Not sure whether this goes in the Lever Guns or in the wildcat link but here goes.

My Marlin 444 piqued my interest several days ago...snow and cold has given me cabin fever already.

I have modified the 336 several ways but the 444 barrel is on it now. I looked at my notes an discovered I haven't actually measure the max to lands COAL for ANY of the on hand bullets, I just determined the max COAL that would cycle and worked up some loads...most being in the 2.60"- 2.68" range depending on the point contour. I just ordered bullets from Hawk and Bear Tooth so I thought I'd better get to the max COAL number.

I got an BIG surprise...the max length was 3.83" to 3.95" which meant ≈1.2" to 1.4" FREE BORE...talk about a "Weatherby throat". Most of the loads for 265 gr to 300 gr were running slightly over published velos with NO PRESSURE SIGNS and I tested ONE 100% density, 250 gr LFNGC, RL-7 load in the same case for 40 shots, running ≈2300 fs with very little case lengthening, base expansion, extraction/primer problems.

Now to my thoughts...HOW DO I USE THAT EXTRA SPACE????.

At one time I THINK there was a wildcat using the 30-06 case necked up to hold a .430 bullet and used in a bolt gun...not sure???...old wildcatter minds can play tricks.

I checked all my sources but couldn't find it so I started looking for a case that would have the dimensions of the 444 but LONGER.

The 405 AND 9.3 X 74 R were close enough to work. I can cycle/extract a 2.60" round with no problem so WHY not a 2.58" 405 W...SINGLE LOADED OF COURSE and as the first shot with "normal" rounds in the mag tube for back-up.

I designed a case with Load from a Disk using the 405 Win and ran it through QL.

The 405 Win isn't EXACTLY 444 M dimensions but close enough so NO RECHAMBERING IS NEEDED, just fire form in the Marlin chamber and reload...maybe a bit of lumpiness near the base because of the OD variation and the rim might need an bit of trimming, but hey, this is wildcatting on a budget.
The 74R is slightly closer base wise...MUCH more expensive, needs 0.300" shortening and just as elusive.

I haven't tried the '06 yet but today I will fire form a few '06/270 cases and proceed.

405 Win cases seem to be in short supply, i.e., THERE AIN'T NONE AVAILABLE on ANY of the normal brass supplier sites. This seems to happen to me almost EVERY time I get cabin fever and go to wildcatting.

Some very nice numbers for the 265 Horn Interlock and RL-10...up in the ≈2600 fs/≈400#ft range with not too bad pressure at 3.20" COAL...0.195" seating depth.

I think it will single load as fast and as easy as any single shot and for a first shot would be very advantageous. It would have to be shot out or the bolt pulled to extract, but I've done that already with loads in the 2.75" range with long heavy cast bullets.

Seems like a nice way to get more whack with that most important first shot...something to think about anyway.

Good Hunting

Man, you really were bored !

Happens when you've been at this game so long...first 22 at 5, given your first 22 rifle at 7, BOUGHT your first Win 94 rifle by cutting lawns and other work by 7th-8th grade, doing grunt work for local 'smiths in high school, but was only allowed to shoot it when Dad was around until a freshman in high school. Done this thing almost 70 odd years, been building or modifying shooters since '55-'56, have wildcats up the guzach and almost all the holes filled from 17 to 50 cal either on the shelf or "beendonealready....somewhat all that with overlooks to senile dementia and Al's Hymers crap.

Got two 270 and two 9.3x62 cases expanded to .416 but the candy is bitter sweet...THE CHAMBER...I was in such a blind happy I forgot about the chamber dimensions...case length is still 2.25" or there abouts and so is the chamber cut...I NEED A THROATER/NECKER to lengthen the chamber cut to the length of whatever case I can find to use.

The 270 W ended up at 2.45" from 2.53" and the 9.3 at 2.40".

Still not bad...I can still use the 270 cases and only loose about 3-5 gr H20, maybe ≈50 fs and ≈125 #ft or slightly more with the 9.3 case...any additional gain by going to longer cases might not offset the ease...

If I could find some CHEAP 74R cases, modified as is, I can extract ≈2.67- 2.70" rounds from the Marlin...BUT lotsa work cutting to the 74R to length.

A 2.94" 74R case holds ≈97 gr H2O, but maybe TOO long at ≈3.2" and unusable in the Marlin(won't know until I neck the rifle and try.)...a 2.70" 74R case holds ≈89 gr H2O, a 2.58" 405 case holds ≈85 gr H2O and a 2.53" 270 case hold ≈83 gr H2O...all calculations from Load from a Disk, actual cases probably will vary a bit.

Going from ≈68-70 gr to ≈83 gr case volume wise is ≈15%...not a bad jump considering all the hoopla over the 5-10 gr gains with Mr P.O A's fine wildcats and DEFINITELY a nice gain for the 444 levergun.

Basically all academic but useful and relatively very easy to achieve. Might cause an accuracy problem...or not...only time and doing it will tell. It was 10° last night with 4-6" of snow and has warmed up to 25°(total heat wave and begging for mercy) and my shop is colder than a well diggers ta-ta's so unless it warms up a bit and I can find a necker to rent to lengthen the chamber AND cases, this might only end up a whiskey fumed dream WITHOUT the whiskey.

What is it???...Use it or loose it or some such horse pucky. AND I like to Bull-chip also.

Good Hunting

I would say for a lever actioned rifle the '86 is still the right platform for a super hot .44cal wildcat. Here one can use the .348 or the .45-90 case to really boost ballistics.
For a singleshot rifle a la Ruger No1 the .500/450 Holland & Holland case neck down to .430" could make the 265 grain bullet scream.
For the boltaction the RUM case in shorten version would also be a funny choice or the 9,3x64 case. Ofcouse the 11,2x72 Schlüler pops up when takling about a super .44cal.

True, true..the Marlin wouldn't be my first choice if I was starting out with a clean slate...it has a surfeit of "problems" to address/overcome or just adapt to...my Marlin being a "project platform" for the past 10 years or so and me not wanting to throw a bunch of money down the rat hole, limits my choices...and not wanting to muck about too much with a perfectly good 444 M's chamber puts even MORE "limits" in the way...I STILL want to shoot a standard 444 M...I have too much money invested in all the 444 M components to just throw that away...think 38/357, 44 Sp/44 Mag, 500 Sp/500 SWMag...444 M/444 M Mag.

It gets VERY pricey if you want to "semi-correct/address" the square threads to add a modicum of additional pressure safety and COAL limit or buy a new rifle...the gain is minimal for the heavy cost of the "correction" reamers or 'smith charges.

Starting with a "V" threaded MX receiver and limiting the case dia goes a LONG way in getting a very stout caliber going nicely. A belted case or WSM/Marlin Express/SAUM can/has been used to produce excellent and useful wildcats on the Marlin platform....look at the WSM cased 450 Yukon...just a chamber job to an EXCELLENT bear/moose/t-Rex/"shooter" whacker.

People seem to be running away from the leverguns en mass...just look at what happened to Winchester and Marlin...now Henry is taking over...maybe it's their time...I really like the looks of the 45-70.

Another problem is the butt stock...recoil pad or not, straight or curved and RECOIL...look at all the whines from hunters with just the low end 45-70/405 gr bullet. A curved butt '86 in 45-100 or 50-110 JUST HURTS and my 458 American barrel on my Marlin hurts worse than many of my other 45-50 cal rifles with 450-700 gr bullets for some reason and it has a very nice recoil pad PLUS both the 458 Am and 444 M have MB's.

Pressure limits, COAL limits, usable case limits all get in the way, but mixing and matching, optimizing here and there can gain where factory is just factory. Even using the '86 has pressure problems but addresses the COAL somewhat.

60 years ago the Win 94 was all the shooter I needed but that wasn't enough for me...I HAD to wildcat it to 30 Lever-power. A few years back I found a Marlin 336 30-30 on the rack at my favorite gunstore CHEAP and just COULDN'T leave it there...so it all began again.

There are a few nice 416 Wildcats that will work very well in the Marlin...one that is looking mighty good...the 416 Raptor...basically a 416-'06 that could very easily use the 444 M case to give a 416 x 444. NO problems with an oversized chamber reducing the barrel metal around the case. Take a Marlin MX "V" threaded 338 receiver rebore/rechamber to to a 416 x 444 M, modify the receiver to handle 2.65" COAL and go shooting...you get similar velo/energy as the same weight bullet in the 444...BUT...a slightly higher BC due to the available pointy bullets and slightly longer OAL length...argumentative to say the least.

HOW many shooters would do this...probably none...or maybe some wild-eyed wildcatter looking for something different for the bragging rights or just contrariness or has winter time "cabin fever".

Anyway...a 2.45" 270 case taken to 44 cal holds ≈80-82 gr H2O...at a COAL of 2.90"/ 265 gr bullet and single loaded it can do ≈2500 and ≈3700 #ft..compare that to a standard 444 M....not too shabby for a first shot and a bit of futzing around loading it.

Good Hunting

What is the 450 Yukon?

Well...when I think of a name to a hot rodded wildcat in .44cal I can only think of a Plymouth Roadrunner and a 440magum...well there you have it...440 magnum.

Absolutely...440 Magnum...I remember that muscle demon chewing up my Chebby 454 Nova mess about!!!!!!

Info on the 450 Yukon can be found online and at Beartooth...it's the 1895 Marlin, 450 Marlin rechambered to a WSM case necked up to 45 cal...reamers and dies are available from the various respectful sources. VERY simple rechamber and no other changes needed... EXCEPT for a thicker recoil pad and MB.

Looking like all I will need is a 0.455-56" chucking reamer...fired cases measure 0.456" OD but I will do a chamber cast to be sure...needs an additional 0.400" straight cut that might not cause much re-dazz anywhere.

I CAN'T be the first one to think about doing this...that doesn't seem possible???????

Good Hunting

Just ordered a 50 piece bag of Prvi 9.3 x 74R brass from Graf...at least I will have brass to play with.

Might even crank me up to order that 9.3 Valmet double now...Would be a nice Christmas present for certain. I DON'T need any more shooters...THAT'S for certain...but "MORE IS BETTER"?????...isn't it??????

Good Hunting

Just ordered a throater/necker combo from PT&G...6-8 weeks lead time. Plenty of time to get some brass cut/trimmed/prepped to fire-form, a sizer die modified, barrel removed and set up, etc.

≈200-50 fs additional velo and ≈850-1000 #ft more energy seems pretty substantial for the bit of futzing around I'm doing...puts it right up there chomping at the heels of the big dogs... I LIKE IT

I've practiced single loading my Marlin and swapping in clips in my BLR just for eventualities if they should come and I have several break action and drop block shooters so single loading with this longer case shouldn't be a problem...BUT...only time will tell.

Pics when I get something to photograph...for those holding their breath...hahahahahahahah

Good Hunting

There it is...won't know what the actual velo is until the throater/necker gets here in 2 months. Might have a few more cases made by then...have to setup my drill motor, chop saw or Dremel to cut ≈0.300" off....hand turning for just one case was chore enough.

Good Hunting

I fireformed and water weighed a case and trimmed to 2.635"...84.5 gr H2O...thats just slightly less than a 45-100 2.6" and slightly more than a 375/411 Hawk Scoville. Not bad for a levergun...OR any other shooter. The same could be done to a 45-70 Marlin but with not as much volume increase.

With so little interest and few comments, I won't bother adding anymore...this DEFINITELY will be a one off.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Absolutely...440 Magnum...I remember that muscle demon chewing up my Chebby 454 Nova mess about!!!!!!

Its a Chevy..


Maybe a .45-90 cut down to 56mm and then necked down to a .43cal?. That would work through a Marlin.

If an 1886 is used one could take the .40-82WCF and expand the neck with a .429" rod and still get the slim sligthly taper sided cartridge that looks good..and no bottlenecked design.

Nah, ¡Mira! Ese...it's a Chebbycar...we don' lie' no stinking Chevrolet...

Basically the same problems with doing a 45-70 "Magnum"...the 45-90 W.C.F is toooo short at ≈2.4" to bother with, not enough gain but VERY usable and already available if you have an '86...some maintain it's plenty, and so it is. The 45-90 Sharps Straight has a 0.500" base and 2.75" long which could work if I could find cheap/available cases and didn't mind the case bulge, 45-120 Sharps Straight would work at 3.25" but they are VERY costly and more to cut off....I checked every rimmed case that might work and the 74R fit all the criteria so it got the nod...

Can't get PT&G off the pot with email AND letter, so I called Dave Manson...he understood right off what I was doing. Send in a dummy round and 90 bucks and he will grind a throater/necker to fit the 444 M "Magnum" specs...3-4 weeks instead of twice that...this is after all just a 0.410-420" longer neck added to the standard 444 M case.

Tried the Marlin out single loading with 3 different bullet dummy's...265 FTX(3.425"), 265 FP(3.24) and 300 XTP(3.25"), all Horns...all seated ≈0.200 to 0.250" deep. All worked but I need to open up the rear of the port a tad or cut down the rims ≈0.015" to get the 300 XTP to work as it hangs up going in...probably will cut the rims to actual real life 444 Marlin R-P case 0.510" dia from the 74R 0.525". Even with the 300 gr hangups the other bullets will ALMOST extract loaded if I pull the bolt completely back and the case rim falls off the extractor and it's just removing the lever bolt to gain enough wiggle/slop room for that to happen.

I will only do 15 cases anyway...I won't be hosing down the world with this toy.

One other minor problem...this will be a real THUMPER at 9.5 lbs including scope, with those 300 gr slugs even WITH the M.B. hanging off the end.

Man...I sure do love futzing around wildcatting shooters and solving problems...

Good Hunting

nonagonagin, am on the lever action site no. heard you were looking for a Winchester bug boar in 375 win. I have one that you may have an interest in.outside of a couple screws that someone should have used a proper fitting screw driver in everything is in really nice shape. Bore I would rate around 90% shot very little. 200 new win 375 cases abd I would have to look but possibly 2 boz of hornady 200 375 flatnose bullets and maybe 2 bozes of Sierra 200 375 bullets. if interested please send me a pm in the mean time I will check on how many of the bullets I have.Regards,Frank aka singleshot lover.

Thanks, Frank for the offer ...I was interested at one time but that has passed. Thought about doing another switch barrel for my 336 Marlin receiver, that passed also...wrong time, wrong place, too many other projects, etc. Just bought a 40-65 Sharps because I decided against the 38-55 Sharps/High Wall but still keep thinking about a long barreled 375 Win/38-55 switch barrel for an NEF receiver...GOTTA STOP THINKING!!!, a major problem for an old wildcatter.

Good Hunting

I acquired a 30-30 mod 94 carbine that used a 30-40 case..A smith in Arizona built those guns, and it easily duplicated a 300 Savage, 303 or 30-40 krag. I don't know if he is still in business or even alive..It was a dandy saddle gun and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot and elk with it..but I sold it as for the range and Iron sighted 94 was good for a 30-30 would be every bit as good a killer on deer or elk..I think the same can be said for your Marlin.

Yeah...the "Thuty-thuty" killed a lot of game back in the days before the "modern" 30 cals and STILL DOES...no argument from me, but HIGHLY argumentative as anyways. I wonder just how well the 30-30 would have fared if a 444 Marlin cartridge were available back then...what would the hoo-haw's sounded like???? I'm certain not much different than today's online chatter.

I was pestering my Dad back in the 6-7 grades for something BIGGER than my 22, had to wait 'til a high school freshman and a job to get one. I was a wildcatter, thinking "bigger, faster, something different" before I even knew what "wildcatting" was, haven't looked back since...as many others have gone before me.

My 444 "MAGNUM" iteration is just something to play with, VERY WORKABLE, for those with an inventive bent...I'm not trying to out do anything that came before or after, just like to play "wildcatter" and I'm always looking for something to do...comparable to other ≈850-90 gr cases whatever the caliber...≈20% more case volume...what's not to like for a first shot. No "good, better, best" or my dog's better than your MUTT, just another toy to play with or not...YOUR choice.

The throater/necker is on order from Manson, PT&G didn't work out. Haven't nailed down/decided the actual case length yet, somewhere between 0.300" and 0.400" longer but no longer than 2.64-.65" OAL fired case length that will work through my Marlin and ≈2.90" COAL as I indicated before.

USED to like hi-velo, small bullets,(still do for rat-things), now I like medium to low velo BIG, heavy bullets...if a 30 cal relatively low velo 170 gr bullet will kill a moose, I think larger dia, heavier, slightly faster 265 gr .430 cal bullet will do just as well....maybe even a little better. Comparing is just pizzing on boots and putting your favorite toy on top...doesn't really mean much, there is ALWAYS a bigger/smaller dog...But that is ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder, isn't it.

Good Hunting

Nonagonagin, not a problem. Seems the older I get(now 72) the fewer projects I either get started or never started. The wife always said I had a champagne taste and a beer pocketbook. One I do hope to get done is get a BSA 12/15 relined to 32-20 with a faster than normal standard 32-20 twist bbl to shoot slightly heavier cast bullets. I've a cadet martini complete trigger group so no rf to cf conversion to do. Thanks again Frank

Still plodding along...the weather has put a big kink in everything...pieces and parts still coming in a week or so late...≈ 16" of snow a couple days ago, then two days of rain and more rain/snow for the next several days...all the lovely snow turned into ******* slushy mucky mud...can't even get out to my loading shed without putting on chest waders.

Ordered another mold from Accurate Molds...38-285IG for my 38-55...still waiting for bullets from Beartooth...hardly any winter until Feb hit, then Pacha Momma went nuts.

Did get some loads worked up for my 444 Makatak Magnum...QL says a 270 gr SPR GD hit over 2650 fs and ≈4200 #ft at ≈48 Kpsi with 748 at 3.2" COAL and RL-10 a little hotter at 51.2 Kpsi, a few fs more velo and ≈4225 #ft. Not bad for a first shot application...the 444 Marlin being a 51.5 Kpsi cartridge.

I think a 45-70 Marlin could do a bit better going the same route...


Good Hunting