I have a new 1886 converted by Doug Turnbull to 50-110. Bought it awhile back on Gunbroker in a weak moment. Now that I am retired, it’s time to start playing with it.
Not a lot of smokeless data out there. Other than 65gr 3031 under a Barnes 450, not much I can find. I see articles claiming 6000 ft lb loads, but no loading data.
Anyone out there that’s played with stout loads for this cartridge?

73-77 grains of VV N530 ( 2000fps +)for 450 grain CEB solid.

Yesterday I shot my 50-100-450 over a Lab Radar and was a bit over 1600 fps with 40 grains of IMR 4198 and a 450 grains bullet. Same bullet with 100 grains of 3F Swiss was about 100 fps slower. That's what it was meant to shoot.

I see You Tube videos of some clown making his repro '86 loaded way up. Why? There is no reason for this other than ego. If one needs a bigger rifle, buy one. An 1886 express rifle with the 110 grains bullet of 300 grains or the 100 grains charge and 450 grains bullet does exactly what it was made for. Back then if a fella wanted a bigger hammmer, he bought an 8 or a 4-bore.

Sorry guys, but I tried and can be of no help. Likely because I do not understand your performance objectives.

With my Miroku Winchester 1886 .45-90 our bullet testing team got 300 grain bullets up to 2600 fps; MV and could have gone to 2800 fps.

We took NF and Punch 450 grain solid bullets up to 2150 fps MV and these easily took ele and Cape Buff.

My VV load manual says VV N530 will take a .458 Win Mag 500 grain bullet to 2149 fps MV.

All above loads with safe pressures .

My performance objective is to get a bullet of 400-500 grams be north of 2000fps. Although I probably won’t use it as such, a lever action DG rifle tickles me.
I hear what you are saying, Cal, but these Mirokus ain’t your grampas 1886. Just want to see what it can be made to do safely.

those big bores kill my penetration and cross section of bullet, a 100 or so feet of velocity has no obvious increase in killing power. I came to this conclusion using double rifles on buffalo, Hippo, and other large and small animals. Also with the 86s, I always felt the 45-90 performed better than the 45-70 but that just may have been the imagination of a very young boy and his bragging rights with his 45-90!!

Had the same experience with the 93x62 and my 375 H&H, I simply could not see any difference in performance between the two knowing there must be?? maybe not!

Most African professionals want to shoot 300 gr. bullets at 2400 in their 375s as the slower bullet performs better than the maxed out 2600 plus fps the 375 is capable of..I agree with that 100%, for several reasons..

I hope I havn't sent the high vel crowd into convulsions, all I can say is get over it!

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
My performance objective is to get a bullet of 400-500 grams be north of 2000fps. Although I probably won’t use it as such, a lever action DG rifle tickles me.
I hear what you are saying, Cal, but these Mirokus ain’t your grampas 1886. Just want to see what it can be made to do safely.

I have the 50-110 on my bucket list,I have reloaded quite a bit for a 450 Alaskan & the 475 Turnbull,in both of these rifles I have loads going upper 1900"s with a 500 gr Woodleigh's shaved down to flat nose,very accurate & no fuss at all.

I agree with Ray about velocity with .500 and .577 bullet. So far, I have used moderate velocities with complete success on cape buffalo at close range.

- 50-110 ( Mine is actually a 50-110 with custom chambered to true .500 cal.) 410 grain CEB Raptor bullet at 1940 fps. All DRT.
- 577 NE , 700 grain Peregrine BushMaster bullet at 1700 fps. DRT.

The bullet design/construction is the main factor in those big bores, not the velocity, I think.

There is a chapter on the 50-110 in the book Big Bore Rifles. It was published in the 80's. Gives many loads with a selection of bullets and weights. You might find it in a local library or used book site.

I would feel very comfortable with a good flat nose solid or an old Woodleigh RN in a 50-110 on even a raging hippo or buffalo. Its only possible down side is recoil recovery is slow, if thats an actual problem, it could be under some condition IMO..but rare indeed..

Marty,
I went through a few of my reference books(0ldest By Phillip Sharpe dated back to 1906) and found a few 50-110 loads for 300 grain bullets and the Express load seems to be with 3031 powder to 2225 fps. Likely good for most North American game.
I found no "heavy" loads for African game.

It may be time for you to search the Internet for "50-110 Express loads".

Good luck and have fun!

This is for my 50-110. (Actually a 50-110 Win. with custom chamber to true .500 cal.)
TC Encore 24 inch barrel.
450gr. CEB Solid, VV N530, 2,000.fps.
410gr. CEB Raptor, VV N530, 2,100 fps.
375gr. CEB Solid, VV N530, 2,200 fps.
335gr. CEB Raptor VV N530, 2,300 fps.

Brian,
It is good to see another user of VV powders.
I have good results with N133 in my .405 WCF heavy loads and with 350 and 400 grain loads for 45-70.

CR, Thanks. I corrected a typo on my post. All loads are N530.

I have used N133 in my grandsons 30-30 single shot and like it. I didn't think about it for 45-70. Cool.

I have read somewhere that the N500 series of VV powders have a chemical coating that 'Smoothes" the peak out a bit on the pressure curve. ( I think I have that right?) That is why I have used it in my relatively weak single shot, break-open big bores. But I have been informed recently that the coating has a shelf life. ( I sometimes store a loaded big bore cartridge for a couple of years.) Have you heard anything about this?

Also, I read that Reloder 17 has a similar coating (Saturating the powder) that remains effective forever so I thought that I should switch to it for my 577NE. What do you think?

Thanks again for the post.

Brian

Per the VV manual , many of their powders have coatings and this is explained in their 4th edition manual - you might find the book interesting and of value.

I have not heard or read anything about VV powder degrading with time if kept in a proper container. If I do, I will let you know.
I also m not aware of other powders with smooth pressure traces, but I am not loading other powders at this time.

Thanks for the good news crshelton, I must get that manual. Good idea. I have not bought a reloading manual for years. brian

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
I have a new 1886 converted by Doug Turnbull to 50-110. Bought it awhile back on Gunbroker in a weak moment. Now that I am retired, it’s time to start playing with it.
Not a lot of smokeless data out there. Other than 65gr 3031 under a Barnes 450, not much I can find. I see articles claiming 6000 ft lb loads, but no loading data.
Anyone out there that’s played with stout loads for this cartridge?

Hi Marty,

If I can get there, I'm taking my Turnbull .50-110 to South Africa in about 3 weeks on a free range buffalo hunt outside of Kruger. I'm taking 2 loads; a 450 grain A-Frame load and a 400 grain Cutting Edge solid designed for lever guns. (The CEB bullet worked great on an Alaska moose last Fall from my .50 Alaskan by the way).

Using a case full of RL15 (lit by Fed 215 primers) I'm getting a tad over 2000 FPS in my 26" barrel with both bullet loads; the heavier A Frames are actually a little faster. Maybe because they are .509" in diameter vs. the .510 diameter CEB's?

My goal was to develop a load that would be legal for dangerous game in Zimbabwe. A 450 grain bullet at 2000 FPS meets this requirement. I started with 75 grains of RL15 and worked my way up slowly until I got there. Be Safe!

Hope this helps,

DJH

Marty, I have not used RL 15, but x-caliber's loads seem realistic to me. Also, both of his bullets are perfect as far as I am concerned. Brian

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
I have a new 1886 converted by Doug Turnbull to 50-110. Bought it awhile back on Gunbroker in a weak moment. Now that I am retired, it’s time to start playing with it.
Not a lot of smokeless data out there. Other than 65gr 3031 under a Barnes 450, not much I can find. I see articles claiming 6000 ft lb loads, but no loading data.
Anyone out there that’s played with stout loads for this cartridge?

Hi Marty,

If I can get there, I'm taking my Turnbull .50-110 to South Africa in about 3 weeks on a free range buffalo hunt outside of Kruger. I'm taking 2 loads; a 450 grain A-Frame load and a 400 grain Cutting Edge solid designed for lever guns. (The CEB bullet worked great on an Alaska moose last Fall from my .50 Alaskan by the way).

Using a case full of RL15 (lit by Fed 215 primers) I'm getting a tad over 2000 FPS in my 26" barrel with both bullet loads; the heavier A Frames are actually a little faster. Maybe because they are .509" in diameter vs. the .510 diameter CEB's?

My goal was to develop a load that would be legal for dangerous game in Zimbabwe. A 450 grain bullet at 2000 FPS meets this requirement. I started with 75 grains of RL15 and worked my way up slowly until I got there. Be Safe!

Hope this helps,

DJH

Would love to see pics of your hunt and the rifle. I have a 50-95 1876, a 50-100-450 1886, and a 405 1895 I would like to bring to Africa someday. As I write this I just finished a free range hunt on a huge ranch north of Thabazimbi and took an average buffalo at 90 yards, a very big roan at 55 yards, and an excellent buffalo at about 70 yards with an old (1885) 4-bore weighing 23 pounds (24 when loaded).
Cal

Cal,
A buffalo at 70 yds with a 4-bore! I sure would have liked to have been there.

What weight of bullet?
Is 70 yds a long shot for 4-bore? Seems like a long shot to me.

1400 grain ball @ 1650 fps with 120 grains of Blue Dot. Second buff was hit hard at 85 yards and after he stopped staggering he was down with another shot at 95 yards. Over a rest, of course--at my age I can't hold up a 24-pound rifle any longer. My roan was killed with a single shot at 55 yards. I will post photos upon my return home.

Cal,
Hell man! That is about the same velocity that I fire a 700 gr bullet.
Very impressive! I am going to drag that story out every time I get a chance.
Thanks for the post. I look forward to seeing the pictures. You know I am interested in bullets so I hope you have a photo of 1400 gr ball/bulletas well
Brian

quote:

As I write this I just finished a free range hunt on a huge ranch north of Thabazimbi and took an average buffalo at 90 yards, a very big roan at 55 yards, and an excellent buffalo at about 70 yards with an old (1885) 4-bore weighing 23 pounds (24 when loaded).

Henry could not have done better.

I recently returned from a buffalo hunt on the Klaserie Nature Preserve, a free-range area adjacent to Kruger, and I couldn't be happier with the performance of the Turnbull 50-110. My first shot was around 40-50 yards with a 400 grain Cutting Edge lever gun safari solid and he dropped in his tracks. My PH and I swung around to the right and I put a follow up 450 grain A Frame and another 400 grain solid in him for insurance.

Beautiful rifle.

Thank you crshelton, I’m currently working with Turnbull on a 45-90 project. Please expect a PM from me soon!

Looking forward to it.

My .45-90 TD : Not pretty outside, but well broken in on the inside :

Congratulations on the buffalo. Beautiful rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
CR, Thanks. I corrected a typo on my post. All loads are N530.

I have used N133 in my grandsons 30-30 single shot and like it. I didn't think about it for 45-70. Cool.

I have read somewhere that the N500 series of VV powders have a chemical coating that 'Smoothes" the peak out a bit on the pressure curve. ( I think I have that right?) That is why I have used it in my relatively weak single shot, break-open big bores. But I have been informed recently that the coating has a shelf life. ( I sometimes store a loaded big bore cartridge for a couple of years.) Have you heard anything about this?

Also, I read that Reloder 17 has a similar coating (Saturating the powder) that remains effective forever so I thought that I should switch to it for my 577NE. What do you think?

Thanks again for the post.

Brian

Nah, it's just 15% nitroglycerine, no pixie dust.

Various calibers have "majic velocity perimiters" so to speak...Most big bores work perfect at 2150fps, not saying 2400 isn't better, but its validity has been questioned in the past..

My experience is big bores under 50 caliber perform best at 2400 fps, with proper bullet construction, but no complaints against 2100 fps..

so what,s the consenses on the AR board??

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
I have a new 1886 converted by Doug Turnbull to 50-110. Bought it awhile back on Gunbroker in a weak moment. Now that I am retired, it’s time to start playing with it.
Not a lot of smokeless data out there. Other than 65gr 3031 under a Barnes 450, not much I can find. I see articles claiming 6000 ft lb loads, but no loading data.
Anyone out there that’s played with stout loads for this cartridge?

Does anyone know the rate of twist that is being used in these .50 caliber rifles? As I understand it, the original Winchester .50-100-450 used a 1 in 54 twist and the .50-110-300 used a 1 in 60 twist.

You are right; however, realize that when these guys use the old caliber designations, that is not in any way what they mean, nor is there any inten, to use the original loadings. These are modern higher pressure, smokeless powder rounds, now.
The twist rates on the new rifles is 20 for the 45-70, and I am sure that Turnbull uses a fast twist barrel on his conversions to .50.
Bottom line is that these cartridges are nothing like the originals in performance.

Marty,

I have loaded up some stout loads but have not tested them yet. I am not recommending them just because I have not tested them yet. I will use them in my 50-110 TC Encore, 24" barrel, which is actually a 50-110 Win with a custom chamber - 50-110 Win necked down to true .500 so I can use my favourite CEB 500 bullets. So, I call it the 500-110.

500-110/ 450gr CEB solid/ 73 grains of Vit. N530.
I am looking for 2000 fps.

500-110/ 410gr CEB Raptor/ 75 grains of Vit. N530.
I am looking for 2150 fps.

These are near max loads from QuickLoad reloading Program.
You should start a bit lower.

I have killed three cape buffalo with a slower load (410gr CEB Raptor/ 76 grains N540/ 1940 fps/ 22 inch barrel H&R single shot. All were double lung shot broadside and DRT kills.

CEB Solids and Raptors are "lever gun friendly".

Apparently the Viht. 500 series of powders , like some of the Reloder powder have more "gentle" pressure curve. ( The word gentle is the only term that I can think of right now. May be the wrong term to use?)
Just trying to be helpful, Cheers, Brian

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You are right; however, realize that when these guys use the old caliber designations, that is not in any way what they mean, nor is there any inten, to use the original loadings. These are modern higher pressure, smokeless powder rounds, now.
The twist rates on the new rifles is 20 for the 45-70, and I am sure that Turnbull uses a fast twist barrel on his conversions to .50.
Bottom line is that these cartridges are nothing like the originals in performance.

There were two phases to the original loading of the .50-110. The .50-110 and .50-100 straddled the black powder and smokeless powder era. Winchester came out with a high velocity load for the .50-110. The 300 grain bullet was driven to 2225 fps developing about 3300 foot pounds of energy. I would not push an original Model 1886 any higher than that. I realize modern rifles with modern powders (and faster twist rates) have improved those ballistics substantially. I'm skeptical about 6000 foot pounds but I've been wrong before.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You are right; however, realize that when these guys use the old caliber designations, that is not in any way what they mean, nor is there any inten, to use the original loadings. These are modern higher pressure, smokeless powder rounds, now.
The twist rates on the new rifles is 20 for the 45-70, and I am sure that Turnbull uses a fast twist barrel on his conversions to .50.
Bottom line is that these cartridges are nothing like the originals in performance.

You are correct as usual. I asked Turnbull if I could have a twist that was correct for using 450 grain and 500 grain bullets and they said they already use it, I shoot 535 grain Woodleighs in mine and they shoot little groups.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You are right; however, realize that when these guys use the old caliber designations, that is not in any way what they mean, nor is there any inten, to use the original loadings. These are modern higher pressure, smokeless powder rounds, now.
The twist rates on the new rifles is 20 for the 45-70, and I am sure that Turnbull uses a fast twist barrel on his conversions to .50.
Bottom line is that these cartridges are nothing like the originals in performance.

You are correct as usual. I asked Turnbull if I could have a twist that was correct for using 450 grain and 500 grain bullets and they said they already use it, I shoot 535 grain Woodleighs in mine and they shoot little groups.

That is very cool. Quite an improvement over the original loadings. A lot of power in a lever rifle.