Hey guys,

I was bitten with levergun fever and I've had the urge to get either a .45/70 or .35 Remington for a backup gun for Elk hunting and pig hunting. A stainless guidegun will run you $600+, The blued will run $529+

Is the .35 worth going for, or should I get the blued or stainless .4570? Anyone had any problems with the bluing on their Marlin rifles?

Thanks

The 35 Rem is a bit light for elk, but if you like a lever the 45-70 will work great. I have had 2 of the Marlins in 45-70 and found them to be exceedingly accurate - 3 shots touching at 100 yards when pushing a 400 grain Speer to 1750 fps.

I've heard good reports on the Buffalo Bore 35 Rem 220 gr. That would be the only one I'd use for elk. The 45-70 is far more versatile. Lots of factory loads from mild to hot and many hand loading options .IIRC the 45-70 Marlin is the favorite for elk in the NW woods hunting .

The 45-70 can be a brutal piece to shoot. It's also pretty darned heavy.. I'd prefer the smaller lighter 336 in a converted .35 Rem to .358 Win.

220 gr speer's or the 225 Nosler with the nose filed flat would be awesome.

Do a search. There's quite a bit of info out there on the conversion. JMO.

Here ya go: .35 to .358 conversion.

http://www.gunweek.com/2003/feature0301.html

How about the .348?

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
How about the .348?

A good cartridge, and ample for elk. Same with the 358 Win. A Win M88 could be rebarreled to 358 Win if you prefer a safety to push rather than a hammer to cock.

I would recommend the Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun. My brother has one and it is as accurate as 500grains states.

You do not always have to shoot the hard kicking loads.

For deer and wild pigs the standard 300gr Factory loads [or equivelent handloads] work great. If you have BIG deer or BIG pigs the 300gr Nosler Partition bullet gives plenty penetration.
This load would probably work for elk if you needed a lower recoil load.

Thanks guys keep them coming!

I do not mind recoil from a .45-70, as I don't think it could be as bad as my 8.5lb .458 Win Mag.

Which loads would you recommend? 300gr Nosler? SAF? 400gr Speer?

I would really like a hard hitting load

bugle, I've shot them both in my marlin guide gun. But the gun likes the 400 gr speer the most. I load 53 gr IMR-3031 and the aforementioned bullets. Hard to believe how good this lever gun shoots with those bullets. Velocity is such that there is no meat damage. You can eat right up to the bullet hole. Also you get more penetration with the 400's.
GWB

Given the choices I'd lean towards the 300gr nosler myself

Though if you changed the choice of 400gr bullet to the 400gr Barnes I might waver...

Someone posted test results here in AR with the 450Marlin cartridge (same velocity as a handloaded 45-70)
where the 300grain partition out-penetrated everything else, my inclination is to believe those test results.

People who comment that the45-30 and 30-30 are "100yard cartridges" are people too lazy to make elevation corrections.

The 45-70 with warm handloaded 300grain bullets
will make a big hole, both in width and depth and I'd consider it a 200yd cartridge in the hands of someone willing to take the time to become familiar with it.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:


I would really like a hard hitting load

Then a 400 grain bullet at 1700 to 1800 fps fills the bill. It kicks hard at both ends. Personally I have not used the 300 gr Nosler on game so I can offer no comment on it.

I have used and seen used the .45-70 on elk and its a pretty dismal elk caliber IMO..even with the Noslers..It kills them but they sure can travel a long ways before they expire..I have some of these kills on tape..

I used the hard cast heavy bullets in a .45-90 and it did some better, but they still covered a lot of ground after the hit..

I know this subject stirs up the masses but its my opinion and based on experiences, not guess and by gosh, that mostly haunts the .45-70, its a real guess and by gosh caliber.

The only reason I am really looking into one is that in the unit I hunt in there are really only two types of terrain...open meadows/ clearcuts with aspen inbetween offering out to 200 yards in some instances...and dark timber. Dark Timber would be easier with the short 45-70

I guess if I can't find a buyer for my .458 win mag ammo I will pick up this local Ruger #1 in .458 win mag and use it for elk.

I love my 45-70 Guide Gun. I think with a 300 grain Partition at 2300ish fps it will be more than enough for elk. My deer load is H4198 under a 300 grain Remington HP, it cloverleafs at 100 yards. Velocity from a 24" barrel is somewhere around 2350 fps, but I guess around 2200 fps from my short barrel. I use my 45-70 for squirrel on up.

Here's some targets-

25 yards:


100 yards:


200 yards:


And at 300 yards it is minute of deer vitals as one doe at this distance would attest.

It's just me but, I'd have a very hard time carrying and using an Marlin in 45-70 when I could have a BLR or 336 in .358 Win.

The 336 is lighter, handier and recoils a LOT less than any 45-70 with elk hunting loads. It's an easy 300 yard rifle with 225 Noslers and has a ton of lighter bullets to choose from to plink, shoot varmints or hunt deer size game with. Cases are made from readily available .308 cases.

My own .358 is a bolt action rifle and it is one of my absolute favorites. I use it in deferance to my .338 Mag, without looking back.

I have several friends here in Oregon that bought into the Marlin 45-70 for elk and they have all let them go...

Even Layne Simpson wrote that his 1895 in 45-70 is one of the hardest kickers he owns.

As usual...JMO. Get what you want and enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have used and seen used the .45-70 on elk and its a pretty dismal elk caliber IMO..even with the Noslers..It kills them but they sure can travel a long ways before they expire..I have some of these kills on tape..

I used the hard cast heavy bullets in a .45-90 and it did some better, but they still covered a lot of ground after the hit..

I know this subject stirs up the masses but its my opinion and based on experiences, not guess and by gosh, that mostly haunts the .45-70, its a real guess and by gosh caliber.

I think a 220gr @2200fps is plenty to take down an Elk, but I wonder what barrel length was used for the 35 Rem?

I personally like the Guide Gun in 45-70, mainly for it's "packability" but also because it will make a large hole in an Elk. I don't have vast experience, but the one Elk I harvested using my 45-70 left no doubt that the 45-70 will do the job.

I don't mind the recoil from a light-weight carbine and I don't notice it at all when taking a hunting shot. But I will admit that the Guide Gun with warm loads taught me the importance of mounting a gun correctly.

My .358 has 2 elk kills to date. 225 Sierra and a 225 Nosler.

The 20" barrel on my Sako carbine will get better than 2400fps and so will the 336/BLR's.

You can load spire points in the 336, too - one up the spout and one in the magazine. The BLR is clip fed and can handle them all.

There's lot's of good loads out there.

I shot a guide gun and a 444 Marlin, both with elk loads. They made my .338 mag feel like a walk in the park.

Make it fun!

My problem with both chamberings is a 200+ yard shot. Range estimation on punkin rollers is extremely inportant. Unless, I have a rangefinder, I am poor at it.

I always carry a rangefinder. BTW, here is a 300 yard target, except for the one group up top. These were fire prone, 45-70 off bags and 7mm off bipod.

Buckeye, a BLR .358 with a good 225gr bullet is far from a pumpkin roller.

With a 200 yard zero ( 2 1/2 - 3" high at 100 ) the 225 gr is 10 or 11" low at 300 yards. Plenty good for elk or even deer.

Of the 10 elk I've killed, not a single one was over 100 Yards away.... They live in the thick stuff here in Oregon and you have to root them out.

A range finder is always a good idea, regardless of the tool your packing.

blackhawk,
I agree -- I was referring to the 35 remington and the 45-70. I've got a 35 whelen and your 358 is just the short action version. 300 yards with these I can do

How about .429? (.444)

I would not select a 35 Rem for elk. Not enough "punch through" I use a M1895 in 45-70, with Speer 405 gr at 1750. Good to 150 yards. Heavy, hard cast blunt bullets work even better, especially on angled rear shots. Do not expect an elk to just drop at the shot, expecially if hit through the lungs. It takes some time for the blood loss to occur. Remington 405 grin bullets work well for deer, but are to soft for elk; not enough penetration on angled shots. Avoid any bullets under 400 grains, elk require high sectional density for deep penetration.
WYLD

I have found the 45-70 to be and excellent Elk round, more thump and penetration than can be used up on an Elk. By comparison it makes my 7mm Rem seem anemic.

Well, if you want a levergun for elk, forget about the 336 in .35 Rem. and personally I don't consider converting one to .358 a good idea. JMHO so no flames, OK? The 45-70 might be OK at the shorter ranges but would lose a lot of punch out at 200 yards or so.
So it would seem to me that your best bet would be a Browning BLR in .358 Win. For best results handloading would be necessary but that's no big deal. A 250 gr. bullet would still have sufficient punch to take an elk down without too much difficulty. I use the Hornady Spire points Interlocks or Speer Hot-cores in mine and have no problem hunting elk with my Savage 99 or BLR. I also have three bolt action rifles chambered to .358 Win. it is a very underrated cartridge saddled with the "brush gun" title by idiot gun writers who would prefer to enhance their egos by shooting the latest wonder magnums.
If you want even more punch, you could get a BLR in 30-06 and rebarrel it to .35 Whelen. That's an even better round.
The 99 Savage will be right pricey, if you can find one. There are earlier versions of the BLR, the original with the magazine that hangs down and the M81 that you might find at a better price, but browning is still making the current version in .358 and that is the way I'd go with elk on my mind.
Paul B.

I can't believe folks are suggesting that 300grn and up bullets aren't good enough to kill an elk.
I've layed the smack down on them with 150grn bullets. The first one I shot went all of 10yds.
It wouldn't bother me to take my 30-30 hunting if I was hunting timber with 100yd shots.
You're telling me you can't get a 45-70 to shoot good enough and pack enough whallop @ 200yds to kill an elk??
I guess all those old buffalo hunters were wrong.
All this talk of buy this and rebarrel to that???
Just buy you 45-70 lever and shoot...learn what the gun can really do.
Just my 2 cents worth.

what's even more amusing is that the "old buffalo hunters" didn't have the 45-70.

They had cartridges that were markedly ballistically inferior to the 45-70.

Bear in mind that the 45-70 only came out in 1873 after the buffalo were already mostly gone.

Choosing the WRONG bullet for the 45-70 is just as bad as not knowing the ballistics.

there are a whole bunch of dilusional guys out there that apply quazi african theory to north american hunting and use overly heavy "hard cast" bullets with wide meplats(like the 540gr Garrett) that wouldn't expand if you shot them into the side of the USS Iowa.

THEN they complain when the animal they shoot keeps going after the bullet "pencils through"

My thought is a 405gr bullet cast of 20:1 lead:tin will penetrate AND mushroom when driven at 1900-2100fps

at close range looking for "timber ghosts" I'd rather have a 45-70 than a long range magnum.

that big chunk of lead WILL break things.



AD

I would prefer a 348 Win., 358 Win, or a .308 in lever action over the 45-70 any day..I have seen a lot of elk shot with the 45-70 and I am not a fan of the caliber under any circumstances.

What were your experiences with the 45-70 like? And what bullets were used?

Mostly hotter handloads, and some Hornadys and Noslers...Actually the best performer I saw used was the hard cast flat nose lead bullets in my old 45-90..but even then I was not impressed..I have some of these kills on film, and these elk made a lOT of tracks before they ran out of gas...Just my opinnion based on what I have experienced and witnessed.

I won;t argue with a 45-70 user, it won't do any good, I just let them deal with it...

Ray, how does the old .33 WCF compare to the .35 Rem on the larger game?

The older writers (first half of the 1900s) seemed to like it, but the ballistics (SD and fps) aren't any better than the .30 WCF. I've wondered if that extra 10% in diameter and 20% in bullet weight really made a worthwhile difference.

The 45-70 is fine. Allan makes an excellent point about bullet choice, and I agree that you want a bullet that mushrooms nicely, just like you would choose for any other caliber for NA game. At least thats what folks used to think.

Back in th old days (1980s and early 1990s), just before the super hard cast/guide gun days, when the 45-70 was just becoming popular again in the East, people used the various 300g hollow point factory loads for deer and heavier hand loads with 400g Speer bullets for moose and big black bears. All with great results, and the reason is that these loads all had bullets that expanded well at the velocities achievable with the 45-70.

There's a reason why the factory ammo has 300g hollow points, and its not because the guys at Winchester, Remington, and Federal are all idiots. They've known for a long time that an expanding bullet is what you need for quick kills. I'm not saying I'd use these bullets for elk, but they work spectacularly on deer, and were the basis for the 45-70 revival in many parts of the country. For bigger game a relatively soft 400g bullet, mainly the 400g Speer at 17-1800fps, was popular and gives the right amount of expansion for moose and still holds together and penetrates well. It may not penetrate through 50 feet of telephone books but it can hit any bone on a big moose and still get through to cause a lot of damage and a quick kill.

I think there's a lot of bad bullet choices out there for the 45-70. The old 350 grain Hornady round nose always seemed to have a bad reputation, probably because it's designed for the 458 and is too tough for the 45-70. And I can easily see where a hard cast bullet could result in bad performance.

Going back to the original post, I dont know if I'd try a 35 Remington on anything much bigger than deer, even though I like it a lot. The 348 is a great choice for a "traditional" lever action for bigger game. Note that most 348 bullets mushroom extremely well (especially the factory 200g) and will sometimes not even exit an animal, but thats what you want in my opinion.

ASDF,
I have no experience with the 33 WCF other than shooting one or two of them at rocks on the hillside..I suspect it would compare to the 35 Remington for all practical purposes..I think both of them are good deer rifles and a bit light for elk where I hunt, but if one uses them properly then about any of them will work. I shot several elk with the lowly 25-35 in my mispent cowboy youth and with perfect results, I just had to be careful..

This is my Guide Gun experience and its worth what you paid for it.

Hard cast Beartooth 425gr Bullet jogging along at less than 1600 fps (closer to 1400 fps actually) vs. Black Bears. Both complete penetration, one of which was a North-South full length. Permanent wound channel was thumb to broomstick wide. No tracking required.

Vs. Elk, one shot East-West through the vitals, complete penetration, thumb+ permanent wound channel, no tracking required.

All of my hunting had previously been done with skinny bullets going real fast. Penetration was not reliable and tracking was required as often as not.

By all accounts, the witnesses to those events describe the performance of the 45-70 on game as "Devastating."

Also in my opinion the Guide Gun is not at all heavy and is very easy to pack around all day, even without a sling (another story)... The length makes it ideal for steep thick cover terrain.

I sight in for PBR of 125. Beyond that some holdover is required but in reality I've never had a viable shot beyond that anyway.

I shoot q hornady 350 grain flat point in my marlin 45/70. I can't see the need for a partition or an X bullet when the muzzle velocity is roughly 2000 FPS.
I have herd good reports on this bullet in africa and alaska...tj3006