HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ATTACKED BY A BEAR -- WHILE ARMED ?

If so , -- what was the Firearm and Cartridge ?

How did it come out ?

If you had it to do over , -- what's the LESSON ?


( I'LL START OUT , -- I was attacked at close ramge , by a Medium sized Blackie , -- when about 19 yrs. old . --- I wasn't armed , so won't add it to this noble Log , , --------- MMCOUGAR .

It depends on your definition of "attacked" I have been charged by Brown Bears at least a half dozen times every year for the past twenty-five years, Sometines from distances of less than ten yards, but over 99% of the time even these turn out to be bluffs. A few times, depending on the bear's body language, I have felt the need to fire a round into the ground between us. A few times more than once. But I don't consider these "real" charges. I have had a few of those also when following up wounded bears but fortunately was able to stop them before contact was made. As far as calibers are considered I have stopped a few with a 30-06 and 200gr. Nosler Partitions but most with my 458 Win and 500 gr Hornady softs. I have also used .338's , 375's (H&H and Scovill) , 416's (Rigby and Rem) and a 505 Gibbs. Bears can be exceedingly tough to stop but from my experience a correctly placed bullet is of more importance than a slight increase in bullet weight or diameter.
I have also been charged by a few black bears and actually felt more threatened then as their body language seemed more predatory but by standing my ground and being agressive toward them was always able to back them down. On one occasion, at Laird River Hot Springs in Canada, my wife and I had a black bear circling our tent and action aggressive. I kept my M-70 375 in my hand but walked toward him and used a wrist rocket with marbles to shoot him. He slowly backed off but was reluctant. The following week another camper was killed and eaten at the same campground. I think my agressive behavior is what prevented one of use ( the bear or me) from being killed.
I have also been mistakenly charged by Grizzly bears that were chasing other bears or caribou and ended up focusing on me but once I "identified" myself by standing up and waving they stopped and ran off.
In my experience the majority of bear "attacks" I hear about are from folks with little or no experience around bears and think that any bear even slightly moving in their direction from 50 yards is a "charge" Bears are curious but also intelligent and understand that humans are best avoided. In my experience any bear over twenty feet away is no real threat to a well armed hunter. Even during real attacks they seem more interested in mauling rather than actually killing and feeding on you. Most victims survive -- however --the few attacks like the two in Alaska the past two seasons that actually were predatory teach us to treat them all with respect.

Hello;
Hardly an attack, but it sensitized me to keep on my toes and reinforced my belief that the most dangerous bears are in the National Parks.
My in-laws were visiting, early one spring and we took them up the Banff, Jasper highway in the hopes of seing some wildlife. Sure enough, we found a black bear foraging on the first greens in the ditch. Being the official photographer{my wife was the driver], I got out of the passenger side and started walking towards the bear. To my surprise, the bear started walking towards me, not rapidly, but deliberately. I backed off and he kept coming. This continued about half way around the car, where I opened the door and jumped in. The bear went around the driver side, where he stood with his claws sticking through the 1 " or so, the window was open, sniffing the air. My mother in law, who was sitting in the back seat, eating a bag of Cheesies, panicked and told my wife to get the hell out of there. I'm sure we dragged that poor bastard about 50 M. down the road before he could get his claws out of there.
Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It depends on your definition of "attacked" I have been charged by Brown Bears at least a half dozen times every year for the past twenty-five years, Sometines from distances of less than ten yards, but over 99% of the time even these turn out to be bluffs. A few times, depending on the bear's body language, I have felt the need to fire a round into the ground between us. A few times more than once. But I don't consider these "real" charges. I have had a few of those also when following up wounded bears but fortunately was able to stop them before contact was made. As far as calibers are considered I have stopped a few with a 30-06 and 200gr. Nosler Partitions but most with my 458 Win and 500 gr Hornady softs. I have also used .338's , 375's (H&H and Scovill) , 416's (Rigby and Rem) and a 505 Gibbs. Bears can be exceedingly tough to stop but from my experience a correctly placed bullet is of more importance than a slight increase in bullet weight or diameter.
I have also been charged by a few black bears and actually felt more threatened then as their body language seemed more predatory but by standing my ground and being agressive toward them was always able to back them down. On one occasion, at Laird River Hot Springs in Canada, my wife and I had a black bear circling our tent and action aggressive. I kept my M-70 375 in my hand but walked toward him and used a wrist rocket with marbles to shoot him. He slowly backed off but was reluctant. The following week another camper was killed and eaten at the same campground. I think my agressive behavior is what prevented one of use ( the bear or me) from being killed.
I have also been mistakenly charged by Grizzly bears that were chasing other bears or caribou and ended up focusing on me but once I "identified" myself by standing up and waving they stopped and ran off.
In my experience the majority of bear "attacks" I hear about are from folks with little or no experience around bears and think that any bear even slightly moving in their direction from 50 yards is a "charge" Bears are curious but also intelligent and understand that humans are best avoided. In my experience any bear over twenty feet away is no real threat to a well armed hunter. Even during real attacks they seem more interested in mauling rather than actually killing and feeding on you. Most victims survive -- however --the few attacks like the two in Alaska the past two seasons that actually were predatory teach us to treat them all with respect.

So Phil, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the .338-06 Improved as a grizzly gun. All of the guided hunt web sites I have looked at are adamant: they don't want a client showing up for a grizzly hunt with less than a .338 win Mag. Personally, I'd rather have a highly shootable .338-06 Imp. with maybe a 22" barrel than a .338 Win mag. Looking at the reloading data, the .338-06 Imp. can be loaded right to the door step of factory .338 Win Mag ammo.

My concern is I don't want to build a .338-06 Improved, take it to Alaska and have a guide put me on the next bush plane back to Anchorage for not bringing "enough gun".

Any thoughts?

Jordan

I don't think you would have to worry about that.

Phil,

quote:

In my experience any bear over twenty feet away is no real threat to a well armed hunter. Even during real attacks they seem more interested in mauling rather than actually killing and feeding on you. Most victims survive -- however --the few attacks like the two in Alaska the past two seasons that actually were predatory teach us to treat them all with respect. Shoemaker

These statements have piqued my interest to some extent. A man with a knife can close 21 feet and murder an officer before s/he can draw his/her gun. A bear, being infinitely faster than a human, seems to be more of a threat.

Phil, how can one tell whether a bear is attacking to maul or to kill? And why would it matter? Since it is legal to use deadly force to protect oneself against great bodily injury, why would a bear be accorded greater deference? To my way of thinking, the law as it applies to deadly force applies to beasts as well; to wit: when one detects an articulable threat to oneself, deadly force is reasonable. Moreover, I cannot see reasonableness to surrendering tactical advantage to any beast because absolute intent has not been demonstrated. All I would need to know is that a bear is charging or menacing me and that its action cause me to fear for my life.

BTW, I live and recreate in black bear territory, and I have never had a bad encounter. What I know to be true is that the only absolute way to survive a gunfight is to not get in one. I think this applies to bear attacks; that is, take every precaution to avoid a dangerous encounter. But if any beast threatens my kids or me, I'll do what I'll have to do!


Happy New Year,

Tom

*** THANKS PHIL SHOEMAKER ***

Want to sincerely thank Phil for taking time to put-it-all togeather , on this thread ( and others ) .

My Son works for Alaska F&G , and I've got to start spending more time up there , --- so I'm reading-up .

Thanks , much Phil , IMHO , nothing outshines FIELD EXPERIENCE .


---------------- MMCOUGAR .

Tom-

I seriously doubt that a man with a knife can close 21 feet and kill an officer before they can pull thier gun, unless they didn't know he was there. There was a guy who was a big karate expert back in my home town. He bet my dad that he could close 15 feet and disable my dad before he could pull or fire his gun. Dad put 6 primed shells, no bullet or powder in his 38 spec snubby and put it in his IWB holster. They squared off and the gun made his move. Dad had his gun out and made three load pops before the guy get within reach of him. They would have been hits too.

I would willingly stake my life on the fact that any guy with a gun 21 feet away would be very dead before he made it to within 10 feet of me if I could see him coming. My chest holster that I carry my 44, I can have my 44 out and on target in less than 2 second. Even my iwb holster concealed carry gun would be out and making noise before you could stick me.

Its not quite so easy to kill somebody with a knife. I got stabbed by a guy one time when I didn't have a gun on me, easily turned his attack an just took a glancing stick into my left arm. I got ahold of his knife hand, and threw him the beating of a lifetime.

In law enforcement it is refered to as the 21 foot rule. It is part of basic officer survival. A study and tests were conducted using numerous trained officers who were confronted w/ a subject armed w/ a knife. It was determined that the average officer would be unable to unholster, draw and fire their weapon prior to being cut, stabbed and possibly killed if they were standing w/in 21 feet. As a result, officers are trained evasive techniques to increase distances to better counter the attack.

I'm an 18 year veteran cop and have studied martial arts since I was 12 years old. The 21 foot rule is valid. The original tests as well as numerous studies on the subject are available in print, tape and disc format. I will not dispute the experience of Mr. Shoemaker, but all the facts suport that ones ability to react to a threat from a human attacker is greatly increased w/in 21 feet. My limited exposure to black bears in a hunting and tracking situation leads me to believe that they are faster than humans and maybe just as hard to read and predict.

Gary

Great thread,

I've got to agree with the 21 foot rule and would only add that training I've seen will show a guy with a knife (who knows what he's doing) take half the steps to the officer, go into a forward roll and come up slashing.

I'm not sure how fast a bear can move, but I've heard in excess of 30 mph.

15 mph = 22 feet per second
20 mph = 29.3 fps
30 mph = 44 fps

Now I didn't account for acceleration from a dead stop, but you get the idea. And I too won't discount and do appreciate real world experience. Maybe it's my lack of experience with bears that would want a higher margin of safety.

Keith

Quote from Phil......"I've been charged at least half dozen times every year for the past twenty-five years". Lets see 6x25=150 times. Damn Phil, you are one lucky guy!
I've been killing bears for the past 39 years and I can say I've only had one charge. I guess I'm just unlucky.

I've shot two brownies, one at 45 yds & one at 20 yds.Both with 338's with 250's. the first was dead on his feet & still ran 60 yds. the 2nd was mortally wounded, ran uphill about 75 ydy, turned around to wait in the twilight in ambush. let me tell you how very fast they can run; 40 fps is no joke. glad they ran parallel and not at me. you only get one more shot..if you are lucky/chaz

Avg. bear - 30-35mph = 44-50feet/sec for 2-300yds, maybe more?

Fastet human 10meters/sec = 32ft/sec for 100yds

You are NOT the fastest human

attacked or charged? once while camping I awoke to my buddies outstreched hand over my mouth. A black bear was in our wall tent with us...looking for food I assume. I reached over and picked up my loaded and chambered Rem 870 12 ga (loaded with #6 2 3/4" high brass as were were hunting grouse) when the blackie stepped to within 2 foot of my outstretched boots I stuck the muzzle between my feet an yanked the trigger.... dead that quick with the wad sticking into his skull as well.....what a mess to clean up!
For a short while (1 season) I guided hunters for Gary Vince of Muskwa Safaris out of Ft. St John,BC.I had a hunter whom wanted a interior grizzly an had a tag but was booked for a 10 day trophy moose hunt the griz was an add on if he killed a good moose first. On day 3 he dropped a 54" bull and I dressed him and caped it out. As it was getting dark we loaded the loins in our packs an headed for camp down the valley about 3 miles. At first light we headed back for the rest. When we were within 150 yds of the kill sight the horses gota whiff of bear...their ears were erect,tails tight and eyeballs bugged out... We got off and stalked in..a grizzly had covered the carcass and drug the skull/horns off into some buck brush. I went back took the panniers off a pack horse and lead her back to the thicket...there was NO WAY she was going in there an the magpies were sitting up in the trees squaking. Mr client wanted those horns UNCHEWED he told me..like I had control of that. Anyway I put the client on the opposite end of the thicket that was about 10 acrs in size and I went back to the drag trail and eased in REAL SLOW. I'd gone about 100 yds all the while telling myself how stupid this was to do but kept moving ahead slowly making enough noise to alert any bear. suddenly the client's gun bellowed an I heard the bullet smack and the bellows of the bear. I backed out and went around the thicket to where the client stood waving into the thicket where the grizzly had ran into again. He told me he had hit him GOOD right on the shoulder at 60 yds. rolling the bear but the bear got ack into the thicket before he could find him in the scope again. I waited 45 minutes an crept to the blood trail which was good, so followed it into the tight buck brush. 50 yds into it I saw the bear looking at me from behind a log with just his ears and nose peeking over the log. I put the front blade of my MDL 54 Win. 30-06 on that nose, just then the bear rose up an headed for me.I squeezed the trigger and he collapsed right there...not 25 yds away with his brains blow apart....I checked the bear then called for the client to come in an get "HIS" bear. When we rolled the bear around to take pics we found the client had hit him in the right front leg about 5" above the ankle joint...... I got a $300 tip from him when he left camp with a trophy bear and moose (the largest tip I ever got)...Cats

Cats thats scary and well told also,I had chill bumps.I had a charge about 20 years ago on an elk hunt,I had dropped an elk up hill so I left all my gear downhill and walked uphill to my elk,out of the brushrock to my right a young grizzly jumped out and attacked my dead elk,biting and pissing on him he claimed it and made a small charge,I walked back downhill and grabbed my 30/06 and loaded some 220 gr winchesters and headed back uphill and this time the grizz charged a little closer and stood up,I felt his breath as he roared,suddenly the elk wasn't as important as I had first thought and walked back to camp.Always report a charge or any aggressive behavior of a black or grizz,others lives or health may be saved.As for the 338/06,I have shot the 338/06 and I own a 338 win mag,there is not enough recoil difference to notice it,I have not shot the 338/06 improved but if its loaded to close the velocity of the 338 win mag it will most likely have close recoil also.I have a 35 Whelen and it too can be loaded to close to 338 win mag performance if you want to load it that hot,I don't and its just my opinion but I don't load any of my guns to magnum velocitys if they arn't mags in the first place.Thats another excuse for getting another rifle,338 win mag ain't bad to shoot you just don't shoot it alot like others.Just an old mans opinion.Drop-Shot

This is not really a charging bear story but rather a circling bear story. I once worked for a chap who had an Englsih wife. She was a typical British animal lover - a bit dizzy.

They had two young black bears weighing perhaps 100 pounds each. She said they needed to go for a walk and so would I take them out. I figured they must be tame and said OK. I would take them for a walk one at a time.

I took a steel chain with a snap lock on it and eased the cage door open until one bear stuck its head out. I snapped the chain around its neck and it took off running.

I hung on to my end and the bear went racing round and round me in circles at the end of the chain like a model airplane and bawling all the time.

I though I must have made a mistake. I figured the other bear must be the tame one. So I worked this one back to the cage, opened the door and it ran in. The second bear came to the door and I put the snap on its neck and the same thing happened. It began running around me in circles bawling. Finally it stood up and came at me on its hind legs and swatted me on the face. I thought it had blinded me because I couldn't see out of one eye for blood and so I punched it on the nose.

It dropped to its feet and started running in circles and bawling again and I worked it back to the cage getting dizzy from all the circling once again.

I washed my eye out and foung the claw had just cut me on the eyelid. I then asked some other employees about the bears and they said she had bought them when they were tiny cubs and that they had never been out of the cage.

Since then whenever I hear someone talking about animal behavior and I detect an English accent I immediately tune out. And I do know that black bears, at least little ones, do not like getting punched on the nose.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

TJ, You sound like you must do a lot of guiding. Who are you and where do you guide? I also stand by my original claim that I have been charged an average of a half dozen times each year for the past twenty-five years. There are numerous fishermen who have witnessed them. I say charged, not attacked and if you have been killing bears for as long as you say you should know there is a big difference. Maybe it's just the bears on the Alaskan peninsula but I have allowed unwounded brown bears within five feet of me rather than kill them when I felt reasonably safe doing so and I have never had to kill an unwounded bear in defense of life and property. I have had to kill a few genuine charges from bears my clients had wounded but those are a different story.
As for comparing bears with knife wielding opponents there is little to compare. Any human who knowingly threatens you with a dangerous weapon inside of 20 feet deserves to be shot - and quick. I certainly believe the 21 foot distance. But shooting your average bear because he happens to be inside of 20 feet would be like shooting some passing stranger just because he might be dangerous. A bear within 20 feet that is seriously threatening you is highly dangerous and is one I would closly watch over the barrel of my 458 but I still feel confident - from experience - that I could stop him if need be.
As for the question reguarding the 338-06 for bears. It should be a fine cartridge with suitable bullets. I have personally killed a half dozen or more with my 30-06 and 200gr Nosler Partitions and see no reason the 338-06 shouldn't be just a good.

Phil:
Nope, I am no longer a guide. Used to be. Back in the 60/70s. I used to guide for brown bear and sheep for Don Johnson and Jack Lewis in Meshik and Bear Lake on the peninsula. The sheep guiding was on the Kenai and around Twin Lakes. I didn't last long. Couldn't put up with the dudes.
I arrived in Alaska in 1966. When did you get here?
I've killed more than my share of brn. bear. I hunt/fish in 16B across Cooks Inlet from Kenai.
I never disputed your claim on the number of bear charges you have each year. I just repeated your claim.
I guess I'm not as tolerant of Brown Bears as you are. Yes, I know the "published" difference between a charge and an attack. To me they are the same thing. I never was able to tell the difference between a "bluff charge" or a real one. If a bear is 20 feet from me and runs my way, I shoot. In this area, I'm not concerned with depleting the population of bears. We've got plenty.

I have not been attacked but must reply to this post.TJ think about it, if Phil shot every bear within 20ft he would have killed 150 bears that did not need to be killed, as all they did was bluff. That is the point that Phil is trying to make(i think) is that most if not all un-wounded browns will not attack but are trying to scare the crap out of you.

In 1998 I was going in to join some friends to hunt Moose. I was hunting on the northern side of the Alaska Range. About 80 miles south of Fairbanks. I stopped for the night and set up camp at the Totatlanika River. Sometime during the night as I slept something pushed my head aside from outside the tent. As I awoke I reached up and slapped the tent. My hand hit something hard outside the tent, and I heard a WOOF. Then I felt rather than see the tent falling down. I grabbed my pistol, a 454 Casul, and rolled over onto my stomach. The problem was I had rolled over with my are under me, when something heavy came down on my. Actually it was a Grizzly Bear, and it had knocked my tent down and was jumping on it with me inside. The bear stepped in the small of my back and I groaned uncontrolliably. The bear bit through the tent material but only got a mouth full of sleeping bag. The bear started shaking the bag and tent with me inside, but was still standing on my back. The bear ripped the sleeping bag and tent material apart with his teeth, I expected to get bit next. Then I heard a shot and the whole scene lit up by a spotlight. Some other folks were running late that night and was heading to the spot I had camped in to spend the night there themselves. They had seen the scene in the lights of their off road truck. They instantly understood that someone was camping there and the bear was attacking a tent and possiably someone inside. They fired three shotgun blast into the air and shined their spotlight on the Grizzly. The bear turned and ran off. The folks came over to investigate and found me still inside the ripped sleeping bag and tent. I screamed and passed out when they tried to help me up. when I came to, they had me lying flat on the ground covered with sleeping bags. For two days I could not get up and walk. On the third day I was able to get up, but could not walk more than two or three steps at a time. On the fourth day they helped me into my track rig, and loaded my gear into the back for me. I then drove to a friends home and spent another week before I was able to continue on home. I have four herniated disk in my back as a result of the encounter.

Sourdough, That story is the stuff nightmares are made of. You are one lucky man. Fortunately events like it are super rare but they can and do happen as you have explained. I have had bears bump me and sniff me while I was in a tent but fortunately I must smell bad as I have not yet been attacked by an unwounded bear.
How do you sleep with your pistol now?
If I am sleeping in a small tent along a bear stream in Katmai Park I use a little battery powered motion detector that emits a loud siren for ten seconds when something comes around. I found them in a Northern Equipment catalog and they are called a Critter Getter. I also place them around my airplane and near meat after killing a caribou or moose.

458WIN
Thanks for the tip on the motion detector. I've spent many nights in spike camp in grizzly country with meat nearby. That is an awsome idea.

I also use one of the little nine volt flashlight that Cabella's sells. The one that never completely shuts off and has three levels of of intensity plus a strobe. The strobe lasts for a full week and seems to keep the bears disoriented. Of course I suppose if a bear ever did get something to eat after seeing the light it would quickly become an advertisement.

So how good do the portable solar electric fences work on detering bears from a camp site.

The little D cell battery operated ones do OK for curious bears but if there is meat involved I have watched big boars smash even the powerful ones. Around camp and planes the portable ones are alright.

458 Win: Last year while in the Brooks Range, I had a small Balck Bear bump into my tent during the night. I sat up and shoved the zipper down on my sleeping bag. That sound scared the bear more than it had scared me. The bear ran off a 20ft bluff and fell into a deep hole in the creek. When out I always sleep in my own tent, away from my partner since I sometimes snore. My snoring keep him awake, but it does not seem to bother the bears. While in the Brooks almost every night we had visitors from Grizzlies, they sniffed around and looked everything over but did no damage and left without disturbing us. I still sleep with a 454Casull in my sleeping bag.

Those tales sound more like the exeriences I have had and hopefully will be all I have.
I also know of a pilot who turns a small radio on all night. Thant is not why I'm out there though but thought I'd pass it on.
It would probaly sound better than a Casull in the tent though.

Phil, do you ever pack a handgun in your tent for the possiblity of a bear attack?

*** CRITTER GITTER -- SALE ***

Much appreciated , -- the tip on the Critter-Gitter motion detector .

Surfed up a sale price on one on the computer . -- $49.00 at -- www.positive-works.com .

Noted in several writings on the subject that Govt. F&W
Stream Guards , etc. , and counterparts in Canada , -- use Boat-Horns when walking the streams , -- but they always stress , -- to get a deep-pitched one like a fog-horn . -- The high pitched ones could have the opposite from desired effect , because it sounds too much like a bleating wounded animal .

Too bad Critter Gitter doesn't make one that sounds like a magnified Lion Roar. That might speak to Bear's ancient instincts about their friendly saber-toothed competitors .

Will have to get one of those Critter-Gitters .

Sympathize with Sourdough's herniated discs . -- Got two ruptured ones myself , ( had surgery on them , and they're never the same , -- kind of like carrying around a crate of eggs ) ; -- and they can sort of ruin your doins' , if you like backpacks . -- Will say a prayer to the Great Spirit they heal up O.K. .

More I snoop around about this , the more I think the " official " tally on Bear attacks is way off , -- even now that most agree that there's been a significant increase in attacks ,( where contact was made ), since the '70's .

Seems folks that work and live in bush country where Bruins are high-population , -- are so impressed with the teeth in the Protected Species laws ; that they seldom report a busted bear , even when the shooting was entirely justified .

Seems since absolute protection was legislated , we're loosing the "training effect" , where aggressive bears were popped routinely , thus selecting for
" Good Bears " , by genetics . -- And loads of bird-shot to the butt is largely a thing of the past , ( a training effect that put heavy fear of humans , uppermost in an aggressive Bear's mind ) .

I'm sure that attacks where contact is made is still a rare occurance , but I think there's lots more of them than the stat.s tell of .

And predatory Black Bear attacks are going up , as well . -- We in Forestry , in Black Bear range , used to think nothing of Blackies coming around camp . I've agressed on them banging pans , etc . many times ,
( long as it wasn't a Mom with Cubs , or a critter that already had some of your grub ) .

----------------- MMCOUGAR .