Ladies and Gentlemen:

I've read a whole bunch of information on the 35 Remington/444 Marlin/45-70 Govt. on this forum, but still have two questions.

I would like to buy a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington or 444 Marlin or 45-70 Govt. for brush shooting in Pennsylvania. I've wanted one since 1976, when I bought my Marlin 39A brand new, but never got around to it.

All of the Pennsylvania deer that I have shot were with a 243 Winchester. That worked fine; one shot kills for each deer.

But this is just for fun for whitetail deer and maybe a black bear.

I won't be taking it elk hunting or to Alaska or Africa.

So, what is your respective experience with these three rounds on deer and black bear?

What bullets worked the best for you?

Well, first off, if you listen to many who post here, none of the calibers will be sufficient to kill whitetail and black bear; you'll need at LEAST a .500 Nitro Express...

Now, on a practical note, all three cartridges will do just fine for the aforementioned species. I used to have a Marlin 336 in .35 Rem and killed a fair amount of deer with it, all one shot kills. Probably about the farthest shot was 100 yards.

I'm not real familiar with the .444. I've looked at it in the past and studied the ballistic charts and it just never turned me on enough to buy one. But I know a guy that does own one and I've never heard of him losing an animal.

I now own a Marlin 1895 XLR in .45/70 and love it. I've got it scoped (due to aging eyes) with an Alpen 4x scope and feel comfortable making shots out to 200 yards. I could probably stretch the range to 250 or so.

Any of the three cartridges will definitely work, and you could take it out west for elk, knowing it would do the job, especially the .45/70.

Of the three rounds, I would choose the .45/70. It has a lot to offer, and the Marlin 1895 is one heck of a nice shooting rifle. Now if you did get a .45/70, you could take it out west for elk, up to Alaska for bear or Africa for a wide variety of game. Then you'd have the best of all worlds.

For ammo, I've found that I can't improve on what Randy Garrett builds with his Hammerhead series of ammo. For whitetail/black bear, I've taken them with the 420 grain rounds. I own some 500 grain solids as well as the 540 grain super hard cast lead, but haven't felt "undergunned" with shooting critters with the 420s...

For deer the 35 Rem is plenty good or maybe rechamber to 356/358 Win for more pizzazz.

The 444M is plenty good for deer/black bear/elk/moose...just about any N.A. game as is...bigger bullet and more weight.

45-70/450M plenty good for ANY N.A. game...I would pick the 450M because it feeds smoother in a lever action...and again bigger bullet and more weight...factory or rebuilts.

You can rechamber the 450M to 450 Yukon and get even more slap from both ends.

I would stay with the 35Rem or rechambers for eastern hunting...going to the heavier cals starts taking the fun out of it because of the recoil...444M/45-70/450M's just knock the snot out of a lot of people...more for armchair hunting or macho talk than hunting or plinking, unless getting slapped around is your thing.

I have a 336 Marlin rebored to 356W(you can have your 35 Rem done the same or taken out to 375 W another great woods cartridge)...shooting 200-220 gr cast or jacketed bullets I wouldn't hesitate to take any N.A. game(excluding the brown bears's).

Lots of ways to go.

Just about ANY bullet in the heavier calibers is sufficient to do all the work you require...I like cast lead for the lower velocities up to about 2200fs, which covers most of the lever action projectiles.

Luck

45-70 with light weight bullets! It also is easy to load to varying power levels with cast bullets for cheap practice.

Rich
DRSS

Another vote for the .45-70! I have a Marlin 1895 guide gun. I've taken bear, hogs, and 7 head of african game with it. The ole girl never lets me down.

Mad Dog

I shoot a Marlin 1895XLR 45-70 with 300gr RCBS round nose flat point gas check Wheel Weight cast bullets 2000fps. They shoot better than the Jacketed bullets I have tried so far. I get a 3" group with the cast and larger with the jacketed.

Keep in mind the gun kicks like a mule and will scope cut if you get your eye to close. My youngest son has the scar to prove it.

Don't want to scare you off the 45-70 is a lot of fun to shoot.

I plan to put a Wild West Trigger on it to decrease and smooth out the trigger pull and a Magnum 1 3/8" Kick Eez pad to tame the recoil.

It tamed a 12ga O/U and I am sure it will do the job on the 45-70.

BTW I also want the 444 in the same rifle.

The 45-70 with 300 factory or equivalent ! That load is the same as the 100 year old Winchester load though I'm using the Win Partition load. And NO it doesn't 'kick like a mule' !!

I own all 3 of those calibers in lever guns,along with several others.
For a good deer/black bear gun in Pa. the 35 Rem in a 336 is pretty hard to beat with 200 gr loads.
I load mine with 180gr flat nose Speer over 32 grs of imr3031, with it I've flattened many a old ridge runner buck in northcentral Pa and a few black bears as well!
The 45/70 is a good performer as well in a 1895 with 300 gr bullets.
IMHO the 444 lacks when it comes to bullet selection, but with a good bullet meant to be loaded in a rifle vs a pistol bullet it is a proven performer.
Try to locate a Marlin 336D in 35 Rem, it is a clone of the 1895GG but in a smaller caliber. The D in 336D stands for Davidson's Gallery of Guns whom ordered a limited run of them (500). If you can locate one expect to pay $600 or more for it but you'll not be sorry you did! I bought mine new from Davidsons and it is a SWEEEEEET little rifle I wouldn't sell for $1000.

I have killed several deer with a 45/70 using the various 300gr bullets loaded to factory specs.

For black bear I would use the Winchester load with the 300gr Nosler Partition, or a 350gr SP from Cor Bon or Buffalo Bore, or a reload with the Hornady 350gr SP over @52 gr of IMR 3031.

All the Marlin 45/70's I have shot or seen shot have been very accurate.

Thank you all for your varied and interesting experience.

I shouldered a 1950's 336 SC in 30-30, and with the 20" barrel, it is a bit muzzle light.

Also, I shouldered a much newer 22" barrel 444 Marlin at Cabelas, definitely not muzzle light.

I'll make up my mind probably by this weekend.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Any of the 3 will fit your needs. The 35 will have the lightest recoil, the 444 will probably shoot the flattest and the 45/70 will have the most power. My 1951 336 in 35 remington and my 1972 1895 in 45/70.

quote:

For a good deer/black bear gun in Pa. the 35 Rem in a 336 is pretty hard to beat with 200 gr loads.

I good friend of mine has a Marlin 3365 in .35 Remington. It shoots 3/4" groups with Winchester 200gr round noses, and 1/2" or less with the Hornady Leveroution. In close timber it's sufficent for anything you mentioned, up to and including Elk.

All those are more than enough for what you wish o do. For pure style, available options, and a bit of historical interest...I chose the 45/70 in a Guide Gun.
LOVE IT..!!!

My only experience is with the 35, 45-70 and 450M. Only the 45-70 and 450M have taken Northern Whitetail and a dozen head of AF plains game.

Based on the larger availability of various .458 dia bullets available, go with the 45-70, 450M. I actually prefer the 450M due to stronger "v" shaped thread pattern joining the barrel to the receiver. This difference results in a SAMMI listed max chamber pressure for the 1895 45-70 of 28000 psi and the 450M max of 43000 psi. I fully understand there are a lot of guys who have been hand loading 45-70 well above the 28K level for years and that is entirely their prerogative and I have pushed some loads above that level myself. But I consistently load my 450 to 40K + and don't worry about blowing my supporting hand off.

I say that because if you ever find pictures of blown up 1895s the failures seem to all be centered around where the receiver/barrel join. I have never seen a photo of one where the bolt was blow out the back into the shooters face or the chamber exploded and a few were the barrel exploded due to an obstruction. The causes have usually been attributed to guys using small charges of pistol powders and accidentally double charging a round thus causing the over-pressure failure or, someone who was consistently using loads that where meant for bolt actions or modern falling blocks. At some point metal fatigue set in and the the action separated at the receiver/barrel connection.

The other thing I have noticed between the Marlin 1895s is that the 450M cartridges pass through the loading gate easier. May just be my guns or it could be due to the 450 having a smaller diameter without the 45-70 rim.

If you reload you will get spoiled reloading straight walled cases over a bottle neck case - easier to lube, much less worry about case stretching and neck trimming etc. I have some 45-70 plinking cases that I don't know anymore how many times they have been reloaded and all that has been done is an occasional trip through the tumbler.

I've got the 336 in 30/30 and 35. Had the 1895
in 45/70 long story why I don't anymore. Never shot or owned a 444.
Anyway you can't go wrong with either one.
200 grain core-lokts work great on whitetail.

Another vote for the 45-70,

I have the 1895 GG modified with Wild West trigger, one piece ejector and large loop lever, great combo.

Hornaday Factory Leverloution or Hand Loads
with the 350 gr North Fork flat point at 2200fps. (similar to Garretts load) These two will go
anywhere on the planet.

Good luck and good shooting.

Tetonka,
DRSS
Band of 45-70ers
Big Bore Bolt Trash

.35 Remington. It's accurate, mild recoil, and highly under rated for what it does. I've got both, 45-70 and .35 Rem. For what you're asking it to do, no need for the 45-70, unless you just enjoy shooting the big boomers. The deer I've taken with both calibers (3 with 45-70, 6 with .35 Rem) have been one shot kills, all with comparable results with respect to tracking; either none involved or enough blood on the ground for ANYONE to follow.

If you reload, then you might have the most fun with the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. It is a very handy, accurate, carbine. But factory ammo is limited and expensive. I'm mainly recommending the GG because of the handling characteristics - I like it much better than a standard 336 (I've owned both - kept the GG).

If you don't reload, then you might give consideration to the lowly 30-30, as ammo prices should be much cheaper than 35rem. The 20" 336 is a nice packing rifle - just don't lard it up with a scope. Put a Williams WRS peep on the rear and a Firesight on the front.

I believe the 444 is only available in the standard 22" barrel 1895 - not quite as handy as either the 336 or Guide Gun. IMO.

The 30-30 with peep will give you 200yd mpbr with off-the-shelf ammo. The Guide gun will give about 130-150yd mpbr depending on the ammo.

Nothing is more Pennsylvanian than the 35 rem, especially a Remington 141, but a Marlin will do.

I also used a Marlin 45-70 when I lived back in PA. There was a time back in the late 80s early 90s, before the guide guns and superhard cast bullets, when the 45-70 started becoming popular based on the 300g hollow point factory ammo. That load will anchor your deer or bear before they make it into the heavy laurel or slide down the wrong side of the ridge.

Never could understand...other than recoil sensitivity maybe...why someone would buy a heavy hitter like a 45 cal rifle, be it levergun or bolt rifle, then use light bullets.

I have rifles up to 50 cal...and shotguns(73 cal) and a 54 cal smokepole so I have my pick of shooters. I hardly ever reach for anything smaller in cal than my 338-06...and use bullets on the heavier side for the smaller calibers...160 gr in 7mm, 180-220 gr in 30 cals...all the smaller cals are for varmints.

I have a 458 American, basically a 450 M, and my favorite loads are a 435 gr Trueshot or 450 gr at 2050-2100fs...my 45-120 with 500-600 gr at velocities I won't mention and my 510 Makatak with 475 - 535 gr Beartooths up around 2500ft. My Marlin 356 Win likes 220 Speers at 2350-2400fs.

No bragging or nose rubbing, I respect the animals I shoot and want to dispatch them as quickly as possible...besides the meat from an animal that goes through a long process of dying just tastes yucky.

I think...too often...hunters are more intent on bragging rights for "getting my deer", than for anything else.

I have(had) a 336 Marlin 30-30 but sent it off to be rebored to 356 Win...the 35 Rem is a good woods rifle but the 356 is much better I think(please none of the usual arguments) and in hindsight I should have had the 375 Win done instead.

I like big bores and heavy bullets and I guarantee the bigger the bore and the heavier the bullet the more effective it is at nailing your game...as long as you put the bullet where it belongs, plus the larger the cal the bigger the exit hole and the quicker the bleed out.

I've heard all the stories about the animal getting away when shot with a 45-70...all I can say is BS...if you shoot the animal in the butt or gut or some other non-lethal place it don't matter WHAT you are shooting...it will posssibly get away.

My sage advice is pick the shooter YOU'RE most comfortable with, learn to shoot it well and forget all the peckerwaving that goes on on the forums.

Luck

Here is a great article that compares the Marlin 444, 45-70 and 450m. Sorry, but it doesn't specifically address the 35 Rem or the 336 Marlin actions.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

Lots of technogeek stuff but makes a very good reference point on how hot you decide to push the loads in your Marlins.

I was lucky to find an older Marlin 45-70 like the one pictured above by Buckeyshooter. It's a lot of fun. So far I have only worked up one load for it with a 300 grain Barnes TSX. Its fun to shoot. The purists will tell you only use iron sights but I have a 2 1/2 power Lyman scope on mine. Old Eyes don't see that tiny from sight very well. I have owned 30-30's but have not owned a 35. Even so I would stay with the 45-70. You can load it down for practice or load it up for game. I've not killed anything with it yet but I am hoping to kill the antlerless elk I have a tag for with it this winter. DW

Thanks again for all or your wonderful comments.

I'm getting closer.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

At one time I owned 4 marlins (.35, .444, 2 45/70s)at the same time. I now only have the .35. I only use it for close woods (under 100 yds)deer and hog. Can't tell you why I chose the .35 other than it felt like the right rifle when hunting those animals.

I sent you a PM.

Yeah, another 1985 45/70 user and loving it.
Interestingly I've handloaded my rifle from 1850fps to 2250fps with the 300 grain bullet from Sierra / Hornady and noticed scant difference in the field!!

Mind you I've only shot our medium game here which is mostly pigs to 200lbs and goats that at best would weigh half that.

Nowdays I tend to go somewhere between 2000 fps and 2100 mostly for trajectory reasons. My Marlin has the standard 22 inch barrel and I've got a William peep on mine.

Easily holds 2MOA with my standard loads and I've made shots out to 220 yards. Things certainly tip over when those 300 grain hollow points hit home.

Certainly recommend the 45/70 great cartridge.

I have both a Marlin in 444 and one in 45-70 and like them both I think you might have overlooked a cartridge that is really more suited for where you live and what you might hunt the 38-55, Marlin made one in their Cowboy rifles, and I understand it's great, I have an orginal 1893 in that caliber with a 30in barrel it's a dream to shoot very little recoil.

Dear Charcoal Burner:

I agree with you concerning the 38-55.

My Marlin lever action rifle hiding in some obscure guns shop hunt, starting this fall, will include a Marlin 1893, 1936, 93, 36 and maybe an early 336 in 32 Special, 35 Remington or 38-55.

Now if a really neat 444 or 45-70 from the 1970's shows up, well then, we'll see.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I have a 444 Marlin Outfitter and I wouldn't part with it for anything. Very good!

I have a 450 Marlin... and it works fine for 200+ lb hogs with 300g bullets.

I am now loading 400g just to see what it will do.


Also Horn has a 350g which was designed for the 450M...

I know you did not ask abiut the 450M but I wanted to put in a good word for it.


Failing the 450M I would go with the 45/70

Yale take some time here a lot of info http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/

they are all a good choice just personal preference.I went with a 44 and 444 to partner up with 44 mag pistol. if i was into 45lc I would have a 45/70.

I don't have experience with any of them but for PA deer/bear I would go with the Marlin 336 C or W in .35 or 30-30.Plenty enough power without the cost/recoil of the others.

have owned 336 Marlins in 219 Zipper, 35 Rem. and (currently) 45-70. They have all been reliable and easy to carry. My 45-70 has proven to be very enjoyable.....easy to hold and shoot, and VERY accurate with open sights. Negatives include (1) the trigger sucks, and (2) it is difficult to push cartridges into the magazine through the receiver port. At the end of the day.....I will keep it, and scope it and use it this Autumn on whitetails.

Thank you all for your continuing replies.

I've whittled it down to an 1893/1936/336 in 32 Special or a 1970's 336 in 444 Marlin. I already obtained a cherry Lyman 56 MB peep sight for one of the above rifles.

Just have to get the cash flow going in the next few weeks, and then find one.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Since I own a 336 SS LTD in .35 Rem, I have to comment. In retrospect, I wish I actually had gone with a .45-70. Not that there's anything actually wrong with the .35 Rem, it's just that I don't find the recoil of a 45-70 with standard factory loads to be particularly abusive at all. It can be loaded down to puff-ball levels or loaded up hot. It's a versatility question.

444 Marlin is dang near just as good - especially if you handload. 240gr. .429 bullets at 1600fps will do any deer in under 100 yards and are super light and easy to shoot.

At the same time, the .35 Rem can be used for short range rabbiting and varminting by using 125gr. JHP's.

I just like bigger holes in a lever gun I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
45-70 with light weight bullets! It also is easy to load to varying power levels with cast bullets for cheap practice.

Rich
DRSS

+1

For whitetail and Black Bear I would buy the 35 Rem and never look back.

I have leverguns in .30-30, .375 Win, .45-70, .44 Mag, .300 Savage, .22 HP and hunt with all.

While the big ones are fun, they really are more than what's needed. That neve stopped me though.

The .32's are oddly appealling but in reality, since they are loaded with the same weight bullets, the .30-30 is better.

Marlin recent;y clued in to the fact that the original twist on the .444 was too slow for the heavier bullets that many wanted to shoot in it. They changed the twist in the not too distant past in light of this. Look for a newer .444 if you want to go that route.

Feeding wise, the .35 and .45-70 seem to be less picky on the whole. A fact that is useful considering the large bullet selection available for both.

just a thought, a .38-55 is a fun one too.

Any of the three will do what you want to get done. I'm voting 45/70 though! So much damn fun. 300gr TSX is one hell of a lightweight round in the 45/70! And for cheap plinking you just cant beat the price of 405gr Rem bullets in the 500 count box -- what fun to explode stuff with those!

And add to it the Beartooth 405gr casr bullets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man, those things seem capable of going thru a an engine block!

So, when will you order your 45/70?

quote:

Originally posted by ManCannon:
.35 Remington. It's accurate, mild recoil, and highly under rated for what it does. I've got both, 45-70 and .35 Rem. For what you're asking it to do, no need for the 45-70, unless you just enjoy shooting the big boomers. .

I agree. I had a 336 in 35 rem and they are a sweet little woods deer rig. I like casting my own bullets and the 35 rem is a natural. With that said I traded up to the 358 win in a BLR and love it. I can use it for Elk as well as deer.

I also have a 45-70 Buffalo classic and I refer to it often as my funest gun to shoot.. They are also a natural for cast bullets. However I would opt for the long bbl version of the lever as opposed to the "guide gun". But thats just me.

Having said all that I have been very interested in the 444. It seems like an extremly well proportioned round and is very apealing to me. I would also LOVE to cast bullets for one of those but brass availability could become an issue. Unfortunatly it doesnt seem to be very popular.

I think the 444 may the perfect round for a classic lever action. I'd love to have one.

I have the 18.5" ported models of the 35 Remington, 444, 45/70 & 450. If your truly going to be hunting deer and nothing bigger the 35 Remmy will do a great job. It is a true deer rifle.