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Gentlemen, I got one of these i an exchange a while back, and have not had the chance to shoot it. A couple of days ago, I installed a Leupold 8.5-25 scope on it, and gathered all the different kinds of rim fire ammo that we have. My intention is to try them all, shooting 5 5-shot groups of each at 50 yards, then at 100 yards, and see what results we get. It wold be interesting if any of you has one of these rifles, and may be compare results. | ||
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I'll be waiting to see how it shoots. I have not owned that rifle, but did own a Walther heavy target rifle that was very accurate. Can't remember it's model off hand. Don | |||
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I am about half way througfh shooting at 50 yards, and like the rifle very much. Trouble is, every time I shoot rim fire ammo, I cannot help getting the feeling that the ammo quality is not up to scratch. We get two or three shots that actualy go in the same hole - as far as I can tell with a 25 power scope - and the next one flies off somewhere else! | |||
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It's got me beat on what produces a flyer. It's probably beyond question that different barrels prefer different ammo, so we can't blame the ammo for that. Even with a bench rest, a shooter at our range will get a "good" 10 with cheap T22 and straight after get a nice round group, yet twice the size or more. Same batch? heck, it's the same box. I think there is a heck of a lot to consider, quality of rest and technique included, but when I'm watching the x-hairs sitting on the bull, watching the projectiles disappear into it, and then one out of ten you see drop a couple of inches low? I'm having a good run with relitively cheap bulk Lapua "Magazine" stuff at the moment, but now I've bought thousands of the slippery blighters, just watch them go off. Still, not as frustrating as Golf. | |||
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I know this is a sore spot Saeed. Rimfire ammo is inconsistent as you have seen. Best you can do is give a good range of likely results. You will find more consistency in results if you shoot ten 5 shot groups at both ranges. At least the averages will be consistent enough to tell you something useful. Five 5 shot groups will give too variable an average to be highly useful. | |||
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I don't know what ammo you are using, but, I've had good luck with Wolf Match Target sorted by weight, which is about equal to Wolf Match Extra. Sorting be weight is a PITA, so I'd recommend Wolf Extra. Also, the very best ammo I've ever used right out of the box is Lapua Midas L. I haven't had good luck with lapua Midas M however. I get some amazing groups at 50 yards with Midas L in a Suhl, a Custom Target with a Swindlehurst action and a Hart barrel, and a Martini Mk II rebarreled with a Hart barrel. RWS R-100 is a sleeper, and it also shoot extremely well in another Martini Mk II I have as well as my Anschutz Model 54 Match rifle. I've never been able to get RWS R-50 to shoot in any rifle very well, but the R-100 is another story. Some guys get good results with the top end Eley, but I find it erratic. Those are the three best ammo brands I've found. SK and Wolf are made by the same outfit and SK works well too. Don | |||
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Gentlemen, We have about 40 different types of ammo, some are supposed to be very target ammo - Eley tenex, RWS R 50 and lapua Midas - and others are very cheap Chinese ammo. And when we get a targe rifle such as the Walther KK 200, I thought it might be an interesting exercise to shoot all the different ammo and see how they compare. We usually shoot our 22 rim fire at 50 yards. This time we have decided to do it at both 50 and 100 yards. What I have mentioned about the inconsistency of 22 ammo is that it varies so much from shot to shot as to be totally incomparable to center fire ammo. I know, each rifle has preferences to particular ammo. But with rim fire we seem to have totally unexplained results. I have finished shooting all the ammo at 50 yards. I have shot 5, 5-shot groups, which I think should give us an indication of how these ammo shoot in this particular rifle. I will try to upload the results later on today, and continue the test at 100 yards. | |||
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Saeed, The results are not unexplainable. Rimfire ammo is less consistent. When you only shoot a few groups of each type the results have a greater variance. If the ammo were highly consistent any few groups would be pretty much of the same size. You would be making better use of your ammo and time to double the number of groups at 50 yards. At 100 yards all the problems only become more of a factor. This only confuses the picture further. I have been through this before, but with the inconsistency of rimfire, you could do five 5 shot groups with a given ammo, repeat it the next day or next hour or next few minutes and get results that grow or shrink by maybe 50%. The way such variance works however, shooting ten 5 shot groups has gotten you to a point where the average of those groups will not vary very much. If you shot ten 5 shot groups again with the same ammo the next hour or next day the results would not vary by too much with the good ammo at least. That is just how such things work. None of this reduces the inconsistency, but it provides a fuller picture of how much inconsistency there is in a manner which is usefully repeatable. You are on the threshold where a few more groups will make the results at least somewhat consistent grading ammo in that rifle. Without the few groups extra your results will have averages too variable to be of much use. | |||
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Saeed, I have a couple of more comments, and likely won't make more on this thread. I have shared messages with a couple of US Rimfire Benchrest competitors that are both among the top dozen in the whole USA the last few years. Asking how they select ammo they both told me they do it at 25 yards. Both said they have never seen any ammo group better at 50 than 25 or better at 100 yards than 50 yards. Selecting ammo at 25 yards reduces the possible sources of error. I think the main one with rimfire being wind. A 2 mph wind change at 50 yards moves the bullet more than a quarter inch. While at 25 yards it would only move it less than a tenth of an inch. Now you have seen the inconsistency of rimfire ammo. If I suggested you shoot one group of 5 shots for each ammo and pick the best it wouldn't make any sense. That one group might be a 1/4 inch group and the next might be 3/4 inch. So if one group isn't enough is two groups, a hundred, how many? Well the answer is when using 5 shot groups you need around 8 to 10 groups to discriminate usefully between ammos. More groups would be even better, but 10 of them gets the results down to a fairly small amount of chance you will pick the wrong ammo as being better. Harold Vaughn, in "Rifle accuracy facts" explained why this was so. He worked for the US proving grounds on such matters. He should know what he is talking about. He was using centerfire and said no results in his book were less than 8 ten shot groups. The appendix as I recall gave the full explanation for that. If the point of what you are doing is to see how the Walther shoots, then you need to pick ammo it likes. My suggestion would be to shoot ten 5 shot groups of each ammo at 25 yards. Pick the best two or three and shoot them at 50 and 100 yards then you should have a good idea of what that rifle can do. When you say your results are unexplained at 50 yards doubling the range isn't likely to help matters any. | |||
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Saeed, I like that Lapua Midas L group at 50 yards. That is exactly the kind of accuracy I get with it. Don | |||
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Saeed: If you wish and are curious, I can run a statistical analysis and tell you within approximately 90% confidence what all future groups will be with one specific rifle ammo combination. I won’t be able to reach the “Gold Standard†of statistical science which is in the 95% range, but it will determine to a greater degree which group averages are statistically better or worse. As Esldude pointed out, you are a few groups away from a truly valid testing methodology, but if the Standard Deviation of the various group averages is significant enough, it will allow you to weed out the group averages that are truly different. As I said above, if you’re curious enough, just give me the size of each group within one of your averages and I’ll do an analysis of that particular rifle-ammo setup. It is possible for probability science and statistics to be your friend, but you have to have an open mind. In most cases, it requires more testing than is generally accepted. However, with a little knowledge of the science involved, it often allows you to make a few shortcuts too. Well, flame away everybody. I know how this usually ends up on most forums! It’s the primary reason I’m a lurker and don’t often post. Sometimes I just hope to educate a few, I know the majority view this science with disdain. Your friend Landy NRA Life Member NBRSA Life Member IHMSA Member | |||
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Oh! No! I just did a search of this thread and discovered I’m only duplicating what’s been done in the past. So, disregard everything I’ve said and I’m outta here! Landy NRA Life Member NBRSA Life Member IHMSA Member | |||
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Gentlemen, I appreciate all the suggestions. I do understand that statistically if I shoot 100 5-shot groups the results will be more meaningful, but, that is not very practical I am afraid. What we are trying to do is be practical. We have people claiming they actually shoot groups that are "one hole" at 100 yards - consistently! I find that extremely doubtful - at least as my own experience with rim fire ammo. All our shooting is done in an underground shooting range - hence the major factor, which is the wind, is eliminated. There was even talk about some one shooting bench rest with a rim fire at 200 meters! That is what I cal an exercise in futility! | |||
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Thank goodness that statistical nut has gone.  They just don't get it. We want SHOOTING results, NOT statistics, whether right or wrong, better or worse. My take on .22rf shooting for minor comp or fun is this. Try and find a load that your rifle likes without wild flyers. Hopefully this will give you a reasonably good chance of a full score on your targets. Then you get a chance to read and hopefully out-guess the wind. Whether at 25 yards or 200 yards doesn't matter. Sure your groups will usually be bigger at the longer ranges, but your bullseye should be bigger also. We tend to forget, we can fluke a good group as well as a bad one, and sometimes that centre bull may be your worst shot, if your group is off centre. Lets have fun, but do it SHOOTING. | |||
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JAL I’m sorry! What did I do to offend you? I only wanted to help and stated that in my post. I didn’t try to force any knowledge down someone’s throat and I left when I realized no one wanted me here. Do you belittle and bully everyone you disagree with? Surely, sometime in your life, you’ve been exposed to new ideas that we’re useful and worth trying. I’m not naïve. I know these discussions can bring out the worst in people, but I still believe in the “Golden Rule†treat others as you wish to be treated. I’m going to assume you are basically a good person and it’s the anonymity of posting on the web that causes the rude hurtful remarks. Hopefully your friend Landy NRA Life Member NBRSA Life Member IHMSA Member | |||
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Saeed Thanks for the courteous response. I’ll try not to ever post about statistics again, but I would like to make a couple comments about your post. #1 – From my 40 years of experimenting, testing, and competitive shooting, I can tell you that anyone claiming consistent “one hole†groups at 100 yds with 22lr is using a barrel 99 yds long with the crown 1 yd from the target. In other words, if such an animal does exist, I’ve never seen it or heard of it. #2 – Believe it or not, there are more than a few who do shoot 22lr at extended ranges in several different disciplines. However, with any wind involved, it is often an exercise in futility! Landy NRA Life Member NBRSA Life Member IHMSA Member | |||
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Husker old mate, a bit thin skinned there? (I'm often called an idiot when I disagree with some here.) Yes, we have had major discussions on the "title" thread here about forcasting the next few shots with a damn spreadsheet. I took some flack from being um, ignorant or something, so I'm still a little jumpy. What I would like to see is someone work out the group on Excel and then have someone like Saeed shoot the required amount for comparison. And if Excel knows the future I'll eat crow. Stick around mate, I was only kidding, hence the | |||
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I am going to build something like a rail gun to hold sporters under test to minimize inconsistent recoil movements, for this sort of thing. The theory is to tie them down to a ball slide so that each recoil is constrained. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Actually I understand what you are trying to say about shooting groups at 100yds. But in reality the 5-5 shot groups at 50yds with a 22lr from any gun will actually hold more true meaning of how accurate a gun really is because the wind is less likely to be a factor to show up over say shooting at 100yds with a rimfire which is very succeptible to the slightest of wind or inconsistant wind changes that the shooter can't read. You need to also shoot your groups over windflags to really have better authenticity of making your test more legit. I have shot a Walther KK200 that one of my friends own. It is very capbable of shooting 5 shot .250ctc groups with good Eley ammo. I was shooting the Eley Pistol Xtra that shoots pretty well. They have a great trigger as well. Brad | |||
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Yes 22 ammo is terribly inconsistent. I have shot Small bore Hunter Pistol with some guys that sorted there 22 ammo by weight and rim thickness. They claimed that the variance in rim thickness was a big problem getting uniform ignition. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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I see you shoot in a tunnel underground. Sorry. I doubt too that one hole groups at 100yds with a 22lr is a regular thing either. I've shot my Suhl bench gun at 100yds a couple of times outdoors. My best group to date was a .375ctc 5 shot group using the old Federal 900. I have shot about 4 different groups in those 2 times trying it that all 5 shots could be covered with a dime. I believe on a good calm day I can improve on these groups. At 50yds the gun can shoot in the .1's to low .2's for 5 shots. Here's a few.   | |||
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Those were shot with the original Suhl factory barel. I have since rebarreled the Suhl with a Benchmark barrel. I can on good condition days turn in groups like these or just a little bigger.  | |||
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The KK200 I shot with the right ammo I was impressed with my initial test. I believe the Suhl factory barrel was more consistant. But the Walther barrel was pretty dang accurate. Sorry if I hijacked your thread. I was just sharing some of my experiences shooting a 22lr bench gun that was comparable to the Walther KK200 with the factory barrel. Brad | |||
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Gentlemen, I got a few more types of ammo - which were not included in the original 50 yards test. I wll add these once I am finished with the 100 yards run. We had a bit of fun this afternoon, as a friend of mine, who is a very good shot, was looking through the spotting scope. He did not believe how bad some ammo was shooting - in fact, he went as far as saying I must be changing my point of aim for fun!? I gave him the chance to shoot the same ammo, and as we are using a 25 power scope, he cold see his bullets impact very clearly. After a few groups, he gave up, saying "I will just keep shooting tin cans with my 22" | |||
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Gentlemen, We have finished shooting this rifle with all the ammo that we have, at 50 and 100 yards. Our Results We are thinking of running the same test with an Anscutz BR 50. | |||
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Thank you for posting your results. And, most of all, thanks for doing the test. The differences in results between different lots of ammo within a particular brand of ammo are sometimes large. I have three different lots of Wolf Match Target and all three shoot differently in my target rifles. So, I have a file set up to indicate what lot shoots best in what rifle. I have six different lots of the Lapua Midas L, and five of the six lots shoot well in all of the rifles, but that one lot isn't up to the same level as the others. Finding the best brand, and lot within a brand, is a crap shoot. It's particularly difficult to find the right Eley lot that works best, as there are four loading machines that Eley uses, which produce different lots. So, for a given rifle, finding the loading machine that the rifle likes best, then the lot made by that machine that is better than the others in borderline insanity. Don Don | |||
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Don, Make that 5 machines now for Eley. Eley added a #5 machine this past year. So they now have machine 1 through 5. Eley ammo for the most part from what I have seen will shoot the best in most super grade match custom barrels that are what I call true precision. All the benchrest shooters here in the states that shoot on a national level and are winning consitantly are pretty much shooting Eley ammo. Some of the Lapua is pretty good, but Eley usually takes all the marbles. Brad | |||
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I'll add that no one that I'm aware of shooting rimfire benchrest is winning with any RWS ammo. I've shot some of the RWS Match ammo. And it shoot's pretty good, but Eley Match EPS or Eley Tenex is a lot better. | |||
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Well, we have quite a number of 22 rim fire rifles here, and each one is someon'es favourite. So an argument has started of which one is the most accurate! Needless to say, there is no answer to this this, as I fear the problem lies with the ammo, rather than with the rifles. Anyway, we have decided to pick a few of these rifles and run the same test on them. Currently I am shooting an Anschutz BR 50, then a BRNO 452 ZKM HB. I will have to see what comes next after that. | |||
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Saeed, No arguement on my part. I was just telling what I have had experience with and shooting in rimfire matches with some of the best shooters in the world and what they use which you know has to be as good as it gets or they in fact weouldn't be using that particular ammo. A lot of people will say all ammo is different and say that one particular barrel will shoot this ammo better than this ammmo. And sometimes that may be the case depending on different reason like the bullet diameter to the actual bore diameter of your rifle, rate of twist and proming compound, etc. But what I believe to be true is a true precision made barrel that is almost perfectly made will know great ammo like Eley or Lapua when you shoot it through that particular precision barrel. Like I said, some gun barrel of lesser made in true precision may take a liking to a lesser expensive made ammo like the Wolf, but in true precison made barrels, Eley black box or red box or Lapua M or L will pretty well shoot in all probability the best. The competition match barrels will prove that theory at least on a national level. Read this thread here what the best rimfire benchrest shooter in the world at least by Hall of Fame points, Harry Deeneen has to day about rifle barrels. http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48172 This guy knows what he is saying because he has been there doing it. | |||
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Just a note for those who might be interested. We are currently using the PVM-21 chronograph, which can be obtained from NECO. It is made by the same company that makes Quickload and Quicktarget software, and works great.  Screen shot of the velocity readings. The last shot is hown in large print, and added to the list as each shot is fired.  The sky screens. Anyshot in that U shaped opening is read. No light source is required. When we used the Oehler's we had to install lights above the sky screens, and place an opaque sheet of plastic to help with the readings. | |||
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The fact you are using that chronograph makes your closed-mindedness on using statistics with your results doubly pitiful. The equipment you have right there with the databases, filtering, and other functions would do virtually all of the work for you. It would be very near effortless on your part to get very useful results instead of results so variable as to mean very little. If only you would listen and shoot at least ten groups. I just wonder, do you think the people who make that equipment bothered to give it all those abilities because they can be useful? If they think such functions are useful, why do you think them useless? | |||
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Because I have found that so many theories are nothing but theories. And have absolutely NOTHING to do with real life results. You can also suggest that I take a whole production lot and shoot all of it. That will give me precisely the results what that actual production lot is capable of. It will mean absolutely nothing to the average shooter,who buys the same make and model and gets completely different results! The idea of trying to get some software to tell me what MIGHT happen if I shot an X number of shots does not appeal to me. So far what we have seen throws all those theories down the drain. I have said it before, and repeat it here for your conveniance, I have no interest in theories. Only in practical results. And as you think this is pitiful, I wonder why you even bother reading my results and get yourself upset because we do not listen to you!? | |||
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Interesting thread! I posted recently on another thread re owning a MAS 45 .22 training rifle and it is probably the most accurate rifle I have ever fired with open [iron] sights. AND IT DEFINITELY ‘LIKES’ SOME AMMO BETTER THAN OTHERS! My best groups to date, shot at 27yd/25m have literally been ‘one-hole’ groups and were fired with Remington ‘Thunderbolt’ which is I believe the cheapest of the Remington line so figure that one out! Many years ago I was fortunate enough to participate in a shooting training program using 22 rimfires. The rifles were old Mossbergs, ugly as sin and heavy as mud – but hey would shoot! The ammo supplied was “Xpert†standard velocity stuff and we had some kids that walked away shooting one-holers time after time, often enough to prove it was not an accident. I have never seen any of this stuff anywhere else, before or sense – really had not even thought about it until reading of Saeed’s experiences. I suppose in the final analysis that is what makes us do the things we do and why most ‘sane’ people think we are all a bunch of nuts! Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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http://www.neconos.com/details12.html Passive infrared sensors that see the hot bullet going by??? Nostalgia Enterprises Company? Creating nostalgic appreciation of the antique Oehler? Saeed, I say the Lapua Midas L wins. Screw statistics.  | |||
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There are one hole groups and then there are literally true one hole groups. Ammo: Eley Biathlon EPS Range: 25yds Shots: 5 Rife: Suhl 150 Original Factory Barrel  That first group measured .021ctc.  That's what good Eley ammo can do in a precision barrel with a good setup. I don't hardly ever shoot at 25yds, but it will help to show you how accurate your ammo and setup is by helping to eliminate one variable(wind) that can make your groups bigger at 50yds shooting outdoors. | |||
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We are partly through shooting the same ammo in the Anschutz BR 50. BR 50 so far We have lined up a number of rifles, some are standard sporters. We will run the same tests through them. WE hope this might give us an idea of what sort of performance one gets in REAL LIFE. Walter has convinced us to stay away from "theories". I asked him, "How about we follow some of the suggestions given on the forums and try to prove some of those theories are right" Walter "What theories?" Me "You read the thread, those theories mentioned on the forum!" Walter "Are they proven theories or just theories" Me "I pressume they are still theories, if they were proven they would not be theories any more" Walter "I know lots of things about theories. Mostly they are all wrong. I know, every now and then one of them becomes true, but 99% of them are proven wrong" Me "Come on, I would not go that far. Lots of theories lead to scientific discoveries" Walter "Bullshit! Sorry, I should have said camelshit! The biggest discover was made on a mistaken assumption. That is how Columbus discovered America. The crazy Spaniard was supposed to go to India! He got lost and tried to save his ass by calling the inhabitants "Red Indians". I don't believe in theories. Every time I miss something with YOUR rifle, which in theory is supposed to hit everything, you tell me it is my mistake. So, I DO NOT believe in theories. Only facts. And there is no better fact than a hole in the target. Can I do some of the shooting?" Me "No you cannot!" Walter "Why? You just want to have all the fun yourself?" Me "Because, THEORITICALLY, you can shoot as well as me. But, past experience has proven that theory totally wrong! So I am doing all the shooting!" Walter "I would like to PARTICIPATE in this test, so how do I do it?" Me "Right, I got just the job for you. Here are the results of our test on the Walther KK200, and I would like you to mark all throups according to which one is the most accurate. Both at 50 yards and at 100 yards. That way we can pick any ammo and see how it compares, statistically, in another rifle as we shoot them." Walter looked at the prinout, and said "Bloody hell! As usual, you scrwed things up again! IF you had listened to theory, you sould have shot the most accurate ammo first, then the second, then the third and so on. That would have made it easier to just right 1 2 3 4 and so on. Now I have to find which is the smallest group, then look for the second and third! That is going to take me a whole day! I am going to call my little sweetheart and ask her to get me some cake and ice cream. I need sooo much energy for this hard work" Me "Your little sweetheart has gone to a birthday party. So you will just have to suffer the pangs of hunger for now and do something useful. I promise you won't die just because you do not put something in your mouth every five minutes" Walter "Typical slave driver! OK I will do it. BUT, can we also test MY rifle too?" "His" rifle started life as a BRNO 452 ZKM. He cut the barrel, and made a full length silencer for it. Me "Sure. We will surely find out how bada job you have done on it" Walter "My rifle is so silent and deadly. You said so yourself whenever you shoot those stray cats to feed your croc! Did you see big they have got? All because of all the food you give them" Me "If feeding made you grow bigger, you would be 12 feet tall, and weigh 800 pounds by now. So stop talking and do something useful" | |||
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Lapua Midas L wins again. Pretty consistent, two different rifles. This should be the ammo that works best in Walter's stray-cat-silencing-croc-feeding rifle. That is a "theory" of mine that should be simple enough for Walter to understand. Another "theory" of mine is that Saeed will shoot smaller groups than Walter, with the Lapua Midas L using Walter's rifle. How about a shoot-off between Walter and Saeed, using Walter's rifle and Lapua Midas L? | |||
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