JBabcock:

I'm surprised at the retained weight performance of those two examples (Trophy Bonded, 98% vrs the A-Frame's 77%).

I shot 180 gr. Noslers @2650 fps from an '06 into moose for years, and consistently got about 70% weight reduction. I was generally pleased with that load for moose.

Then I saw a well done study on 180 grain premium hunting bullets at various velocities, and was impressed with the consistent penetration, expansion, and the weight retention of the A-Frame. I started loading my 338 with the 250 grain A-Frames, but have not shot anything with it yet.

I would hope for better than 77% weight retention.

What velocity was that A-Frame of yours travelling at?

Just a side bar: alot of hunters that reload for the .338 winny seem to neglect the 275 grain loading with the swift a-frame. Load enough Rel 19 to achieve 2,600 in a 24" barrel and don't look back. I guarantee that this load will put a major case of "whopazz" on anything it encounters. The SD of this projectile ensures penetration; the velocity is enough for an easy 200 yard zero. Recoil IMO is no different than any HE 250 load. Food for thought for some...not for everyone though. This is the load I carry when backing up on any bear or hunting my own.

JMTCW...
best,
bhtr

The range was 25 yards, fps was 2753. A very extreme test, and honestly I thought at such close range the bullet held together very well. If you had seen the Core-Lokt, you would have been very impressed with Swift A-Frame.

That photo is excellent. Thanks.

The A-Frames exhibit absolutely beautiful expansion, don't they?


And if you weigh that A-Frame, I'll bet it boasts 90% to 95% weight retention.

grape creek I have done quite a bit at the range with my 358 but unfortunately have not had the opportunity of killing anthing with it yet. I am an avid shooter & reloader living in Colorado. I bought the BLR 358 for thick wood hunting of elk. I like the punch it delivers clear up to 250 yards. Drops like you've thrown a brick..but once it hits!!!

What loads do you shoot in the .358? I'm going to get my .308 rebarreled for it and am interested in some input.

Ray, ever chrono the 250 HE stuff in your rifle? You're absolutely correct about the average 338/250 velocity... in my 22" bbl's 2,660-2710 fps was all I ever got. Still, not bad. Me, I tend to favor 225's in the 338 at 2,850...

Krag, the 338 is one heck of a round. If you shoot a 300 WM well I beleive you can handle the 338 no problem. As to Grizzlies, I seriously doubt you need a 338... a stout 180-200 grainer will deal with any grizz. Still, the 338 is a great thumper (I've had five!).

Cold zero: I like to use my own handloads with 250-grain A-Frame or Partitions, but the Federal HE with 250-grainers is hard to beat. Now, a NOS Partition in a handload that produces 2680 to 2700 fps works like lighting on any Alaska game. The HE is faster, but nearly 2700 fps is not bad at all.

Brad: The 250-grain HE clocked 2770 fps (a group of three), and the 225-grain TB-HE was right on the money. The temperature was 55 degrees, at an altitude of 480' above sea level.

I have only killed moose with the 250 grainers, since I don't trust the TB until it has been proven afield. I am almost certain this bullet would work, but in bear country I prefer to use Nosler, Swift, and FS's, since those have worked for me every time. The Partition is a little too soft up in front, but they have never failed to kill fast, so I can't complain.

JB, I've used the 210's quite a bit... they work well. In my 22" bbl's they go 2,950-3,000 fps with H4350.

Good Hunting!

Cold zero, care to elaborate with a specific example on your quote?

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stay away from the trophy bonded, if u want to take your animal home instead of chasing it around. bad ju ju.

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I find that almost impossible to believe TBBCs, are super premium bullets designed to retain over 85% of their original weight and expand to perfect mushrooms. If you use the .338 TBBCs on small deer and shoot em in the guts, you might not get complete expansion... Likewise, if you shoot anything in the guts, you will chase it around.

SHOT PLACEMENT IS KEY WITH ANY BULLET- CALIBER AND CARTRIDGE MUST ALSO BE CHOSEN WITH RESPECT TO THE INTENDED GAME TO BE HUNTED.

Ray, you mentioned:

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...I don't trust the TB until it has been proven afield

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Let me say to both of you that I have used TBBCs on everything from deer to caribou to African Plains game with absolute excellent results. They have been proven in the field to me and many of my colleages. I have shot deer at 50 yards with complete shoulder penetration from my .300WSM and have the deer drop in sight. On the other end of the spectrum, I shot a Black Wildebeeast at 200 meters and had a perfect mushroomed 172gr.(95% retained weight) bullet under the skin on the offside elbow. My farthest shot was on a monster Caribou at 350+ yards and the 180gr. bullet penetrated nearly 3 feet on a hard raking shot through the stomach and was found under the skin of the breastbone- haven't weighed it yet but it is also a perfect mushroom.

Try the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws- if they shoot well in your rifle, you will be impressed with the end results on game. Period.


CanadianLefty

I just recently chrono'ed some factory loads out of my Model 70 338. It has a 26" barrel, the chrono was set up 10' from the end of the barrel. These are all averages of 5 shots. The first number is the feet per second, the second is foot pounds



The Remington 250 Core-Lokt's: 2660 fps, 3929 fpe.



Federal Premium 250 Nosler (not HE ): 2603 fps, 3762fpe.



Federal Classic 225: 2753 fps, 3787 fpe.



Federal Premium 225 Trophy Bonded: 2764 fps, 3818 fpe.



Hornady 225 High Energy: 2911 fps, 4235 fpe.



The Hornadys really rock you around on the bench. The Remington Core-Lokts and the Federal Classics both shot well out of my gun. I was getting ready to reload for this 338 and wanted to see what the factory stuff that shot well in my gun was performing at.



I'm planning on loading 210 Noslers and hoping to use them exclusively, unless I hunt Bears. I have to confess that I'm not a big fan of heavy recoil. In the 338, there is definitely an increase in recoil as you move up and down the weight scale. I haven't loaded up any Noslers yet, so will see how they do.



One of the things that I really like about the 338 Win Mag is the versatility of the cartridge. For example, if I use this gun for deer, I can load a 180 grain Ballistic tip bullet to 3075 fps, and that's a mild load really. The Nosler manual says I can get 3200 easily. The drop at 400 yards with a zero of 3" high @ 100 yards, is only 13.6 inches. Thats pretty impressive. Great caliber.

Ray, Alaska:

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To this day, I haven't been able to understand how that could happened

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Me neither! Maybe bullets deflected off brush before hitting moose

CAN I START CALLING YOU CHICKEN?! Brock! Brock! Cheep! Brock! Cheep, cheep!

While I would never, ever hesitate to use a .338 TBBC bullet of proper weight on Grizzly or any bear, we fortunately have a wide choice of premium bullets to use nowadays- choose what you feel confident in and keep an open mind!

I did not say that a 338 win was not enough if you read my post I said it was enough. I believe a 300 win will take care of just about anything in NA with the right bullets. I was just stating the fact that if a guy wants a big boomer to get one that kicks less shoots flatter and hits harder. As far as I am concerned a 338 cant do anymore then a 300 win when both loaded with the heavey bullets. There is not that much size difference between the two. It would be like saying a 30 cal kills better then a 284 cal wich I have seen no difference between those two.

i would not use t.b.b.c. if i could get them for free. ammo is not a place to take chances on guided, or any hunt for that matter.

on kodiak, from across a valley at the same elevation as my friend and his guide i watched him shoot a buck, drop it on the spot and see it get up and run downhill straight at him and disapear before he could do anything. the guide was afraid to go in the brush after it. bears got that one.

several other guys from my club told me of similar stories on african game and they have become somewhat of a joke in my club. y.m.m.v.

i'll stick with n.p. till it fails me. almost always a one shot dramatic kill.

Here is my take on it a 338 is enough sure but if you are going to go that route you might as well get a 375 H&H and be done with it. It shoots flatter hits harder and kicks less then a 338 win in the same rifle and has a bigger frontal area. Dont let people kid you I have shot both and I am new to the big bores and really dont like alot of recoil. I would take a 375 H&H over a 338 win anyday. A 375 with a good stock and pad I dont think it kicks more then a 300 win loaded with heavy bullets.

hunsternorth,

The Trophy Bonded weighs 137 grains on my Hornady scale. The 225 Swift weighs 174 grains. Shooting a bullet into a stack of telephone books is just about the most extreme test you can put a bullet through. The 250 grain Core-Lokt that I shot in the same test was nothing but a jacket and lead particles. However, both did about the same damage in the wound cavities they left behind.

I kind of have mixed feelings about the super premium bullets. I just wonder if they can get to a point where they are actually to tough. This I know. Noslers work, period. I'm curious to see how the Accubonds and the Interbonds do though.

A couple thoughts on the 300/338/375.

If you compare the 300 to the 338, you'll find the 338 is definately more gun power wise, but the rifles will be of the same size/weight. For moose and bears, I'd take the 338 over the 300 every time. For deer, sheep, goats and bou, I'd load a 168 gr Barnes t-shock to 3300 fps and call it good, very good

Now comparing the 338 to the 375, there is no argument that the 375 is more gun. That said, the 375 will be a bigger heavier gun, which isn't a bad thing as it makes it more pleasant to shoot. That said, I wouldn't want to tote a 375 up the mountains.

There really is no one perfect all around round for Alaska, but the 300 and 338 winnies are about as close as it gets. Just figure out what and where you'll be hunting most, and that'll make up your mind. Either that or get one of each

Bullet on the left is a 225 gr Swift A-Frame out of my 338 Win Mag, fired into a stack of telephone books. The bullet on the right is a 140 gr Trophy Bonded out of my 270 Winchester, recovered from a Spike Elk I shot last year.



My brother has used 180 gr Trophy Bondeds on Grizzlies with no problems. I do think they are a "hard" bullet, and it's probably best utilized if you intend to hit bone. If your not going for bone, and your shot is going to be through the lungs, you may not get the expansion you thought you would.



I think for most hunting applications, it's very hard to beat the "all around" characteristics of the Nosler Partition Bullet; they always expand, and that's just as important as penetration.

I don't know about the new TB, but the ones I have are from a box of original Federal TB-HE. Back then, I saw two of them after being retrieved from the shoulders of two different moose (same moose season, two different hunters). One was from a .300WM, and the other from an acquaintance of mine's .338WM. The other TB's killed both moose, but these two bullets seemed to have hit bone with the side of the nose (near the tip, but on the side), and could not expand. To this day, I haven't been able to understand how that could happened, but I can theorize the bullets got deflected and tumbled when hitting bone. The guy who shot the .300 was an out of State hunter, and texidermist. He took both bullets with him, with the idea of showing them to Federal. I don't know if he ever did, but since then I don't want to use them on bears. You can call me chicken

dakor,

I re-read your post, and I see what you mean now. And I guess I agree to a certain extent, and yet still disagree to a point. All of the 375's that I have handled have been pretty heavy. I guess I see them as being a bit more specialized than a 338. The only reason I would own a 375 for this continent is for Brown Bears, and that's a once in a life time endeavor.


If I lived in Texas, and could shoot pigs constantly, I might own one just because

338 is a cartridge that I will use quite a bit. A 270 and a 338, and my bases are covered.