I checked the search feature first and didn't see anything that jumped right out at me on this, so...

I've long been interested in the .348 and the gun designed to shoot it, the Model 71. So, I recently inspected some of the current Winchester ammo and have a question about it. I may be completely wrong about this, but these cartridges appeared to me to have a fairly pointed bullet for use in a tubular magazine. They did not appear to have the same broad surface as my 170 gr Winchester 30-30 factory rounds.

Is this something anyone else has noticed? Is it of any concern?

As Winchester has been selling this ammo from a date before I was born and I'm in my 50's, I think it is safe to say there is no worry at all!

The bullets are safe in the Model 71. Its there proformance on game that leaves a lot to be desired.

Take a long hard look at the Barnes bullets available for the 348. If all you want to shoot is whitetail deer don't worry about it...they don't take that much to kill.If you want to get serious with the .348,buy every Barnes bullet (250 grain)that you can find.

Woodleigh is also now making a 250gr bonded bullet for the 348.

63.00 a box was whats wrong with them

Thanks for the responses.

I'm not a handloader so I'm stuck with the Win factory ammo, as far as I know.

I do know Win has made the ammo since about 1936..three bullet weights actually. I have an original Win ammo handbook given me in about 1957 listing the ammo for sale, but not the gun. It had already been dropped. They had the 88 in its place by then. They've since dropped the light and heavy bullets and only still carry the middle one.

I don't know if the shape of its nose has changed any thru the years. I do know that the shape of the nose, that is, amount of exposed lead, has definitely changed on some others. One example is the 180 gr .30-06 pointed soft point aka pointed power point. It's now far more spitzer like even though it has the exact same product #.

That's really what prompted me to ask about it. Anyhow, do you guys actually shoot these and do you know if the current shape of the exposed lead is the same as in previous factory loadings? That's what I was trying to get at.

I'd also be interested in knowing a little more about their performance or lack of it. Is it a lack of expansion or lack of penetration?

I'm doing some performance comparisons on 348 bullets right now. I need to collect a few other brands but I have shot the Win 200s and 250s both from factory loads. I will pull some of both and check all velocities when time allows.

IMO, the available Winchester load with the 200 silver tip is, at most, an elk round. Even then, due to the bullet, I would shy away from anything other than a classic broadside shot. If you put it in the boiler room from that angle, you would be eating elk liver that night. Not so hot on using the same load on close in timber hunting where high angle shots are the norm. It did surprise me though that the vaunted 250 silver tip did not penetrate all that much more than the 200 although there sure was more left of the 250. The 200 was pretty well flattened at point blank impacts.

As far as the meplat goes, I know of no instance where anyone has had a problem with it but I do agree that on first glance, it can make one a little nervous. A lot has to do with the the design of the cartridge case and how it sets in the magazine. Once upon a time there were lever guns with tube magazines that shot spitzer bullets but it was possible due to case, tube, and bullet design. Lawyers probably wouldn't allow that now.

quote:

but I do agree that on first glance, it can make one a little nervous

That was really my main concern and prompted the question whether the latest silver tip is another re-design like others in the past. I have been seriously considering buying a Model 71 and so I examined the cartridges, and when I held up the tip of one to the primer of another, it got my attention. It didn't look any wider.

My use of it would be limited to close range deer. I'd prefer more expansion than likely with a silver tip, but on the other hand I've seen a number of deer cleanly taken with them in .30-06. As far as I can tell it doesn't really matter.

What would be interesting is if anyone has access to some very old .348 ammo and could discuss the meplat and bullet shape. Then I'll make some sort of final decision on buying one (I could I guess have a double rifle made for it...)

The meplat on the 200 grain has been the same for over 40 years and probably the same from the start. I haven't seen examples of 200s prior to the early 60s but that was after the rifle has ceased production. The 250 ST did have a considerably larger meplat and I don't know the historically correct reason one was different from the other. Remember, the 348 was in competition with the, then current, "bolt craze" with their pointy sexy bullets and I am sure that Winchester did not want to alienate those potential customers from buying the rifle with a fat stodgy bullet tip. The 250ST is a slightly different matter as it is intended as a short range (<150 yds) affair so doesn't need to be quite as sexy.

BTW, the 200 ST is NOT an overly tough bullet. The Hornady bullet is considerably tougher. Between the two, I'd lean toward the ST over the Hornady for deer. For elk, I'd go just the opposite way.

The book I mentioned was given me in the mid-1950s when I was a kid by Herb Parsons, Win's famed exhibition shooter. It has photos of all the Win guns then offered and includes the 88 (it says chambered for 243, 308 and 358) and 94 (they called it a carbine and said it came in 32 and 30-30), but not the 71. It was already gone.

The model 70 was there of course, and in three different models or grades.

There are fairly close-up photos of two different 348 cartridges. Both are obvious Silver Tips. One has only some tip showing and the other has a lot. It's probable I think that one is a 200 and the other a 250. Both definitely have far more meplat and are flatter on the nose than the current ammo I recently looked at. So, I'm thinking there's been over the years a re-design..maybe as part of a movement to sharper pointed projos in general, like the 30-06 I was referring to earlier.

Other cartridges like the 30-06 and 270 are also pictured and appear a lot more pointed in comparison to the 348s that are pictured, but less pointed than current ones. The 30-40 and many others are there too. The 30-40's nose profile was somewhere in between the 348 and the 30-06 and 270.

Ballistics are there for the 348 in 150, 200 and 250. These were all shown as "S.T.Exp." and in addition there is a reference to a 200 grain Soft Point. That's the one that would be I think most useful for deer.

The 200 at the time was 2530 fps and 2840 ft lbs muzzle. The current round is 2520 fps and 2820 ft lbs muzzle. So that hasn't changed.

Anyway, that book's a valuable source on what all was going on with guns, ammo and ballistics 50 something yrs ago. Also seems I just maybe answered my own quesion...

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I may be completely wrong about this, but these cartridges appeared to me to have a fairly pointed bullet for use in a tubular magazine.

The 348 is a steeply tapered case with a very broad casehead and rim. I'd guess that with the cartridges lying down in the magazine tube the bullets aren't anywhere near touching the primers.

That might be the case. I don't know. I would imagine the mag spring tension would prevent the nose from dropping if that's what you meant. On my 94 it's pretty stiff..you notice that when you push in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

Anyhow, I just looked at them again at the local gun shop. The silver tip portion starts at half way on the bullet. The top is flat and right at 1/8" across the flat. The primer is 3/16" wide and looks pretty flat too. So the nose is smaller than the primer. I don't know if it's a special type primer or not.

Does this sound like the same design on 45-70 or something quite different? I've never owned one of those. I used to use the empty cases with the primer holes plugged for pre-measured BP charges, but never actually had any of the bullets. A lot more of those are shot than 348, so maybe that's a good source for guidance on it.

One more thing..it's $33 for a 20 round box. They had only the one box. Judging from the price it's probably been there a long time.

$33 is a great price...the cheapest factory ammo I've found in the last 4 years was $42. Highest...$62.