Has anyone shot or used this custom chopped Winchester rifle?

octave
I assume you are refering to the "gun" that Josh Randall carried on the TV show "Wanted Dead or Alive".
It was a cutdown 1892 Winchester in 44-40.
However he carried 45/70 ammo in his belt for a more dramatic effect.
Such a cut down rifle would be illegal in the US.

Yes thats the one I was talking about, I came across this site www.jbcustoms.com and wondered if anyone had try this rifle.

WWG makes NFA "sawed off rifles" out of leverguns too http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/bushwacker.html

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Such a cut down rifle would be illegal in the US.

Wrong. "Such a rifle" could be LEGALLY registered with tax paid under the National Firearms Act of 1934. If you'd like to know how, please ASK questions vice posting an incorrect assumption.

I am very familiar with NFA weapons laws. It is very hard to get any chief, sheriff, etc to "sign the papers" in most cities, even for a short bbled rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I am very familiar with NFA weapons laws. It is very hard to get any chief, sheriff, etc to "sign the papers" in most cities, even for a short bbled rifle.

Wrong again. It is not "hard" to get CLEO signoffs in "most" cities. And even in the event that it is, it's a small matter to form a corporation and bypass that requirement.

Really, ASK questions and don't post your silly assumptions.

For someone who claims to be "very familiar with NFA weapons laws," you sure are posting a lot of crap. That's flat out WRONG.

I know guys that have been trying to get NFA paperwork signed around here for years.

Several years ago there was a "movement" to try and require the "locals" to do the background check. I even met with some of the state reps on the matter trying to get some legislation, on the matter. Then we tried to get the background check "moved" to the Feds, to be submitted with the NFA paperwork.
All to no avail.
Back then the thing to do was to become a Class III dealer, buy anything you might want then quit being a dealer thus signing all your Class III stuff over to yourself on a Form 4473.

Your original NFA paperwork serves as you "instrument of proof".

As a bouus you did not have to pay the $200 on each transfer.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I know guys that have been trying to get NFA paperwork signed around here for years.

Several years ago there was a "movement" to try and require the "locals" to do the background check. I even met with some of the state reps on the matter trying to get some legislation, on the matter. Then we tried to get the background check "moved" to the Feds, to be submitted with the NFA paperwork.
All to no avail.
Back then the thing to do was to become a Class III dealer, buy anything you might want then quit being a dealer thus signing all your Class III stuff over to yourself on a Form 4473.

Your original NFA paperwork serves as you "instrument of proof".

As a bouus you did not have to pay the $200 on each transfer.

Wrong again.

Why are you constantly posting this blatantly FALSE BS?????

First you made the statement that "Such a cut down rifle would be illegal in the US" and you were proven wrong.

Next you posted the nonsense of "It is very hard to get any chief, sheriff, etc to "sign the papers" in most cities, even for a short bbled rifle" and were also proven wrong.

Now you post "I know guys that have been trying to get NFA paperwork signed around here for years," which doesn't exactly speak of "most cities," does it?

Jesus H. Christ, if a signoff can't be obtained the next solution is to form a corporation. This was also posted.

Then there's the matter of this nonsense:

"Back then the thing to do was to become a Class III dealer, buy anything you might want then quit being a dealer thus signing all your Class III stuff over to yourself on a Form 4473.

Your original NFA paperwork serves as you 'instrument of proof'.

As a bouus you did not have to pay the $200 on each transfer."

That's the biggest load of BS I've heard all week. You claim to be "very familiar with NFA weapons laws," yet you're advising people to avoid paying the taxes on NFA weapons. Brilliant plan.

I'm not even going to get into the BS you posted concerning the background check. Your perception is -- AT BEST -- LAUGHABLE.

Really, there's no reason for you to post this nonsense. It's patently OBVIOUS that you DON'T KNOW SQUAT about NFA, nor do you have anything useful to pass along to anyone who might be interested in legally obtaining an NFA weapon.

Just give it up.

You may be lucky enough to live in an area where you can get you background paper work signed but not down here.

I know a few single guys that moved to a nearby city or a different county so they could get there paperwork signed.
I will admit I have not done any NFA astuff in several years... However, in the past, I have been to many NFA shoots where there might be @ 30 people.... 20+ were dealers because the local officials would not sign the paperwork.

Ask a NFA dealer what happens when he "gives up his license".

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
You may be lucky enough to live in an area where you can get you background paper work signed but not down here.

AS PREVIOUSLY STATED, A CORPORATION CAN BE FORMED FOR THE PURPOSES OF OBTAINING AN NFA TRANSFER. CORPORATE TRANSFERS DO NOT REQUIRE CLEO SIGNOFFS.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I will admit I have not done any NFA astuff in several years...

Just be honest, you haven't done ANY NFA "stuff." The current iteration of the process has been in place since the '68 GCA.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
However, in the past, I have been to many NFA shoots where there might be @ 30 people.... 20+ were dealers because the local officials would not sign the paperwork.

Bullshit. Give me some names, sport.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Ask a NFA dealer what happens when he "gives up his license".

Are you asking because you admit you're in over your head on this subject?

Here is something else that will rile your feathers...

Seems there was a shooting range that rented guns for people to shoot on premises.

They descided to rent some full-autos.

The ATF showed up and threatened all with arrest as they deemed the handing of a full-auto to a person who was not the owner as a TRANSFER. Making poth parties subject to arrest.
The owner even chained the FA's to the shooting bench, but still no deal with the ATF.

It took a while to get that local "ruling" overturned.

There is evidently a lot of things that have gone on the NFA world you have no knowledge of.


Dealer to dealer transfers do not require a LEO sign off either.

What are the travel rules for a corp. vs a dealer??? IE what if you want to take your NFA weapon out of town, or out of state???
Dealer is the best way to go.

As to the Mares Leg being Illegal, technically I am correct as the Texas Penal Code classifies it as an Illegal Weapon.

It is a Defense to Prosecution that you posses it pursuant to having the proper Federal paperwork.

Mmmm... Defense to Prosecution.... does that mean you cannot be arrested... or taken onto custody [arrested] and later allowed to go free, when the DA drops charges after you have proved the "prusuant" part.

There is a lot of "Grey" area when it comes to NFA.

Also once upon a time there was a problem between the ATF and the IRS. An individual paid his $200 dollar transfer tax to the IRS. Tax Laws did not allow the ATF to access that info. The left hand could not tell the right hand what had been done [ie paid].

Ever flown commercial airline with a Machine Gun???, especially post 911???

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Here is something else that will rile your feathers...

Seems there was a shooting range that rented guns for people to shoot on premises.

They descided to rent some full-autos.

The ATF showed up and threatened all with arrest as they deemed the handing of a full-auto to a person who was not the owner as a TRANSFER. Making poth parties subject to arrest.
The owner even chained the FA's to the shooting bench, but still no deal with the ATF.

It took a while to get that local "ruling" overturned.

Post up some names and dates, sport. Otherwise your little "story" is looking more and more like BS.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
There is evidently a lot of things that have gone on the NFA world you have no knowledge of.

Yeah, that's why I pointed out that just owning an SBR was illegal. Oh wait, that was you.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Dealer to dealer transfers do not require a LEO sign off either.

OH NO!!!!! MR. EINSTEIN JUST POSTED A RIGHT ANSWER. For a change. No shit, Captain Obvious. Dealers are covered under their S.O.T. For bonus points, tell us what "S.O.T." stands for, smart guy.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
What are the travel rules for a corp. vs a dealer??? IE what if you want to take your NFA weapon out of town, or out of state???
Dealer is the best way to go.

Someone who's supposed to know their shit on NFA ought to know this. So what's up? You don't know about or have the aptitude to file a 5320.20? Doesn't cost anything. Then again, an S.O.T. alone will cost a minimum of $500 a year. Yeah, brilliant idea.

First you made the claim that mere ownership of an SBR is illegal. You got called out and backed down.

Next you claimed that signoffs were impossible to get in "most" cities. You got called out and backed down. (Maybe your definition of "most" is one of very flexible proportions.)

You then advocated tax evasion on NFA weapons. You got called out and backed down.

You claimed to have been at several NFA shoots. You got called out and now you're backing down.

You're either:

a) Full of shit.

b) A liar.

c) All of the above.


Just give it up. You keep digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
As to the Mares Leg being Illegal, technically I am correct as the Texas Penal Code classifies it as an Illegal Weapon.

As usual, WRONG. As long as it's in the NFA registry and the tax has been paid, it's perfectly legal.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
It is a Defense to Prosecution that you posses it pursuant to having the proper Federal paperwork.

Mmmm... Defense to Prosecution.... does that mean you cannot be arrested... or taken onto custody [arrested] and later allowed to go free, when the DA drops charges after you have proved the "prusuant" part.

So exactly what is your legal background?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
There is a lot of "Grey" area when it comes to NFA.

Wrong. Have the taxes been paid to the federal government on the weapon? A yes or no, please. Pretty damned straight forward to me.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Also once upon a time there was a problem between the ATF and the IRS. An individual paid his $200 dollar transfer tax to the IRS. Tax Laws did not allow the ATF to access that info. The left hand could not tell the right hand what had been done [ie paid].

Complete and utter BS. Prior to the '68 GCA, the BATFE didn't exist. After the '68 GCA went into effect, NFA tax checks were sent directly to the BATFE; i.e. your story just went up in smoke.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Ever flown commercial airline with a Machine Gun???, especially post 911???

Yes. But what does that have to do with this thread?

Take a chill pill.
I have just been trying to relate some stuff that has happened in the NFA "World" that many do not know about.

No need to cuss me or have a hissy fit. All the above actually happened.

I will tell you another:

A local Class III Dealer got into a contest with the ATF.
They were doing many harrasement inspections being picky with paper work and a general pain in his rear. He did not renew his license...
They came "over" for a check...
He sent them packing, as since he did not have a License, they had no right to "inspect" him.
They "battled" back and force for a while...
Finally the ATF "issued" him a valid Class III Dealers license, and showed up at his door with his "valid" license demanding an inspection...

He and his lawers and "they" and their legal unit finally got everything worked out, and he continued in business without the harrasement.


There is no Grey In NFA Mmmmm....

I have been personally called to the scene where two Class III dealers were stopped by the Police with NFA guns in their vehicle.
Both were handcuffed in the back of the police "cruiser" when I arrived on scene. One was a dealer that knew me, on the way to a Gun Show, and asked the Police to call me before they put him in Jail. Fortunately one of the Officers new me too.

In the other case, a private citizen with Class III guns did not have his paperwork with him . One of the Supervisors called to the scene knew me, gave me a call and requested that I respond.

In both cases I was able to prevent that "Machine Gun Man" from going to Jail.

On printed paper things are black and white, in the real world there are lots of shades of grey.

You seem highly exciteable... maybe you should not have guns, especially NFA guns.


I seem to remember writing checks to the IRS???

octave
Sorry to have caused your thread to be hijacked.

Just Some Guy is correct in the fact if you will go through the paperwork and your local law enforcement has a Chief, High Sheriff, etc that will sign off on the background check, and the ATF approves, you can get a Mares Leg.

I should have stated such in my first post... however here it has been almost impossible to get any NFA paperwork through local LEO, that that affected my first post.

Just Some Guy

I do not want to hurt your feelings, ruffle your feathers, or start a Hatfield and McCoy feud.

However, I have been involved in quite a bit of "NFA stuff", much of it involving the enforcement, regulatory, and political aspects
of the rules and regs and how they are interpreted, locally and nationally.

As, I have stated this was a while back, but you still cannot get "paperwork" signed here.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Take a chill pill.
I have just been trying to relate some stuff that has happened in the NFA "World" that many do not know about.

No need to cuss me or have a hissy fit. All the above actually happened.

Let's have some names, big guy. If your "stories" have any truth to them, this won't be a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I will tell you another:

A local Class III Dealer got into a contest with the ATF.
They were doing many harrasement inspections being picky with paper work and a general pain in his rear. He did not renew his license...
They came "over" for a check...
He sent them packing, as since he did not have a License, they had no right to "inspect" him.
They "battled" back and force for a while...
Finally the ATF "issued" him a valid Class III Dealers license, and showed up at his door with his "valid" license demanding an inspection...

He and his lawers and "they" and their legal unit finally got everything worked out, and he continued in business without the harrasement.

Gee, since there is no such thing as a Class III dealer's "license," but a TAX STAMP that is paid for in addition, your latest "story" just got officially WEAK. Let's have a name, sport. Who was the dealer?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
There is no Grey In NFA Mmmmm....

I have been personally called to the scene where two Class III dealers were stopped by the Police with NFA guns in their vehicle.
Both were handcuffed in the back of the police "cruiser" when I arrived on scene. One was a dealer that knew me, on the way to a Gun Show, and asked the Police to call me before they put him in Jail. Fortunately one of the Officers new me too.

In the other case, a private citizen with Class III guns did not have his paperwork with him . One of the Supervisors called to the scene knew me, gave me a call and requested that I respond.

In both cases I was able to prevent that "Machine Gun Man" from going to Jail.

Bullshit. Let's have some names to verify this crap.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
On printed paper things are black and white, in the real world there are lots of shades of grey.

Is it "grey?" Or is it "gray?" At any rate, the NFA is pretty straight forward. Since you're unfamiliar with it, it's a mystery to you.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I seem to remember writing checks to the IRS???

Not for NFA transfers, smart guy. Just another give away to your lies.


So who are some of these dealers who can verify your "stories?" I've asked you over and over for some names, but you keep dodging that. Hard to keep your lies straight?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
here it has been almost impossible to get any NFA paperwork through local LEO, that that affected my first post.

AND AS PREVIOUSLY STATED, YOU CAN GET A CORPORATE TRANSFER OF AN NFA WEAPON TO BYPASS THE CLEO SIGNOFF.

Exactly how dense are you????? Signoff or no signoff is no problem.

Oh, and your first post began by stating that "Such a cut down rifle would be illegal in the US." I don't see anywhere in that statement any allusion to the perceived "difficulty" in getting an NFA signoff.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
However, I have been involved in quite a bit of "NFA stuff", much of it involving the enforcement, regulatory, and political aspects
of the rules and regs and how they are interpreted, locally and nationally.

Was this in between attending Star Trek conventions?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
As, I have stated this was a while back, but you still cannot get "paperwork" signed here.

AS I HAVE STATED -- A WHILE BACK -- OVER AND OVER -- THIS IS NOT A FACTOR IN CORPORATE NFA TRANSFERS.

http://www.serbu.com/nfainfo.htm

Still waiting for some names from N E 450 No2. He must be having trouble keeping his lies together.

I'll never understand what possesses people to comment on things they don't understand. You may know a little about African hunting and double rifles (and Blasers), but you're definitely out of your element here. Must be the lingering arrogance from your PD days.

I don't want to get in the middle of a pissing match, but I have some information on this gun. Some were made a few years back from shortened 92 rifles. They were listed as cut-down rifles and had to have all the government OK's to own. From memory, they were about $3,000 or a little more.

Much more recently, a cheaper version was made available and was NOT listed as a cut-down rifle. Someone got some clone 92 actions BEFORE they were assembled as rifles. When assembled, this made them heavy, awkward, but neat looking handguns rather than cut-down rifles. No FBI or any of the other stuff is needed to own them -- just whatever handguns require where ever you live. The cost was about half of the earlier version.

I talked to the person selling the second one. Did not buy, but thought about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Harry O:
I don't want to get in the middle of a pissing match, but I have some information on this gun. Some were made a few years back from shortened 92 rifles. They were listed as cut-down rifles and had to have all the government OK's to own. From memory, they were about $3,000 or a little more.

Much more recently, a cheaper version was made available and was NOT listed as a cut-down rifle. Someone got some clone 92 actions BEFORE they were assembled as rifles. When assembled, this made them heavy, awkward, but neat looking handguns rather than cut-down rifles. No FBI or any of the other stuff is needed to own them -- just whatever handguns require where ever you live. The cost was about half of the earlier version.

I talked to the person selling the second one. Did not buy, but thought about it.

Yes, legal pistols can be assembled from virgin receivers which haven't had buttstocks previously assembled to them. However, the argument has been over the legality of NFA weapons.

450 N E No2 seems to have appointed himself an "expert" when he has ZERO experience in this area.

JSG
My checks were for dealer "fees" not individual transfers. Since you seem to know the rules as printed on paper, but have little actual experience in the "field", AND WANT TO CUSS ME AND CALL ME NAMES, I SUGGEST YOU SEEK COUNSELING.
Some of the people on AR know me and know a little about my history. I have actually had an "audience" with a State Governor, and three different sitting Presidents of the USA, about firearms laws, including NFA and lastly about the sunset of the assault rifle bill.

But you are the MAN.

I am done here.

PS I suggest YOU try to talk to the next President.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
JSG
My checks were for dealer "fees" not individual transfers. Since you seem to know the rules as printed on paper, but have little actual experience in the "field", AND WANT TO CUSS ME AND CALL ME NAMES, I SUGGEST YOU SEEK COUNSELING.
Some of the people on AR know me and know a little about my history. I have actually had an "audience" with a State Governor, and three different sitting Presidents of the USA, about firearms laws, including NFA and lastly about the sunset of the assault rifle bill.

But you are the MAN.

I am done here.

PS I suggest YOU try to talk to the next President.

You just don't know when to quit lying. One lie begats another. Your arrogance is unbecoming -- ESPECIALLY FOR A COP. (Even a retired one.) Notice no one has come to your defense.

Let's have some names of these dealers, big boy. You keep dancing around that. The NFA community is small and this is your chance to back up the BS you've posted. If you were an S.O.T., people will know you. Then again, it's likely to back up what I've posted.

Just admit you're WRONG and you never really had any clue about this subject. Come on, stud, swallow that pride.

I'm new here so I don't want to ruffle any feathers. You CAN own a Mares Leg and here's some info for you:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976647990.htm

http://www.jbcustom.com/marespec.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Ammohouse:
I'm new here so I don't want to ruffle any feathers. You CAN own a Mares Leg and here's some info for you:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976647990.htm

http://www.jbcustom.com/marespec.htm

Of course you can own one. N E 450 No2 is just a self-important ASSHOLE who can't admit he's wrong. Nor can he admit that he NEVER had anything of value to add to the discussion.

Cool. I just wish I had enough $$$$ to get one. Probably wouldn't shoot it much but it sure would be cool!

quote:

Originally posted by Ammohouse:
Cool. I just wish I had enough $$$$ to get one. Probably wouldn't shoot it much but it sure would be cool!

I think the prices listed are WAY high. Considering the prices of the Brazilian/Italian/Spanish '92 copies -- and what an S.O.T. charges for labor --, I don't see any reason why an SBR couldn't be made for $1200 or less including the tax stamp.

If you're capable of performing the work yourself, one could be made on a BATFE Form 1 ($200 tax stamp) for the cost of the host rifle and the stamp.

Here's a good board to ask this question: http://subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi

I'd like to see N E 450 No2 post this ignorant BS over there. Fireworks are always fun to watch and most of the people aren't near as kind as me at suffering fools gladly or tolerating self-important ASSHOLES.

I do have registered NFA weapons, and read Subguns.com forums.

The above name calling is foolish and counter productive.

N E 450 No2 was trying to point out that an SBR transfer may not be easy when Just Some Guy went ballistic for little reason. Shame on him!

Both contributors to the cat fight have some information of real value. CLEO sign-off can be tough to get. Formation of a Corportation can be done to avoid the problem in some places if the state or local law does not block a transfer. State and local law trumps the acquisition process and can zing any hope.

For thoes of you have have them where did you get your holsters made?

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
N E 450 No2 was trying to point out that an SBR transfer may not be easy when Just Some Guy went ballistic for little reason.

Uh, no. Read his first post where he states mere ownership is illegal in the U.S. Period. Go ahead, read it. Now tell me how smart you think he is and how much value his post was. Take your time.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Both contributors to the cat fight have some information of real value. CLEO sign-off can be tough to get. Formation of a Corportation can be done to avoid the problem in some places if the state or local law does not block a transfer. State and local law trumps the acquisition process and can zing any hope.

If possession of NFA weapons is not prohibited by law, then formation of a corporation can be used to bypass the CLEO requirement. Period. What's so tough to understand about that?

Go ahead, show me when and where N E 450 No2 contributed something of value to this discussion. Was it when he opined that it was difficult to obtain a signoff in "most cities?" (Not a problem in 76 of Oklahoma's 77 counties.) Was it when he advocated tax evasion? Was it when he stated that most NFA owners were dealers? All really "BRILLIANT" statements. Take your time.

N E 450 No2's problem is he's a moron and doesn't realize it.