What is a reasonable grouping for a good condition Model 94 Winchester 30-30 shot at about 50 yards. (front sight covers the entire bullseye on the target)

With open sights at 50 yards I can maintain around an inch or so.

One thing I would do is not put the bead sight on the intended target. Instead sight just over the front bead so the bullets hit where you look. It's far more accurate. I sight my .30-30 a couple inches high at 100 yards.

You could always try a 6 oclock hold or an. X made with electric tape as a target. 1 inch would be reasonable, if your eyes are old 1.5 inches might be more you than the gun.

Right now about the best I can do is about 3 inches for a 5 shot group. High and to the left. I need to change the way I aim iron sights. I really like using the 30-30 for woods hunting when its snowing hard and you can't see through the scope very well. Shots are never more than 50 yards.

^
Ever think about using a peep sight? A friend has an older Win Lever Gun in 30-30 and he has a peep sight on the back. He use to use it for killing bison commercially on his parent's ranch (brain shot behind the ears) at around 50 yds.

BH63

Depends on the gun, and the 94s vari quite a bit...

My first year of production 30-30 will shoot 1 inch or better a 100 yards every time, and its bore looks like the inside of A tramp steamers pipes...My early 25-35 mod. 94 SRC shoots 2" or less av. at 100 yards. My two 30-30s shoot 2 s, sometimes less at 100, one is a carbine and the other is a oct. rifle..They shoot about the same at 50 yards..

Id say "reasonable" would be 3"s inches at 50 or a 100....

Keep in mind that my keepers were keepers because they are exceptionally accurate,not run of the mill, and gathered up over years of buying, selling and trading guns.

quote:

Keep in mind that my keepers were keepers because they are exceptionally accurate,not run of the mill, and gathered up over years of buying, selling and trading guns.

Well, maybe I might have to start doing some horsetrading and find some keepers, although I think that I should be able to hit a deer at 50 yards.

I'd fix the 'to the left' part before I got too worked up about anything.
3" groups at 50 yards leaves you a 300% variance on a deer.
but I would try a different brand of ammo and a different bullet weight before I called the rifle unsuitable.

I'm glad Ray chimed in since he has looong experience with lever guns.

I'm over sixty so I find open sights a little difficult to use accurately now. Instead I use a peep which for me is far more accurate.

I also changed out the front sight to an XS blade sight with the white stripe up the center. That contrast is easy to pick up in just about any light. I can maintain 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards if the gun is capable of it.

I use a six o'clock hold on a black bullseye target so the bullets hit a couple inches high at that range. Works for me.

Cougarz,
Spot on my friend, a Win. lever gun should shoot at least 3"s at 100, mine do better..and your right a grip peep or a receiver sight works much better, especially for ageing eyesight..The 30-30 is really underated these days, mostly by those who have little or no experience with it...I wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk with it again if the idea came to mind. Ive culled a lot of whitetail in texas with one and shot some big ole mule deer bucks with one..Keep the range to 200- 250 yards and it kills as well and shoots nearly as flat as a 30-06 or any other caliber.

LIsten to the advise of some gun scribes, its not an elk rifle but a 30-06 or 308 is good at up to 400 yards...DuH! a 30-06 is a 30-30 at about 300 yards I suspect..

I agree the .30-30 is a decent elk cartridge within reason.

When I was in my twenties a coworker shot his elk every year with one. At that point in time he already had something like a dozen elk to his credit. If you would have asked him if the .30-30 was enough, he would have looked at you like you were crazy.

You can't hit what you can't see. My solution has been to use a good peep sight. Remove the aperature to get more light and improve the field of view. Most front sight beads are the size of basketballs and blot out too much of the target. File the bead into a pyramid shape and use the apex as your aim point. The angle of the sides will automaticaly draw your attention to the point at the top, and you won't be so apt to lose your target behind the bead- a plus for running shots.

I use this combination on all of my rifles, and can still hit stuff at a thousand yards even with my 63 year old eyes.

Porosonik.

I remember my youth when we loaded up 15 head of horses and uncles, brothers, cousins all headed for Colorado for our yearly elk hunt..three tent full of family and two wall tents connected to cook and play poker in..the first couple of years we didn't take tents, but it got a little rough...Everyone back then packed a 30-30, 25-35, 300 Savage or 30-40 Krag, later on the 30-06 and 270 took over..They all worked then and would still work today, that has not changed one bit..I would bet none of those guns grouped 6 inches at 100 yards, all had barrel mounted iron sights that came on the gun, most were never sighted in, but they knew where they shot, don't remember anything getting wounded..Amazing isn't it. and nobody left until the last cowboy filled his tag. Man, those were the days, I give my "left one" to have them back.

I will forever remember my uncle Walter telling my cousin, Son, why don't get rid of that big kicking son of a bitch and get a decent rifle that doesn't ruin meat and kills just as well..He was addressing my cousins new Savage 99 in 300 Savage caliber..what a nice gun was my thoughts but I didn't chime it..

Yup those old camps were fun and for more than just the hunting.

A .300 Savage? He must have been pretty well off to afford such a fancy rifle!

As others have said I would cure the "off to the left" problem first. Then how much high?

Aim and hold at 6 O'clock on the bull (that is something one can see and do)and then you can truly see what you are doing. Not trying for X ring here, POA/POI and precision is the name of the game.

Last of all, if they are buckhorn sights, good luck, I can shoot OK with open sights but MUCH less so with the buckhorns.

How about peep sight with fairly large aperture?



again as others said, different brands of ammo, bullet weight, and style.

Yes you must tap it over to center as opposed to holding off target..then crank it up or down to 3"s high at 100 and you will be on at 150 and 5 inches low at 200 yards, 15 inches low at 300 with a 30-30..either a 150 or 170 as in my experience they usually shoot to the same POI or close enough fer Guvment work!

quote:

Originally posted by Porosonik:
... Most front sight beads are the size of basketballs and blot out too much of the target. File the bead into a pyramid shape and use the apex as your aim point. The angle of the sides will automaticaly draw your attention to the point at the top, and you won't be so apt to lose your target behind the bead- a plus for running shots...
Porosonik.

I would be more inclined to replace the bead with a square-topped post. Then you can sight it it shoot a bit high at normal ranges and centre your target area over top. Maybe this is counter-intuitive in shooting deer but it works a treat for head-shooting rabbits with a .22.

The trouble with sharp pickets in scopes is that the point disappears in poor light and I imagine the same would happen with open sights.

PS: I love Ray's reminiscences and that last one rings a bell with me. My father used .303s, Tommy guns etc during the war but in farming he rarely needed anything more than a .22 short or a .25/20, or a shotgun for foxes. Not that he was in to deer hunting until I dragged him out there - but I kinda got the idea he thought my .30-06 was overdoing it.

Same thing I did with my first Model 94 in 1966; Williams 5D peep sight.
You kids know what the 5D stands for?
Five Dollars.
Know what Motel 6 stands for? Guess.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Same thing I did with my first Model 94 in 1966; Williams 5D peep sight.
You kids know what the 5D stands for?
Five Dollars.
Know what Motel 6 stands for? Guess.

Ummmm $60?

I actually have a William 5D sight on my 1960 Winchester 94 in ,32 Special. And the box it came in....with the $5 price on the box.

And I have stayed in a Motel 6 for the original price

Yup the 5D sight is a good one. I never knew what the name stood for.

I have one on a m94 Winchester, love it....

You should be getting around 1.0 - 1.5 inch groups with that Winchester 94, and three inches or less at 100 yards.
But if you are unfamiliar with open sights you will not be getting what you want.

First off, don't let anyone tell you different, the standard sights on a Winchester 94 are excellent. You can do good work with them when you know how.

I file the front foresight bead backwards at an angle of 45 degrees, so that it catches the light from above. This will stop a highlight on one side or the other tricking you into thinking its the top of the bead.

But if you dont want to do that, you should black it entirely with paint or a marker. This just for the range.

First, the front bead should be down in the bottom of the U - so that only the circle of the bead is showing. That way your elevation is easily kept constant.
The right and left will take of its self down there, its easy to keep the bead in the middle.

Then, using a six inch black bull at 50 yards, aim it so that the black ball is sitting on the top of the bead - so it looks like a figure eight.

This is just how you aim for target shooting - not in the field. So you can be precise with shooting groups at paper. Shoot your groups there.

Then, from there adjust your point of impact so that the bullet is hitting where you want it to be. At fifty yards it should be right at the bottom of the black bull about an inch up from the bottom.
At 100 yards, the bullet should be hitting about about three inches lower than the bottom of the black bull.

So, now when you shoot in the field, put the bead into the bottom of the U, and then shoot through it, put the bead over where you want to hit and the bullet going through the centre of the bead. Keep both eyes open, and use it like a red dot sight.

Best to do your open sights target shooting on an overcast day, not bright sunlight. Its hard to shoot precisely with highlights shining off the sights. Or shoot undercover.

You will find the Winchester standard factory sights are able to perform very well indeed. I greatly prefer them, and out to 100 yards at least, can shoot just as well with them as a peep sight.

Most people will not find the barrel sights to be "excellent", Or anything above barely adequate, for a number of reasons, which is why the receiver sights were, from the 1800s, until now, far, far, superior.
But, for those who like them, fine. They are fine for hitting a deer at tp to 75 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Most people will not find the barrel sights to be "excellent", Or anything above barely adequate, for a number of reasons, which is why the receiver sights were, from the 1800s, until now, far, far, superior.
But, for those who like them, fine. They are fine for hitting a deer at tp to 75 yards.

Or so one reads on the internet.

I have considerable experimenting done hunting with open and aperture sights, and I started with the premise that aperture sights were better because that what I was told. Turns out it not necessarily true. (However, it is true at longer ranges than you would use a .30/30 at.)

The (later) Winchester 94 factory sights are excellent sights, but those who coming to using open sights with little experience, often lack confidence, or unsure of exactly how to use them best. Then poor performance is considered the 'best that can be done', and its simply not true.

Aperture sights have little advantage till you get out past 200 metres. The ghost ring concept I have given up on as well, in favour of open sights. Its fine in theory, and on paper, but out hunting it is (less effective for me at least ) when the shooter is under pressure. They work, but inexplicable misses take place, and Ihave concluded that the open sights, meaning spcfically a bead with a v, wide V or horizontal bar is best.
I do not care for front blades or post front sights, as in darker forest it can be hard to get the elevation right.
I have discovered common ground with Elmer Keith, who I was reading about a little while ago, gravitated from aperture sights like the Lyman 48, back to open V sights and a front bead, and confessed he had been wrong. I was interested to see he had come to the same conclusion as me.

Honestly you don't think you could shoot a deer at 100 yards or even 200 yards with a Winchester 94 and its factory sights?

You don't think you could hit a milk jug at 100 yards with the open sights on a Winchester carbine, from a good rest?

Im very comfortable at 300 yards with a good steady rest on a standing deer, with a 30-30 with factory irons or a peep, the peep is much better..I like the old Redfield sourdough post or some kind of a thin post..A deep V barrel mounted rear sight and a thin post with a sight picture like one takes with a pistol, flush with the sides, it nearly as good as a peep for me..

I sight in a 30-30, 32 Special or 25-35 3 inches high at 100 yards, that puts it dead on at 150 yards, 5 inches low at 200 yards an 13 inches low at 300 yards, surely one can handle a 13 inch drop, 400 is luck..

IMO most folks don't know how to sight in a 30-30 they sight them in at 100 yards because of yellow journalism and uniformed gun nuts, and the old girl is pretty worthless at 200 or 300 when you do that, just too much drop.....