I was reading in the FAQ section on the Wild West Guns website and was surprised to learn that a 2 1/2 inch 410 guage shotgun shell could be fired in a .457 Wild West Magnum. Will a 2 1/2 inch .410 shell safely chamber and fire in a standard 45/70 chamber? I realize the .457 WW Magnum is longer than the standard 45/70. The 410 shot shell capability would be useful for the ability to shoot small game and birds while packing a lever gun.

A 2 page thread here:

http://www.marlinowners.com/fo...p/topic,45873.0.html

Bruce

I have actually tried this in my Marlin guide gun, and yes, they can be made to fire.

The problem I found was that because the rim of the 410 cartridge is so thin there wasn't enough firing pin protrusion to actually make the primer go bang when the hammer dropped.

What I ended up doing is machining up a batch of 20 thou thick brass washers to slip over the 410 case to effectively thicken the rim up to allow the firing pin to hit deep enough to fire the primer.

After a few test shots were fired it became apparent the the patterns that were being thrown were extremely sparse, a small bird or animal would be quite safe at 10 yards I would think. I reckon about 5 yards would be the maximum usable range for these.

Also, the cases were badly bulged after being fired in the oversize 45/70 chamber.

So, to answer your question, yes 410's can be made to fire in a 45/70, however their effectiveness at anything over a couple of yards is very very limited indeed. You would be way ahead of the game by just using a dedicated 410 shotgun instead of going down this path.

Bruce and Avatar, Thanks for giving me great answers to my questions. I get the picture that the pattern is very close and marginal at best. I never really intended to shoot many 410 shells through a 45/70, just thought it would be handy to carry a few 410 shells in my pocket while carrying a 45/70 in case the right opportunity presented itself. I don't even own a 45/70 yet. However a Marlin lever in 45/70 or 444 is quickly rising to the top of my list of guns I'd like to buy next. I'm leaning towards the 444, maily because I already load 44 magnum and could interchange bullets. The potential of using 410 in the 45/70 gave me another reason to consider 45/70 over 444. Either one would be great in a Marlin lever gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Avatar:
So, to answer your question, yes 410's can be made to fire in a 45/70, however their effectiveness at anything over a couple of yards is very very limited indeed. You would be way ahead of the game by just using a dedicated 410 shotgun instead of going down this path.

Or a fella could play at making up some shotloads using 45/70 cases. The pattern will still be doughnut-shaped and it would still be a short-range number but he'd be using the right case for the chamber. The washers sound a lot simpler...

quote:

Originally posted by simangus:
I don't even own a 45/70 yet. However a Marlin lever in 45/70 or 444 is quickly rising to the top of my list of guns I'd like to buy next. I'm leaning towards the 444, maily because I already load 44 magnum and could interchange bullets...Either one would be great in a Marlin lever gun.

You're at an interesting spot. I chose the 45/70 myself and my only regret (other than the ports on my Guide Gun) is that a 300 grain lead bullet is as light a slug as I can find easily when it comes time for practice and plinking. A 444 would allow a fella to make up small game loads with 180 gr cast bullets at airgun velocities.

quote:

You're at an interesting spot. I chose the 45/70 myself and my only regret (other than the ports on my Guide Gun) is that a 300 grain lead bullet is as light a slug as I can find easily when it comes time for practice and plinking. A 444 would allow a fella to make up small game loads with 180 gr cast bullets at airgun velocities.

Tell me about your experience with ports on your Guide Gun. I don't have ports on any of my guns (my largest are a 338 Win Mag and a 375 H & H). I've always felt that I didn't want the extra noise. I notice that the "cutomized" guide guns tend to come with porting. Are the ports really that necessary on the short-barrelled (16.5 - 18.5 inches) guide guns?

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
You're at an interesting spot. I chose the 45/70 myself and my only regret (other than the ports on my Guide Gun) is that a 300 grain lead bullet is as light a slug as I can find easily when it comes time for practice and plinking. A 444 would allow a fella to make up small game loads with 180 gr cast bullets at airgun velocities.

I'm leaning hard towards the 444. If I were after dangerous game (big bears in Alaska or the critters in Africa that either want to stomp you or shred you) I'd definitely choose the 45/70. As for small game loads I use 240 grain soft-point (not hollow point) Nosler sporting handgun bullets with 8.5 grains of Universal Clays in my 44 magnum. I've shot a couple squirrels with my Marlin 1894 with this load and it doesn't tear them apart, just punches a clean hole through them. I wouldn't hesitate to use that bullet with a very mild load for small game from a 444. I suspect the bullet would be fine on deer too, but I've never tried it since I've had great luck with Hornady 240 grain XTP's on deer from a muzzleloader with sabbots or a handgun. (Centerfire rifles aren't legal for deer where I live so I can't use a 44 or 444 lever action on them anyway.)

quote:

Originally posted by simangus:

quote:

You're at an interesting spot. I chose the 45/70 myself and my only regret (other than the ports on my Guide Gun)...

Tell me about your experience with ports on your Guide Gun. I don't have ports on any of my guns (my largest are a 338 Win Mag and a 375 H & H). I've always felt that I didn't want the extra noise. I notice that the "customized" guide guns tend to come with porting. Are the ports really that necessary on the short-barrelled (16.5 - 18.5 inches) guide guns?

The ports make the really serious loads - Garrett's, etc - a little less unpleasant recoil and muzzle jump-wise. I usually run much milder loads through my Mjolnir but the ports are noisy all the time. I've thought about bobbing the barrel to remove the ports but I'm wondering if there's any chance a 16-1/2 inch unported barrel might be noisier than an 18-1/2 inch ported tube. Were I shopping today I'd go for the 1895SBL stainless laminated job with the full length magzine tube, XS sights, and a decent recoil pad; it comes without the blast enhancers.

Thanks for the input on muzzle breaks. That confirms what I was thinking...I'll be sure and stear clear of muzzle breaks. I agree 100% on stainless and laminated...weather resistant and miminimal exterior maintenance. I'm thinking the 444XLR. I'll shoot it a while with the factory 24 inch barrel with the intent of eventually having it shortened to 18 1/2 or 20 inches.

For some light plinking loads in a 45/70 just get yourself of some 300grn cast projectiles, lube them up with a little Alox and then load them with 10 grains of Win 231 (or other fast pistol powder). No case filler reqd.

I get around 1000fps from my GG with this load and they are dynamite on small game out to 80-90 yards, quite accurate also.
They make about the same noise as a 22mag and just drills bunnies etc neatly clean through.

quote:

Originally posted by Avatar:
For some light plinking loads in a 45/70 just get yourself of some 300grn cast projectiles, lube them up with a little Alox and then load them with 10 grains of Win 231 (or other fast pistol powder). No case filler reqd.

I get around 1000fps from my GG with this load and they are dynamite on small game out to 80-90 yards, quite accurate also.

They make about the same noise as a 22mag and just drills bunnies etc neatly clean through.

Thanks. That sort of load will be one of my winter projects. Been thinking I'll work with Trail Boss though to reduce the chances of a double charge. Wonder if a fella might try seating such a bullet backward in the case over a subsonic powder charge for wadcutter effectiveness and a load that easy to tell from his big game load. Merry Christmas (and happy Boxing Day?)

what would be wrong with a light load of bulleye and a shot capsule????... in the brass 45-70 case???

Here is some related info; shooting buckshot in a rifled barrel.

Box o' Truth link for buckshot in a rifled barrel.


Conventional thinking would lead me to believe you'd get similar results shooting a shot load out of a rifle. T/C Contender 45/410 barrels have that rifled tube to “stop the spin”

quote:

Originally posted by GunCat:
Here is some related info; shooting buckshot in a rifled barrel.

Box o' Truth link for buckshot in a rifled barrel.


Conventional thinking would lead me to believe you'd get similar results shooting a shot load out of a rifle. T/C Contender 45/410 barrels have that rifled tube to “stop the spin”

A picture is worth a thousand words. The pictures in Box 'o Truth link convinced me shotshells in a 45/70 are extremely short range at best. For small game with the 45/70 at close range I wonder if it wouldn't be simpler to aim for the head than worry about shotshells?

quote:

Originally posted by simangus:
For small game with the 45/70 at close range I wonder if it wouldn't be simpler to aim for the head than worry about shotshells?

If you pick a 444 you can load 180 grain bullets over a subsonic charge of Trail Boss and shoot the heads off grouse and bunnies as needed. If you pick a 45/70 you can do the same, but with a 300 grain bullet. All you have to do is dope the trajectory to know where they land with your rifle zero'd with your big game load.

Early on there were shotshells produced for the 45-70. These essentially turn it into a 49ga shotgun.

The French still produce shotguns with a lightly rifled twist. The effect is to open up the shot pattern. They are used for woodcock.

It is also possible to load a shot charge into a brass 45/70 case.
Again, a light charge of pistol powder held in place by a thick cardboard wad.
Dump half an ounce of No.9's on top, another thick cardboard wad on top and then lightly roll crimp the case mouth to hold everthing in place.
You will need to adjust the size of shot charge and card thicknesses to achieve a slight squeeze on the shot and powder to keep everthing tight inside the case.

These work far better than a 410 shell although the patterns are still kinda loose.
It would be easy enough to load up a batch and use them as needed in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Avatar:
It is also possible to load a shot charge into a brass 45/70 case.
Again, a light charge of pistol powder held in place by a thick cardboard wad.
Dump half an ounce of No.9's on top, another thick cardboard wad on top and then lightly roll crimp the case mouth to hold everthing in place.
You will need to adjust the size of shot charge and card thicknesses to achieve a slight squeeze on the shot and powder to keep everthing tight inside the case.

These work far better than a 410 shell although the patterns are still kinda loose.
It would be easy enough to load up a batch and use them as needed in the field.

That sounds like a good suggestion. I've never reloaded shotgun shells before. What kind of cardboard wad would you use?

quote:

Originally posted by simangus:

quote:

Originally posted by Avatar:
It is also possible to load a shot charge into a brass 45/70 case.
Again, a light charge of pistol powder held in place by a thick cardboard wad.
Dump half an ounce of No.9's on top, another thick cardboard wad on top and then lightly roll crimp the case mouth to hold everthing in place.
You will need to adjust the size of shot charge and card thicknesses to achieve a slight squeeze on the shot and powder to keep everthing tight inside the case.

These work far better than a 410 shell although the patterns are still kinda loose.
It would be easy enough to load up a batch and use them as needed in the field.

That sounds like a good suggestion. I've never reloaded shotgun shells before. What kind of cardboard wad would you use?

Any heavy card will do the trick. I try and use something maybe 1/8" thick so it has some strength and stiffness to help hold everything together tightly inside the case when you apply the crimp.
Just get yourself a wad punch (or make one up) to cut the card to the correct size for a tight fit inside the case.

These are great for snakes or birds at close range.

Happy New Year all.