The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Shooting Rim Fire Rifles & Pistols One for SaeedGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One for Saeed | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Saeed at 2:40 there is a view of the Winchester M52 accuracy records. For some reason I can no long link a video here. All I can provide is the URL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a5kL6VxTmU | ||
|
| Administrator |
Thank you for the link. Very impressive. We are in the process of running a few accuracy tests on ammo in collaboration with 22 competition shooters here. It is quite a comprehensive test, which will take some time to complete. Apparently there are endless arguments whether segregating 22 ammo by weight or rim thickness has anything to do with improving accuracy. So we agreed to run the following test on several rifles. We are gathering ammo - as many different types as are available here. We have so far over 60 different types of 22 ammo. The procedure is going to be as follows. 1. Take a box of 50, and shoot 5, 10-shot groups at 100 yards. 2. Weight 50 rounds, and shoot them as above. 3. Measure and select 50 rounds with identical rim thickness, and shoot them as above. We are hoping this will give us an idea if either method has any advantage. | |||
|
| One of Us |
And then there will be those in a snit on how the accuracy was measured. Sounds like a great test to me and I am anxious to see the results. | |||
|
| One of Us |
On one of the .22 rimfire sites there is discussion about what firing pin position gives the best accuracy. Some like 12 o'clock some like 6:00 o'clock. Some like a firing pins at both positions. If you are slow firing a single shot there is a good chance you can improves accuracy by chambering a rifle with a really tight chamber.
| |||
|
| Administrator |
Well, I have been using some of the best 22 rifles, and every type of ammo I can get my hands on, for so many years. And I totally agree with Larry Brown for giving up on this accuracy. 22 ammo can be extremely good sometimes. But, consistency is certainly does not exist in 22 rim fire ammo. Even the best ammo from the likes of Eley and Lapua, which are very good - but do exhibit the odd bad round. We have given up using those group measuring devices, and measure the groups by that old fashioned method of just using a digital micrometer. I measure the furthest points of the group, and subtract a bullet diameter. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Saeed You might make chamber cast of your best chambers Or measure your chambers with a set of pin gauges. You will have to work on your own process to measure the chamber length. Then compare to the dimensions of your ammo. As an example the .22 WMR which has an even worse reputation for erratic accuracy has silly dimensions when you compare the ammo dimensions to the chamber dimensions. The .22 LR is sensitive to how you hold it. I once shot on the same range with 2 world class women shooters - Sue Ann Sandusky and Schuler Helbing. Schuler's dad said they shot better prone with a sling than with a bench rest. I saw many 1" groups at 100 yards while they were testing ammo. (using aperture sights BTW) According to the dad, testing the ammo in the wind helped cull out the erratic lots. | |||
|
One of Us |
Nice video, I really wish I had an M52 of my own. It is on my list!
I'd say the past few decades of competition have validated tight match chambers, I don't think you'll see a competitive rifle in a prone or benchrest match without one. With the inevitable variance in .22lr ammo (even the best match ammo), I'm wondering if any have tried chambering to fit the exact lot # of ammo, rather than find the lot # of ammo for the barrel/chamber? Check this out for some testing on 12 vs. 6 o'clock firing pins: http://landy-smallboreprecisio...n-killough-test.html Options, options! 
I am looking forward to seeing your results, and thanks for taking the time and expense to do the testing. "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am sure that you could sort through same tests of several large lots to find the one that is the most consistent with a tight chambered match rifle. One you have located a superior lot make your chamber to match that lot diamter and lenght. Buy a large quantity of the ammo lot after confirming it shoots well in the custom chamber. | |||
|
| Administrator |
Below is the conclusion of the gentleman who did the tests on different position of the firing pins. I remember some rifles having the firing pin at 3 O'clock too. "...I’m going to state my conclusions very carefully and I want you to pay scrupulous attention to where I place the parenthesis in the following statement: With “these” specific rifles, “these” specific bolts, “these” specific headspaces, and “this” specific test….there is nothing in the data to suggest either pin is significantly different as regards velocity, uniformity of velocity, or accuracy. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference, it just means this test didn't show it..." | |||
|
| One of Us |
+1 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Landy is very stringent about basing conclusions he makes on statistically significant evidence, something I respect. For what it's worth, the casings in my photo above were (left to right): Nail driver gun, Suhl 150-1 (12:00), Turbo (12:00), and Stiller Copperhead (12:00 and 6:00 dual pin). I believe Stiller makes another action that can be 12:00 or 6:00 and you can swap the pin either way. The nail driver gun case was included in the photo because it was for a discussion on firing pins (forget 12 and 6, what if the pin could hit the entire rim???). This rimfire stuff is fun, mysteries and all! "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
|
| One of Us |
He left out "this" specific ammo.
| |||
|
| One of Us |
So? I guess I don't understand your post. | |||
|
| One of Us |
He qualified everything but the ammo. I would add that the only top rimfire shooters that I was around were 2 world class women match shooters. The father of the younger one built her rifle complete including the action. He said that testing the ammo in the wind was the best way to test it. That was on a windy range near Weatherford,Texas. He had them test cases of Eley shooting prone. The good ammo was saved for matches. The also ran ammo was used for practice. My point to make here is that testing indoor may not predict the ammo that shoots the the best.
| |||
|
one of us |
Didn't some experimenter come up with a double firing pin for rim fire? So that the rim got bashed on opposite sides at the same time. Remington seems to be my nemesis, there's at least one dud per box of 50. I taken the misfire and rotate it and hit it again several times on different locations on the rim with it still not firing. I will give the measuring of the rim width, not thickness and see if there's difference. The tolerances in my S&W 617 seems tighter then my High Standard, in rim width. Then I'll try the rim thickness. Jim "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, Eley has 3 ammo test centers in the World and they are inside. West Virginia University is current and 16 times NCAA champions use both an indoor range and Eley's test center. I've visited with Jon Hammond about testing. You test inside to get the best ammo for your particular rifle. | |||
|
| Administrator |
And Federal came with the dimple in the middle of the base too. No one has been able to get rid of fliers in 22 ammo. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don't think so. Your source would not stand a chance shooting against Schuyler Helbing and Sue Ann Sandusky prone with iron sights. The source of my information was John Chapman, Helbing's step father a mentioned below. If you shoot outdoors the variable velocities of the ammo cause variable point of impact in the wind. A bit about Sue Ann Sandusky 1972 NRA Collegiate All American –First Team 1973 NRA Collegiate All American – First Team 1974 NRA Collegiate All American – Second Team 1974 National Women’s Air Rifle Champion 1975 National Women’s Standard Rifle Prone Champion 1977 Championships of the Americas Team – Mexico City, Mexico. (Gold individual medal and gold team medal in 50m Standard Rifle Prone. Gold team medal in Women’s Air Rifle.) 1977 United States Distinguished International Shooter Badge 1978 National Women’s Air Rifle Champion 1978 National Women’s Standard Rifle Prone Champion 1978 World Shooting Championships – Seoul, Korea. (Gold individual and team medals in 50m Standard Rifle Prone. Gold team medal in Women’s Air Rifle.) 1980 National Women’s Standard Rifle Prone Champion 1980 National Smallbore Rifle Distinguished – Position 1983 CISM Games – Fort Benning, Georgia. (Silver individual in Women’s Standard Rifle 3x20.) 1983 World Air Gun Championship – Innsbruck, Austria 1987 U.S. Army Distinguished Rifleman Badge 1987 Presidents Hundred Tab - Rifle. Also a USOC member among other things. An article about Schuyler Helbing Schuyler Helbing is assuming the proportions of an Annie Oakley legend. Last August, at Camp Perry, Ohio, she pulled off a hat trick, taking her third straight title in the women's smallbore prone division. She then bagged her first "junior title" competing against young men. Schuyler turned 17 before the meet had ended, two full years before she will graduate from the "junior" category. She was taught to shoot by her stepfather John Chapman, a wholesale meat dealer in Fort Worth, Tex., who sidelines in gunsmithery for the likes of the U.S. Olympic team. At 14 Schuyler was the youngest woman ever named to the NRA's topflight "Randall Team."
| |||
|
| One of Us |
sr4759, I not going to put all the preceding post in a quote on this. I think the ladies you referred to were great. Would you let them post how they test ammo? Below is an email from Eric Uptagrafft. 2012 Olympic Games, 16th Place 2012 World Cup London, 6th Place 2012 World Cup Milan, 5th Place 2011 World Cup Final Wroclaw, Silver Medalist (Prone) 2011 World Cup Changwon, Silver Medalist (Prone) 2011 World Cup USA, 5th Place (Prone) 2011 World Cup Sydney, Silver Medalist (Prone) 2010 World Championship, 7th Place (Prone), Team Gold Medal 2010 World Cup USA, Silver Medalist (Prone) 2010 World Cup Sydney, 6th Place (Prone) 2010 World Cup Beijing, Bronze Medalist (Prone) 2009 World Cup Beijing, 5th Place (Prone) 2007 Munich World Cup, 5th Place (Prone) 2006 World Championship, Team Gold Medal (Prone) 2006 World Cup China, 4th Place (Prone), 7th Place (3 Position) 2006 World Cup Brazil, 5th Place (3 Position), 9th Place (Prone) 2006 World Cup Final, 4th Place (Prone) 2003 Pan American Games, Silver Medalist (3 Position) 2002 World Championship, Silver Medalist (3 Position) 2001 Championship of the Americas, Silver Medalist (Prone), Bronze (Air) 1996 Olympic Games, 30th Place (Prone) 2005 World Cup Final, Gold Medalist (Prone) 2005 World Cup USA, Silver Medalist (Prone) 2004 World Cup Sydney, Gold Medalist (Prone) 2003 World Cup Final, Bronze Medal (Prone) 2003 World Cup USA, Gold Medalist (Prone) Butch, We do 95% of our ammo testing indoors. If you are trying to pick out a lot outdoors, there is just too much variation that the conditions add. Also, there are probably only 3-4 shooters in the US who can really tell anything about ammo testing with iron sights from the prone position. The rest of them are just guessing or blowing smoke. Initially we narrow down our lot selection out of a machine rest and pick out the best 5-6 lots. Then we test with a scope at 50m off a good rest, also indoors. This is also where I adjust my tuner. We further narrow our lot selection down to 2-3 best lots and then shoot them outdoors with iron sights. This is where we see if the ammo shoots in the wind or if it needs additional tuning. In my opinion there are only two of us at the AMU who can do this effectively. For us the whole process of ammo testing on a new barrel can last up to two weeks and 2000 rounds. If the barrel isn't up to snuff it will be a much shorter ammo test. Good Luck, Eric I will add to this as this post progresses. | |||
|
| one of us |
Butch, I'd like clarification on who the 3-4 US shooters who can really tell anything about ammo testing with iron sights from the prone position are? I would find this almost as interesting as the test results and hope that Eric can supply this list. Thanks, Minkman | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
One of Us |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR4759: I don't think so. Your source would not stand a chance shooting against Schuyler Helbing and Sue Ann Sandusky prone with iron sights. The source of my information was John Chapman, Helbing's step father. Well, Eley has 3 ammo test centers in the World and they are inside. West Virginia University is current and 16 times NCAA champions use both an indoor range and Eley's test center. I've visited with Jon Hammond about testing. You test inside to get the best ammo for your particular rifle.[/QUOTE Yes, if you are going to compete indoors. As anyone experienced with a lot of rimfire rifles outdoors knows ...some bullets "fly" better than others in the wind. Shooting outdoor matches or head-shooting squirrels is a very difficult wind proposition sometimes. So, the bullets which perform best in the wind may actually be a little more accurate in field conditions than the ammo which was most accurate indoors. Once in a while, therefor, it is a real advantage to test outdoors from prone, in the wind. (Particularly true anywhere matches are still held at the old U.S. competition standard ranges... 100, 200, and 300 yards.) My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alberta, Did you read Eric's full post. They machine test indoors, A shooter tests next indoors, and then they take the best 2-3 lots outdoors. College kids shoot indoors only. Waiting to hear the scores of West Virginia and Kentucky's final match. #1 against #2. I did hear that WVU set a new airgun record today. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I had to delete my post about West Virginia loosing to #2 U. Kentucky today. I didn't check the whole post from the Kentucky newspaper. It was dated 2011. The Mountaineers did win today 4702-4688. Sure makes me happier. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia