after being bored, rifled and contoured.

If that is the case, and I hope it isn't, then the barrel may be returning as it heats toward its original bend from which it needed straightening. In that instance, basically the heat of firing MAY be temporarily "de-stressing" it by relaxing the tension it was placed under to bend it straight, thus allowing it to be progressively more crooked again bit by bit as it gets hot.

If it is the latter, you may be able to have it permanently de-stressed by sophisticated heat treatment. But it would be easier and less costly just to sight it in for wherever the first two shots from a cold barrel hit, as you are seldom going to get more than two shots at any animal in the whitetail hunting field.

Ok, just got back in from the range with two 3-shot groups with the fusions. I had checked the scope screws and could turn a couple about 10-20 degrees, so got them just a bit tighter. First group - 4 inches high, 1 inch right, and 1 inch spread. Thinking the tightening screws helped, I adjusted 6 clicks down. Second group - all over the map. Also noticed something after the first shot of the second group - I bumped the barrel with my left thumb and damn it was hot. Like my thumb is still a touch tender where it touched the barrel hot 30 minutes later.

Does that provide any clarity? The first day I shot I did shoot a group at 50 to make sure the scope was on paper after boresighting, and it was tight. Then I went to 100 and had the afore mentioned problems. I'm starting to wonder if the barrel starts wandering as it heats up as you said Alberta.

Either way, I don't have more time to mess with it prior to opening of deer season Saturday, so I think it's going to stay home and the 270 short mag will hit the woods with me. If I get time next week, I'll go back to the range and play with it some more, but I suspect it will be a spring project to work on the rifle some more.

Edit: Rifle appears to be a 99F (featherweight) due to the thicker barrel section by the rear sight.

Almost all Savage rifles will respong to glass bedding..run a bead around the butt stock and glass the forend to center bore being sure to glass the orfice to the action...I have glassed probably 50 to 75 99s that way and the normally shoot and inch to inch and a half at 100..

Sometimes screw tensions properly adjusted on the forend will improve accuracy in a 99..

If its a 99F in .308 it should have a very light barrel with a dog know for the rear sight and it will have a short blunted forend, brass rotor, and real checkering, not impressed..Savage made a number of FWT rifles but the 99F in .308 caliber was made in the 1950s and early 60s as I recall and was argueably the best of all 99s IMO..