Strictly talking survival and/or defensive weapon here. When faced with
starvation or defense, and when all laws have been broken down to the
point it becomes survival of the fittest, law of the jungle situation. Not
suggesting breaking any current laws, just what rifle would suffice in the
above situation.

I'm thinking .22 Magnum. Using proper bullets for the size of critter one
is after, I'm wondering if this wouldn't be the best all-round cartridge. A
hundred rounds wouldn't be overly hard to carry. Poachers routinely use
them on deer, and rabbits & squirrels can be easily had. Improvements
in different bullets have made the .22 Mag much more accurate than they
were with lead bullets. Never was too impressed with the round prior to
such improvements, and therefore have never even shot one, let alone
owned one.

I'm thinking CZ455. What are your thoughts?

I have a Magnum Research semi auto that is a Ruger 10-22 clone with improvements and takes Ruger magazines.
It is very accurate, can unload in semi auto fashion. Concerning the ammo and it's effectiveness, you are 100% correct.

I'm thinking that a couple of cast nets and some trot lines are going to be much cheaper and simpler in the long run, and provide a more reliable source of food. Get some rat traps and a jar of cheap peanut butter and you will be even further ahead.

However, other than in movies history has shown us that people do not survive that long when alone, it is only by forming communities that they can remain intact IMHO. So in that regards I think getting a bunch of cheap BB guns and starting a neighborhood gun club would probably be miles ahead over any rimfire rifle discussion in a SHTF scenario.

At any rate, in regards to a possible doomsday "TEOTWAWKI", there was a discussion last year about another "survivalist" forum and it was decided there were enough other forums on the internet on that subject.

ANYWAY.... getting back to your question on the 22 magnum, I think it is really a nice round and much more versatile than a 22 LR. However, they are damned expensive for just plinking (figure 20-25 cents a round). You can reload a lot of stuff cheaper than that, or you can get 22 LR for 4 cents a round. It isn't legal to use rifles for turkeys where I live, but if it was a 22 WMR would be a good caliber for those or coyotes up to 100 yards. So if you have a particular use for a 22 WMR it is a good choice, but otherwise the 22 LR is cheaper or reloaded centerfire ammo is often both better as well as cheaper.

Mark, ya made some good points. As long as the
traps caught field rats & not sewer rats...guess
that would depend on where ya placed them. I
would have to be starving to make a steady diet
of fish....they're ok once a month.

Yes, there is another motive in this. I have the
perfect coon/coyote rifle, but it is illegal for
use for coons here in Iowa. Distances where
coons are called in the woods because of all
the brush can also call up ol' Wile E. at less
than 100yds. The .22 mag could also be perfect
for that combo. I have a .17HMR, but it is
almost not enough for coons, let alone coyotes.
In my opinion, at least for me, the 17 does
not have enough horse power.

Again, anyone have any experience with the
CZ455 in .22 Mag.?

Any pre 68 with out serial number brought on the open market

22lr for me one you can buy more the twice the number of LR compared to the mag.

Then no one can trace it back to you If one would have to drop it and leave it.

I'd be inclined towards 22 RF, relatively quiet and a box of 50 weighs nothing. Plus the ammunition can be shared with a pocket pistol (not that the small ones are very reliable in 22 RF).

I would go with 22 LR. Very accurate and dependable. Carry a bunch of ammo in your pockets. I have owned several 22 mags and have not been impressed with any of them. If I was going for yotes I would use 22-250 and reach out and touch them. Good shooting

I'm partial to the Ruger 10/22 .22lr with a couple of Butler Creek 25 round mags and also a Marlin 60 laminated stock for a SHTF rifle.

You would be surprised at the killing power of the .22lr in taking game bigger than most would believe. The killing range is greater than thought also. I've killed "things" at long ranges with a 40g solid.

And while not a "stopper" for SD it would sure hurt and make me turn tail and run after getting shot a couple of time with it.

Since I would be carrying some sort of centerefire rifle, I will recommend 2 choices.

First is the Browning takedown 22LR.

Second, is probably the best 22 LR for the Bad Days on the Planet.
The Ruger 10/22, in what ever variation you like...

They work great for "standard days" on the Planet as well.

I lean heavily toward .22LR. The reasons being: 1). cost and availability of ammo (at least until reciently). 2). noise- the last thing I'd want is to inform everyone for half a mile in all directions what I'm up to.

I spent a lot of time around a lot of Old Codgers back in my formative years- most whom had a lot of first hand experence with poaching to get themselves and their familys through hard times, and they universally recomended .22 LR- preferably standard velocity and non-hollow point. I respect their wisdom.

In my particular case, my choices for SHTF tools are: 1) Marlin M39A (in this case one made in 1939), with a Lyman micrometer peep sight, and 2). a 10 year old CZ 452 LUX with a 2-10x weaver. Both are accurate enough to their specific jobs, quiet (24" and 25" barrels, respectfully), and they're simple enough to fix myself, even if I have to make the parts myself with what I have on hand.

Actually, I have a .22 Magnum Improved that I enjoy a lot. It's also called a .25-20. The brass is reloadable, and it takes cast boolets like it was made for them!

Just my $.02 worth....

Porosonik.

TomP

You make a good point, most little 22LR semiautos are not very reliable.

I can only recommend two semiauto 22LR handguns.
First the S&W Mod 41, second, the original Ruger semiauto.
Neither of which is very small, but they are very reliable.

For a small reliable 22LR handgun take a look at the S&W Mod 34, either in 4" or in 2" barrels. I have shot both fo them and they are suprisingly accurate as well.

The main, biggest advantage of the 22LR is that you can carry a LOT of ammo. IF your guns are properly sighted in, AND you can shoot, you can do a lot of things with a 22LR...

For a survival rifle after a breakdown in society...I would opt to a .22 Hornet. I could probably figure out a way to reload it for a long time.

From what I have seen, a .17 Win Super Mag is looking very good for such a situation. They are very light, yet at 3000 fps, can take game or defend against 2-legged predators out to 300 yards easily. Carrying one and a couple hundred rounds of ammo would be less weight than any centerfire.

This is posted in the Rimfire forum so the only practicable choices for cartridge are .22 rimfire, .22 magnum rimfire, and the .17's. However, for all around use I think most would agree it comes down to the .22 cals.

A few points, far short of all inclusive -

.22 rimfire

cheap

ubiquitous

game getter

most effective at short range

subsonic loads available

all loads are lead, gilded lead, copper washed, or similar

marginal for self defense unless up close


.22 magnum

less cheap

harder to find then .22LR

better for medium game than .22LR

effective at longer range than .22LR

no subsonic loads available

loads are jacketed lead

better for self defense

very loud


An ideal firearm for the purposes under discussion would be one that can handle both .22 rimfire and .22 magnum cartridges. But the only weapons I can think of that can do so are revolvers with interchangeable cylinders. My personal experiences with .22LR and .22 Mag revolvers has left me unimpressed with the performance of either. So, I would rule out a revolver.

I think a bolt action rifle brings extra weight without extra firepower. So I would rule out a bolt action .22 for this exercise.

The .22 Mag has special chamber requirements to get it to function properly in semi-autos. Sometimes this causes problems. But I think a .22 Mag pump rifle or lever rifle would have promise.

The .22LR is very reliable in semi-autos but it gets them dirty very quickly and some ammunition is rather corrosive. But, as above, I think a .22 rimfire pump rifle or lever rifle would have promise.

Okay, I'm going to make my choice.

I would choose a lightweight .22LR pump like a nice old Winchester Model 62 or a new Henry Pump Action Octagon.

It is light, accurate, and relatively reliable.

Many rounds can be carried in the magazine (15 rounds of long rifle or 21 rounds of short in the Henry)

It can be fired rapidly if needed. Think firepower.

It is easy to operate and reload with one hand. Think emergency.

It can shoot shorts and CB caps. These are subsonic rat and rabbit killers you can also shoot at those times you don't want to be discovered.

It can shoot the full assortment of .22lr ammo, including the hyper rounds. These are flat shooting cartridges with a little extra energy that are loud enough that you can shoot them at those times you want to be found.


However, if I had to have one SHTF rifle it wouldn't be a rimfire and it would be and AR.

.

quote:

However, if I had to have one SHTF rifle it wouldn't be a rimfire and it would be and AR.

Since I think, given your scenario, self defense is at least as likely a consideration as survival, I'd totally agree with the above, either a bolt or an AR. One reason is that there are a lot of military rounds out there that could be accessed, one way or another, if there was a total societal breakdown.

Your scenario doesn't specify circumstances but IF I was completely alone, a .22 LR might be fine, because I would be deep in the woods and laying low until I saw how the situation developed. There is a big advantage to the .22 LR as well, relative silence, a rifle and .22s don't make much or a report.

OTOH, if I was with a group, such as my family, friends, or whatever, then the .223 would be much more attractive because there would likely be much more need to use it for self defense. Dogs would really become man's best friend as well. A shovel and an axe would be on my list as well.

If it was total survival of the fittest, no laws, no organized groups, food had been very scarce, kids were hungry, and you shot someone in self defense, would you eat him?

If you live in the city, you had better be on the move, so one of the criteria is portability. That would make the 22lr a prime candidate. For about the same weight, one can carry 500 rounds of 22lr as they can 20-30 rounds of 223 in an AR clip and the rifle can be much more compact. In a real bad situation, I can make a 22lr rifle pretty easily as well.

If you really do have a place to go out of the city, then either the 22lr or 223 would suffice since you will be making a silencer for it anyway.

.22 WMR for me. It adds moose & bears to the menu, and I have a lifetime stash of ammo to start with.
I'd probably grab my ancient single shot Mossberg 640 with a shortened barrel; it weighs next to nothing and shoots SO well.
That, a few rolls of snare wire and a few fish hooks and you're good for the winter.

First SHTF rifle, the one I'd keep in my hands is a 10-22

I would have something stronger slung across my back, but what I think the 22LR semi-auto really shines at is NOT drawing a lot of attention.

Should society fail entirely a 22LR is so easily suppressed... thus drawing even less unwanted attention
(is there ever "wanted" attention in a SHTF survival scenario?)

With the common high velocity ammo there is still a sonic crack, with standard velocity ammo there is not.

as for "Something stronger" it would NOT by intention be a 22 center-fire, generally if I feel the need to make a whole bunch of noise I'm going to make it something capable of killing anything, which means a 7mm or 30cal center-fire at least as powerful as a 7.62 NATO (an AR10 type platform in 7mm-08 would work but then again so would any 30-30 lever gun

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

If it was total survival of the fittest, no laws, no organized groups, food had been very scarce, kids were hungry, and you shot someone in self defense, would you eat him?

"Long Pig", as it's known in some quarters.

To feed one's self, a 22 RF bolt action gun would be perfect.

For self defense, any a AR or bolt rifle in the military caliber of where you are.

As has been mentioned above, military ammo can be found in every country of the world, despite all the restrictions.

I don't believe there is a single rifle for a survival/SHTF scenario but the 22 rimfire is definitely on list. I would have to add another for defense against dangerous game and people. I agree that a current military round is best but the only round that is truely "suitable" in my mind is the 308. (USA) I don't own a 308 any more but I do have a 3006 that will perform the same tasks with a slight margin but I would have to depend on the thousands of cases that I have due to the fact that there would be no source to get new ammo.

Just get a 223. Between an AR and a bolt rifle you are 90% set.

About five years ago I found once-fired 223 brass that had been shot in a Police Range. 3.5-cents apiece. I bought six thousand or so. The RO also had about 3500 rounds of 308W for a penny a case more.

A 55gr RFN cast bullet in the 223 at about 1600fps is nearly silent thru my YHM can.

I am growing very fond of my 300 BLK AR-pistol. With the YHM 9mm can and 250gr cast at 1060 or so fps it is undetectable.

Get a 223 and a good silencer for it. Learn how to cast. Two hours a day with a 4-cavity NOE mold that casts a 55-62gr RFN for a month and you have a ten year supply. IF TSHTF worrying about anything else except keeping yourself and your family safe is minor...

Have found that the Savage FVSR 22 LR bolt rifle with a can is most discrete ... as is the 300 BLK with a 30 cal can.

What will you carry when foraging/hunting for food?

And what will you want if you are surprised by a mean 3-400 pound black bear?

The compromise is always something of an interesting problem.

If the point is to keep a low profile when possible, a suppressed small bore rifle is a good tool if backed up with a handgun of substantial caliber.

I agree with Mike. I have a Savage bolt action with threaded barrel as well as a suppressor that fits on it. Nice rig. I also have a GSG-5 semi auto that seems pretty nice as well.
Peter.