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Did you try same rim from among the same weight? Also, you found that 25% of the ammo shot better right from the box, mixed. Perhaps there is a certain weight that shoots better. When a high percentage of that particular weight was in the mix it might account for the mix shooting better. There may be an "ideal" bullet weight for .22LR ammo in that rifle. I really like these tests. Thanks for conducting them and posting the results. . | |||
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Thank you for these test. All this is very informative and I know that it is a lot of work. The new format works, keeping the data separate from the comments. How many cartridges did you have to weigh to get 5 groups of 10 cartridges in which all 10 had the same weight? I recently weighed 449 Eley Edge, sorted into 0.1 grain groups. Max wt was 51.8 gr (2) and min wt was 50.8 gr (4). But only 4 weight groups provided 50 or more cartridges; 51.2 (66); 51.3 (92); 51.4 (103); 51.5 (74). | |||
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"16 types of ammo shot better without selecting either weight or rim thickness. This is from a total of 63 types shot. This equates to 25.4%. 25 types of ammo shot better when selected by weight. This equates to 39.7%. 22 types of ammo shot better when the rim thickness was selected. This equates to 34.9%." Though at first glance it looks kind of random, I must say ... AHA! Obviously the same weight ammo shoots better! Not exactly massively statistically significant, but it is the leading factor here. Even with the top-performing Lapua Polar Biathlon: Ammo ................... Mixed Weights/ Same Weight/ Same Rims Lapua Polar Biothelon ... 0.6488/ 0.6262/ 0.6644 ... as well as with the average-performing Federal American Eagle (my favorite bargain-priced plinker): Federal American Eagle ... 1.4354/ 1.2088/ 1.2218 Could it be that the difference in weight comes from the factory thrown powder charges, or the amount of primer in the rim? Is this purely a scientific endeavor or are you looking for an edge for a tournament shooter? Hessa or Walter? Walter needs all the help he can get.  No sorting:  Sorted by weight:  Sorted by rim thickness:  | |||
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Well, we actually pulled off a few bullets, and tried to weigh the powder charges, primed cases, and bullets. But, I gave up on that endeavor as being very time consuming, and there is no way we can alter the results. For example, it would have been interesting if we were able to load these rounds again, and see how they perform. But, as that is not possible, we gave up on doing it. The well known brands - Eley, Lapua, RWS - had the most consistent bullet weights. Some of the cheaper ammo had quite a variations in bullet weights, and that showed in the sorting process. I will weigh 100 of each type of ammo, and post the break down of the weight distribution. Come to think of it, I have some of this data already. I finish the rest and post the results. Ron, We are not doing anything scientific here, as sadly, one has no control over 22 ammo, as I mentioned above. All we are trying to do is satisfy a curiosity of why is 22 ammo so inconsistent. And whether weighing and rim thickness separation has any meaningful results. | |||
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Should be very interesting to see any "weights" you might tabulate. The best hope for Walter may be that he shoot only Lapua Polar Biathlon ammo that has been sorted for BOTH weight and rim thickness. Also a seeing-eye trigger dog for Walter if machine rest is not allowed. | |||
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Walter is not allowed to do anything that requires any sort of consistency! | |||
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I have updated the test above with weights of some of the ammo. I will add the rest of the weights later on. | |||
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DAMN!!!! Two things and both are just smart assed comments. You have too much time on your hands and way too much money in them!! Ok, to the serious part. How often did you clean the bore? How many shooters were there? How long per session? We all know there's a limit as to how long we can hold our best groups before fatigue gets us. Do you see any wear in the bore of this rifle yet? any idea how many rounds have gone thru this bore? How many shots in all for this test? Other than one hell of a bunch. Many thanks for going thru all this and sharing the results. Some mighty impressive shooting for a .22 @ 100yds regardless of anything else being considered. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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The test was done over a period of several months. Rifle barrel never cleaned. That is why we shot 10 rounds of each type of ammo before shooting it. To remove any trace of lube remaining from the previous lot. Only one shooter - me. Maximum 3 types of ammo were shot in one day. Never heard of 22 rimfire rifles bore getting worn out. 63 types of ammo multiplied by 160 = 10,080! | |||
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Saeed, Thanks for that, very informative. One question: Do you think that sorting ammo for both rim thickness and weight would add any more consistency? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Frank, Personally, I doubt it will make any meaningful difference. In fact, I might do just that, with a types of ammo. There is no way I would do that with all of them. It is extremely time consuming. The test above has taken me several months. I am setting up a BRNO CZ 455 rifle as my next test rifle. I probably will not start that until may be March. | |||
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Yep, never clean the barrel/bore of a 22RF. Two questions, Saeed, most gracious host and most excellent shooter with too much time and money on hand: 1. Does this mean that the Lapua Polar Biathlon ammo is the most uniform by weight and also the most accurate by your shooting? "Lapua Polar Biothelon 52.0 - 27 52.1 - 49 52.2 -24" 2. When are you going to learn how to spell "biathlon" or is Walter to blame for the editing?  | |||
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Ron, Only in this rifle, at this time. How this ammo will fair in other rifles is anyone's guess. | |||
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Thanks for the detailed results Saeed, very interesting. Your Bleiker is an amazing rifle!
Check this out, you may find it interesting: http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
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I was weighing the Fiocchi TT Sport yesterday, and what a shocker that was. The weight varied from 50.0 to 56.5 grains!!?? I have also selected 50 rounds of Lapua Polar Biothlon - Thanks for the correction Doc!  All have the same weight, and I have segregated each ten rounds into the same rim thickness. I will try shooting them later today and let you all know what goes. | |||
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I have updated the test with the results of the Lapua Polar Biathlon where the ammo was weighed and rim thickness checked. | |||
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 96% A+ shooting there.  Minus 4% for only 2 flyers out of 50 shots. Caused by either Walter bumping Saeed's elbow, or the evil spirit of unidentifiable randomness? Have you considered stroking a lucky rabbit's foot before each trigger pull? Machine rest?  | |||
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RIP, Both those fliers had a distinctly louder sound. | |||
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Then there must be some irregularity in the propellant mixture? Some flakes of powder are not standard? Maybe the chemical composition varies, or the flakes clump together in some way, so as to affect the burn? This might be the long sought after randomness beyond Quality Assurance detection? There is such a tiny amount of propellant in the cartridge that the occasional tiny irregularity in propellant becomes apparent, as it gets segregated into one cartridge while the others are uniform. In a cartridge with a larger powder charge the random powder irregularities get averaged out by their smaller effect on the overall larger charge, and if the powder charge is large enough, then every cartridge may contain some of this "randomness," indeed the irregularities may be plus or minus in effect and compensating errors will "uniform" the load also. Let us call this the "powder bogey." Some 22RF cartridges contain a powder bogey, and some do not. There is no way of eliminating this unless you analyze every flake of powder and handload your own 22RF with specially selected flakes. Of course that is a "flakey idea."  It does seem that sorting for both identical weight plus identical rim thickness helps, but there is always going to be the occasional flyer. OK Saeed, you could not do any better with a machine rest. You are a machine rest. And you are getting closser to the correct spelling of "biAthlon." | |||
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That's some pretty steady shooting Saeed! | |||
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If flyers are inevitable due to the "powder bogey" in such tiny cases with tiny amounts of powder, then 22RF competition is like finding a corner to sit in, in a round room. This is a game best played in small groups of individuals to the sound of music, like "musical chairs" but the music never stops. | |||
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This is why rimfire target shooting competitors will rigorously test lot #s from their preferred brand of ammo to weed out the good from the bad and ugly, even with the top level Eley and Lapua ammo. I don't weigh my ammo, I just shoot it. It is a never-ending game... it seems the sources for variation are endless. Also, are the "fliers" we see in those groups truly statistical outliers or just part of the "group" that rifle will shoot with that given lot # of ammo?? I wonder what those 50 shots of Lapua Polar Biathlon would look like stacked on top of each other in one group- imagine what 500 shots would look like. Those "fliers" could just disappear into the expanded group with a larger sample size, no? To me a flier means the bullet went WAY out of the group or target and into the stratosphere- I mean inches off POI, not fractions of an inch. It seems inevitable that rimfires will show some degree of inconsistency in the form of "fliers" even at the highest level like Saeed and his Blieker with Lapua, and the question is just how much. "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
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Well, I just had an eye opener! We got a brand new BRNO CZ 455 in 22 WMR, and I thought I will try some of the ammo we have in it. If the 22 LR seems a bit finicky, this is down right atrocious! In fact, some are so bad I am unable to shoot 5 groups on one sheet of paper!! I will post my results when finished. | |||
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That is disappointing to hear about the CZ 455. Are you planning on trying some other barrels with the rifle? I understand Lilja is making drop-ins. "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
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I love Lilja barrels! I have one on my 375/404 which has been to Africa many times. But, sadly, because of the "anti-terror" laws in the US, trying to get one exported in exercise in futility. I do have some Lilja rim fire barrels here, and I could replace it myself if required. But, I think the trouble is not the rifle, but rather the ammo. So much discrepancy in their performance. I did replace a BRNO CZ 452 barrel, that was neglected and rusted, with a Lilja barrel which I chambered myself with a match reamer. The rifle belongs to a friend, and he says it shoots as good as the Anschutz 64 Match rifle. Incidentally, we have used Lilja barrels for many years - luckily we got a good stock of them a few years ago. Even in large calibers like 458 Winchester, 404 Jeffrey and the various 416 magnums and 460 Weatherby. Without exception, all rifles shoot 3 shot groups that cut each other. We use our own Walterhog bullets in them. | |||
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That's a shame Saeed, of course "they" always know what's best for us. A steel pipe with a .22" ID is a very dangerous thing indeed, I saw one attack a man last week. I've heard .22WMR ammo can be less accurate than .22LR ammo but I have only ventilated some vermin with a .22WMR and not paper from the bench. Maybe because the .22WMR is not used in competition like the .22LR? "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
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Saeed In a thread a while back I described the 22WMR as being a cartridge & chamber that must have been designed by a rabbit to give itself the best chance of surviving The specifications of cartridge & chamber have such wide tolerances in the specifications as to beggar the mind at the looseness in the commercial offerings cartridges almost always manufactured with the smallest diameter within the tolerances , barrels chambered significantly larger diameter than the case diameter. Excessive freebore , to the extent that the current rage of +V cupped projectiles are barely engaged in the case at bore contact with a "mean" chamberlength at spec . Anything over mean spec , but within chamber tolerance would be a lucky dip in achieving contact between bore & case in that nanosecond after ignition. an illuminating exercise is examining the PTG spec sheet for chamber/reamer dimensions of the various 22WMR riflemakers............and comparing those specs to the corresponding dimensions of the ammo you have ...............drawing your own conclusions before committing a lovely Lilja .224 barrel to chambering in WMR format. Having pulled & weighed the components of a number of 22WMR ammunition brands , characterisation of my conclusion is that manufacturing tolerances ( within brand & model) are insignificantly different to those of the quality 22LR 'hunting grade' ammunition manufacturers. The fit of ammunition to chamber with considerably larger "free space" in every dimension compared to equivalent 22LR, appears the culprit in producing such woeful groups with 22WMR. Should you have desire to chamber a nice barrel in 22WMR I would be happy to loan you a PTG Match 22WMR reamer I had made & sent to Oz at considerable investment in time. ( used twice, 1 x test chamber in 'soft' steel ; 1 x CM barrel chamber ). My rifle is still a work-in-progress & will not be suitable for testing commercial 22WMR ammunition as it has a 7" twist barrel & is set up for use with 60gn sub-sonic loads . Yes some of us do some "unusual" things just for the heck of it. | |||
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Denis, We have several rifles in 22WMR, and as you said just for the heck of it, I will try them for accuracy with the ammo we have at hand. You mention that the rifle you are building is not for use with commercial ammo. May I ask what ammo you are going to use? | |||
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You don't wear out the bore on a .22 rimfire is one of the reasons I took up bullet casting. I don't shoot .22 magnums as I can shoot cast in my .22 centerfires much cheaper and a lot more zip. I'm sure Saeed has considered this to save money too. | |||
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What I meant by that was its not going to be used with commercial HV loads The ammunition is pulled 22WMR reloaded with 60gn projectile & sufficient powder to achieve only 1000fps ( just under 4gn instead of the typical WMR load of around 7 gns does the job). - modified Hornet dies & 25ACP shellholder. | |||
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That thought was bothering me too, as iff a control was neglected. Then I considered the possibility that larger case measurements may actually correlate with heavier weights due to more material. I don't know how a 22 is swaged and constructed but I would imagine the variance in the brass pig to have some measurable effect on overall weight and potentially internal volume. I am assuming external variances in OAL are much more closely controlled in the process by design. I don't know how you would go about it, but two questions come to mind for Saeed 1) Did you notice any correlation between size and weight, even anecdotal, that you can remember? 2) do you think weighing and noting weights before firing and then weighing the fired cases from specific bullets that you might see anything surprising? It wouldn't require benching for accuracy, although your cool-off procedure would still come into play. Maybe. It may not make a difference. | |||
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