Ray:

As usual I shot a little bit from the hip. I mean that the 170 gr. being just that little bit heavier might do a little more damage. Being even more truthful, the 150 gr.wasn't known in my neck of the woods when I was shooting the 30-30 as a kid. (BTW, and yes, I'm boasting that I have travelled a bit, I have been in Panama where I heard the "treinta -treinta" referred to as if it was the only cartridge to use for anything and having seen cayman shot with it, I could believe it! {rolling belly up} I never saw anything but boxes of 170 gr. Honestly, the 150 seems to me like an aberration that goes in the opposite direction for a cartridge - like a heavier loading for a 270 Win. than 130!

Uplandr:

Mad Dog gave you the best advice. Whether it's a Canada black or American (regardless of weight)a black bear simply doesn't take a bullet and you will put him down with a 30-30,170 gr. that is put in the boiler room. ( However I wouldn't recommend shooting the south end of a bear going north!)


S

The original question was what the best factory load was in the 30-30 for Black bear. Without a doubt it is the winchester silvertip in 150 or 170. I only wish they would offer these bullets for handloaders. I have hunted deer, hogs, pronghorn and black bear with this load in its factory guise and have had great results. I just got back my new ruger number one I had chambered in 30-30. This is going to be a fine little rifle.

Gosh what a pleasant thread. Ray, thanks for all your memories, especially chasing bears in Ruidoso! Think it was Sam Fadala that said he liked using pulled 190-grain Silvertips from .303 Savage for heavier game. My experience with blacktail deer is that a 150 FP from a .30-30 is fatal in a few seconds if properly placed. Haven't whacked anything bigger.

Most any factory 170 grain bullet will do for a 100 yard shot. Dont let anyone fool you, Black Bear are not all that tough to bring down, nor are they all that big.

In fact, the .30-30 is almost ideal for Black Bear.

The .30-30 is one of the most developed rounds in existence and you really have a hard time finding a poor factory load...In fact, I dont know of a poor American factory load for the .30-30!

Get a 170 grain bullet from one of the major american ammo manufacturers (just pick the one that shoots best in your gun) and you can walk into the woods with confidence.

I'm always amazed when people underestimate the .30-30. Bullets almost always hold together, expand well, penetrate well and do a lot of damage.

Like I said, it's one of the most developed rounds in existence. You dont need, nor is it desirable to have a "wonderbullet" as the .30-30 doesn't generate enough velocity to work a bullet too hard.

I have killed one Blackie with the .30-30, and he went down hard. He was hit hard just behind the right shoulder and only went about 15 yards before piling up.

I have witnessed several other kills with the .30-30 on good sized Black Bears in the 400+ lb range with similar results. I've seen the 170 (Remington Cor-Lokt) break a shoulder on a 450 pounder and come to rest half way through a rib on the other side. Jacket and core were still one, bullet was mushroomed well and all was good in bear hunting land.

Happy hunting

For baiting or running with hounds a 30-30 would be fine. In PA both are illegal and driven bears are usually running or only give some odd angle shot. Vancouver Island blackies are usually spotted at a distance and stalked. In both these circumstances I would use more gun than a 30-30 if one was available.

Let's look a a few numbers.At 100 yards, a 30-30 170 gr. bullet has about 1900 FPS with roughly 1350 Ft. Lbs. energy.
The .308 Win. with 180 gr. bullet is a 30-30 at 400 yards. The 30-06 is no more than a 30-30 at roughly 450 yards. and as a rough guess as the tables I'm looking at, a 300 magnum is nothing but a 30-30 at a litlle past 500 yards, yet how many think that a 500 yard shot on a game animal with that 300 mag. is a fair deal, never realizing that at that distance, they're shooting a puny 30-30.
Within it's range limits, a 30-30 will work just fine. Now, if you have to hunt where shots are at longer range, then pick a more powerful rifle such as a .308, 30-06 etc. But if your shots are around the 100 yard or laess mark, use a 30-30. After all, at some point, they're all 30-30s in power.
Paul B.

Paul,

I agree but I disagree...

All of what you have said is true, however:

Energy figures really mean nothing in the field. If you have a .300 Win Mag with a 150 grain bullet blow up on a deer at 50 yards, it's still a failed shot.

Killing comes from a balance of bullet design and velocity. For what it was designed for (150 yards or so) the .30-30 is an outstanding killer regardless of energy figures.

But, all of the other cartridges you mentioned are excellent, and I would pick any of them up in a second.

Hunting with the lever action .30-30 is not a persuit of efficiency, it's a persuit of the hunt. Using a .30-30 means that you must HUNT better, and place your shots well. When you do those two things, the .30-30 kills just as well as anything on earth.

Personally, I have my trusty .30-06 and it can cleanly take any animal that I ever want to hunt. But, there are times when hunting with my 1927 vintage model '94 is the coolest thing I can do.

When I hunt with my .30-30, I sometimes have to pass up shots, but honestly many of them you'd be better off passing up with a .300 Win-Mag, as a bad shot is a bad shot regardless of the cartridge. But when I do get a shot, it can be counted on to do the job every time.

Remember, we hunt for sport, not because we'll starve if we dont come home with a deer strapped to the hood. There's never a time where we NEED to take an iffy shot. So hunt with the gun you love and do your part...It's more fun that way.

Your statement about them all being .30-30's is correct from a ballistic point of view, but not when it comes to killing. A .30-30 is a better killer at 100 yards than a .300 Mag is at 500 yards, regardless of what the ballistics tables say. The reason: The .30-30 was intended to kill at 100 yards and the .300 mag wasn't. Those big magnums were not intended to burn off 150 grain bullets at 500 yards, but rather, they were to drop elk at 300 yards with bullets in the 180-220 grain weight range.

Just my two cents...Honestly, we both raise valid points

I don't want to pass up an odd angle shot, or one at two hundred yards. Therefore I use more gun. Someday I may change my mind.

As a kid growing up in West Texas, most all the ranchers and all of my familiy used 30-30s, 32 Specials and 25-35s in Win. M-94 carbines, and a few highly admired individuals even had a 300 Sav. to the awe of everyone I knew..I told myself someday I would get me a 300 Savage, now thats a real gun, but never did do that as I went on to bigger and better things like a .470 N.E.

I killed 4 or 5 big bull elk with a 30-30 and my first one with a 25-35, thats what everyone used back then as far as I knew...I shot a few bear with the 30-30...I found the 30-30 to be an excellent killer on elk and bear and that old gun collected a ton of Mule deer, coues deer, and a few whitetail along the way...I still have it today and I still hunt with it from time to time as well as my 25-35..It still works..

At a 100 to perhaps 200 yards I cannot tell any difference in killing power between the 30-30 and my 308, 30-06, 7x57 or my 300 H&H and 338 for that matter. What I shoot generaly drops to the shot or runs 50 yards and goes down with any of them if I do my part...

I think the bullets for the 30-30 have been so perfected that they just work everytime, I believe I can say the same for the 30-06, over the years the factories have perfected the bullets and a good performing bullet outweighs caliber any day IMO....

Anyone that thinks the 30-30 isn't a good killer of game up to 200 yards just has not used it enough to know and has been reading too many gun books...

I know that Bwana Cotton or Carter (one or the other) shot all of his African animals, including dangerous game with a 32 Special in a Win. M-94 carbine for a number of years before he finally got around to buying a bigger gun, only then because he was getting in the outfitting business and according to him wanted to be a proper PH!

Bottom line is there is no substitute for good shooting, thats what its all about. I noticed the same thing in my golf game, I never could buy a set of golf clubs that made my game any better and almost went into the poor house buying high dollar guarenteed clubs...

I don't think Charles Cottar is the perfect example to quote. While he did shoot everything with a 32 special a rhino took exception to being shot with a 405 and killed him.

Ray,

Very well said. My observations have been the same as yours. When hit well, I haven't seen a difference in ANY cartridge. Although different rifles will do a vast difference in damage (post mortem) the deers response to being hit is almost always the same.

Now with that said, I have seen both success and failure of many fine rifles and cartridges. Some where the wrong application of a bullet Example: 300 Wby Mag W/ 180 Ballistic Tip on white tail deer shoulder at 60 yards. First shot completely failed to impress the deer. Second shot killed it like lightning.

Other times it was failure of the shooter to place his bullets well.

Regardless, when speaking of deer and black bear and rifle calibers above .223 (not a fan of .223 on big game), well placed shots, combined with good load choice = humanely killed game.

Could it be that within a certain parameter, they're all just rifles...Like us mere mortals??