Gentlemen:

I realize this is a dumb question, but I have no shame. I am analyzing my arsenal and hoping that within 3-4 years I can do an Alaska grizzly bear hunt. Must I have Mauser extraction [i.e., controlled round feed]? Is it acceptable to hunt grizz with a push feed action only [aka, Remington, Sako, Sauer 202] or must I have controlled round feed?

Thanks,


Jordan

Depends on your outlook. Since you are a non-resident, unless you have a second degree kindred relative living here, you'll have to hire a guide. The guide will back you up should problems arise. So, no, you don't have to have a CRF rifle. Hunting is different than having a defense rifle anyway. Most of the time, hunters take the first shot when the bear is unaware of them and that's that. Personally, I prefer the CRF design when in bear country though I've used pump shotguns and lever action rifles as well.

No matter what type of rifle you bring with you, shoot it enough to know it well and become deadly accurate with it. Make sure it functions properly under extreme conditions (rain, sleet, snow, ice, dust, shooter stress, etc.).

I'll second DPhillips suggestions. I had six Brown bear hunters this fall (all were successful) and only two used rifles with controlled feed.

Hi
I wonder if my ruger 77 mk2 is a crf? it feed and eject the empty cases well. is it a good choice for alaska? at least it is stainless.

regards
yazid

"I wonder if my ruger 77 mk2 is a crf?"

Yes, the Mark II is CRF.

quote:

Originally posted by John G:
"I wonder if my ruger 77 mk2 is a crf?"

Yes, the Mark II is CRF.

Not all MkII's are CRF. There was a transition period while they were coming out with the MkII and during that period, some rifles will be stamped as a MkII but will not be a true CRF action.

hi allan
mine is the new stainless mk2 with the new type of plasic stock not those ugly ones. i bought it a week ago from the sand-mart.
regards
yazid at
http://www.goatexport.com

I'll take Mr. Shoemaker's endorsement of DCPhillips' recommendation as the "gold standard" and go from there. Your Ruger will be fine and yes it's a CRF. jorge

Gentlemen:

Thank you for your advise and expertise.


Jordan

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
hi allan
mine is the new stainless mk2 with the new type of plasic stock not those ugly ones. i bought it a week ago from the sand-mart.
regards
yazid at
http://www.goatexport.com

Then your rifle is more than likely CRF. It's very easy to tell if your Ruger has a CRF bolt or not. Pull the bolt out of the receiver, and look at the bolt's face: A push-feed bolt has a ring all around the bolt face, while the CRF only has part of this ring over the top one-half of the bolt's face. The lower half has no ring.

As long as any action feeds correctly it doesnt matter what type it is. Use what works for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
As long as any action feeds correctly it doesnt matter what type it is. Use what works for you.

I agree.

I would venture a guess and say hundreds if not thousands of brave folks hit the woods in Alaska each year with push feed rifles and the majority of them make it back out without getting eaten by a bear. But then again maybe its because of the high numbers and the odds are in their favor. If you wait a little and hunt later in the season, the bears will probably have already eaten enough hunters using push feed rifles that they will have had their fill and will leave you alone.

I hunt with both CRF and push feed rifles, my favorite rifles now being 2 Winchesters that are CRF (300 WM and 375 H&H), but I don't feel as if my life is in any more danger if I grab one of my Remingtons or Savage. My choice being more a funtion of caliber than the feeding method. The rifles I use all feed reliably and thats whats important to me. There are plenty of CRF rifles out there that dont feed worth a crap.

JD


(All in good humer so don't anyone get your panties in a wad)

If your useing a push feed action, Just make sure it feeds well when the mag is full.Alot of people only shoot at the range a feed one round in by hand,and don't shoot with a full mag.I had a rem 375 ultra that shot very well but the second and 3rd round would jump out of the mag when reloading.You want to find this out on the range not on a follow up shot at an 8' brown bear on a $12,000 hunt!

Excellent advice regarding checking your rifles feeding before the hunt. I'd also add that if you're using handloads (no reason not to check factory fodder) then I recomend removing your firing pin assy from the bolt, loading every round you'll take in the mag and cycling them to make sure they reliabley feed and chamber.

Excellent advice all around. I have both mostly CRF. But I have gotten rid of a number of CRF rifles that didn't feed well. My 375 is a Sako w/o CRF and works just fine. I trust it completely to work for me. At the same time problems crop up in feeding more from short stroking than anything else. Why does this happen? Muscle Memory. Few people use a cartridge as long as a 375 on a regular basis and many use a short cartridge. When the pressure is on the body goes on auto pilot and muscle memory takes over--short stroke. Even if they regularly use a long action the same thing. If you regularly use say a 30-06 and step up to a 338 I think you are less likely to short stroke it, causing a feeding problem. As has been said practise, practise, practise, run your loads through your chamber, don't leave anything to chance. It's better to use a little less rifle that you are comfortable with than one that is unfamiliar. Keep shooting until it stops moving and listen to your guide.

It probably has a one in a million chance of happening, but it is possible for the spring "plunger" type ejector of push-feed bolt actions to freeze. It happened to me hunting whitetails in PA. After I fired the round that was in the chamber, the empty did not come off the bolt. It is exceedinly rare as millions of hunters have used push feed actions without this problem, but ALL of the roughly 15 rifles in my arsenal are now CRF. Then again, I'm probably just paranoid...

quote:

Originally posted by myoderru03:
It probably has a one in a million chance of happening, but it is possible for the spring "plunger" type ejector of push-feed bolt actions to freeze. It happened to me hunting whitetails in PA. After I fired the round that was in the chamber, the empty did not come off the bolt. It is exceedinly rare as millions of hunters have used push feed actions without this problem, but ALL of the roughly 15 rifles in my arsenal are now CRF. Then again, I'm probably just paranoid...

What did you get with the shot that WAS fired?
How did you resolve the problem of the empty not being 'plungerly ejected'?
Have you experienced any type of problems peculiar to the CRF action?

I ended up getting a doe with the shot that was fired, but the experience was never the less disconcerting. To get the stuck cartridge out, I just "thawed out" the rifle (I was hunting on my family farm) by taking it inside. The only problems I have had with CRF actions is the occasional poor quality control of Winchester classic Model 70's. Some of them didn't feed to well out of the box, but when properly dealt with all feed perfectly now.

OK. Thanks.

i have taken many animals with both the m70 with c.r.f. and the m700.

while the m700 may have a slight inherent accuracy edge , i have experieced a double feed with this action and in different guns on more than one occassion.

i am yet to have a double feed with the m70 and c.r.f., it gives peice of mind.

had the guide that i used to shoot my b. and c. brown bear let me use my winchester m70 with c.r.f. in .30-.06 i would have used it and felt supremely confident that the gun would not let me down that i could place the shot/s where needed with this set up. however, he would not take me hunting with a .30 caliber.

i must admit that in the particular situation that i took my huge bear in , the heavier gun was needed and even barely adequate.

use enough gun for the most extreme situation you may encounter. b.b. hunts are very expensive and many times a once in a lifetime affair.

My 425 express is a 1971 push -feed which I've had since then and as any rifle it works perfectly when kept clean and slicked up. This CRF verus Push Feedbunk controversy is totally magazine orientened and in real life doesn't exist. 25 yrs brown bear guiding JT

CRF is not necessary for anything,(its always your choice)

but highly recommended for any dangerous game.
How many PH do you see using and reccommending push feed when in persuit of DG?
Take every advantage you have(be it large or small)is my advice,its not just about the trophy,but also saving your life.
Give me a 98 claw over a rem700.
I would not intentionaly and specifically set off on a dangerous game hunt without a fully tested and tuned CRF in the appropriate calibre.

All the years I have wondered around the Interior it seems like the Model 700 is the preferred choice and never heard a complaint. It shoots very good and never heard them to be a problem. All animals are killed with this push feed version of action. No one cares less if it is a push or controlled action so long as it shoots good if it don't they trade or sell it or bust it up against a tree.

I'd take a reliable pushfeed over an unreliable crf any day. If your preferance is for a CRF, than by all means, use one, and based on you making the question, it seems like you prefer the idea of a CRF. If you just don't care, then take whatever you prefer.

I'm sure Phil will chime in that some folks simply act funny in the presence of the big bears, so having a rifle you have any nagging doubts about isn't a good thing. Pick the rifle you want to hunt with, and shoot it and hunt with it alot before the bear hunt. Then you'll shoot it just like you were using it for a deer, or a hog or whatever, which is exactly what you want to be doing.

Is controlled round feed necessary ? No. Is it desirable? Yes.
Perfect feeding and reliability though are not optional.

quote:

Reply

this brings me to a question about push feeds although I do not use them often- how would you compare then the Model 70 Post versus the Model 700. Extractor comparison and reliability,accuracies between the two and smooth feeding. Just a question

That's a helluva good question, grizz007.

grizzly 007;

that is a very good question.

i do not own both, so i won't answer all your questions. however, most gunsmiths build competition and tactical guns from the rem action a it is inherently more accurate. so if you want a push feed, then it makes more sense to go with the remington. if you are concerned about extraction then hands down the mauser 98 claw is the way to go and that is what i have on my model 70 bought the first year that winchester reintroduced it about 12 years ago as the classic. i would not have bought a winchester otherwise, although i love the 3 position safety.

as i said above, i have had double feed malfunction with the m700 on more than one occassion on more than one action. this is not uncommon when the round is not controlled coming up out of the magazine with the remington design. hence the double feed. the claw extractor eliminates this malfunction. some guys have a sako style extractor installed instead.

as said above, is is a requirement to have the claw, no, is it an advantage yes. why not take any advantage that you can.

IMO, a crf has a benefit but it is only in a very small posibibilty. I own both, my preference leans toward push feed since you have several options available that can be quickly done, removal of a round with out racking the bolt and a quick feed without the problrms of trying to force a bolt of a crf to feed a round dropped into thr chamber. I have been told it is no big deal but I surely wouldn;t try it unless something was coming down on you.
The critical thing with either rifle that the action is reliable and dependable, if your going to hunt in the snow then test it in the snow or if it is going to be 110 degrees then test it in the hottest weather available. Don't wait till you get there to see if it'll function you might be surprised.

grizz007 was, I believe, asking about which PUSHFEED was better between the Winchester Post '64 and the Remington 700.

The push feed mechanism are basically the same. It's a cost-cutting design which is what Winchester did in order to keep preices down so in that regard they are a "wash." Now if you include the better and SAFER Winchester safety and the better trigger of the Winie, Well, you make the call. jorge

PS: Either way, I'd tackle a grizz with a Rem PF anytime.

I seriously question the statement that the rem 700 is inherently the most accurate mass produced action. My thought is a more accurate statement is that it is the easiest action to accurize, and most accuracy smiths have the tooling and experience to blueprint one. Kinda like why chevy V-8's are the engine of choice for hot rods, any speed shop can work one over and speed parts are a dime a dozen, but that doesn't mean that a ford or chrysler motor can't make horsepower. Same with actions, M-70's can be made to shoot very well, but most smiths don't use them as a basis for an accuracy action.

Take your pick, as long as it goes bang when you want it to, and the bullet goes where you point it, it's all you need.

*** DUMB QUESTION ? ***
NAW , -- I think it's a good question . --- I've read and heard ,of some big-name experts debating the same question .

I trust field experience a lot ,( as compared to theoretical opinion ) . -- So , I too , would listen tight to Phil Shoemaker .

My take , from a lot of reading , ( and I do own , and use , both action-types ) ; -- is that in VERY high stress circumstances , shooters do crazy things .

-- They short stroke Pump actions , causing jams . They short stroke Bolt guns . They throw the horsepower to things that don't "go" , and actually bend metal . And mostly they try to cycle their firearms MUCH faster than they normally practice .

Some of these over-reactions , cause terrible jams and/or failure to fire .

In Dangerous-Game situations , it's the life-or-death intensity stress , that you have to worry about . If it wasn't for that , any type of good action would be fine .

As Massad Ayoob points out in " Stressfire "
--- under that kind of stress , all of your training , goes right out the window , and you WILL revert to your instincts . -- when your instincts dictate the wrong thing to do , you can be in a whole lot of Ka-Ka .

( Some Hunters , and lots of Guides , have a gift . -- They know that they're cool heads under Stress . --- For them , any basically dependable mechanism will , probably yield a good outcome ) .

I think that a Direct-Feed action gives you a slight edge , -- UNDER THE MOST EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES .

They are just excellent if the problem is that you got a twig jammed in your chamber , and you need to get that round ,( and the twig ), out of there quick .

But the Push-feeds are better , if your magazine is empty , and the Bear is almost on top of you , and you need to stuff a fresh round in the breech .

Since you mentioned Bears , were it me , I'd choose the Direct feed , -- because it's more sure on the feed stroke , and dy-no-mite on the extraction ; -- given , that anything goes wrong .

On the " PUSH-FEED , for D.G " side of the argument , you've got Engineers and Designers and Gun / Hunting experts , - up the gazoo !
Positive testimony from millions of Africa Hunters , --- and no less than the fact that Big Green ( Rem. ) , and old Roy Weatherby himself , thought they were ideal for Dangerous Game .

I've read that some Africa P.H.'s won't accept a client for D.G. that shoots a Push-feed ? I don't know ?

Maybe the big scale-tipper , SHOULD be , whether
you ever plan on hunting alone in Bear Country , or if you will always have a back up shooter .

I've got a custom .458 in push-feed , -- built it up when I was quite young . -- If I had it to do , now , I'd have a pre-'64 type Model 70 . ( with a deep magazine ) .

If you were talking strictly " Hunting " NON- D.G. , I'd say , " don't make any difference " .

But for Griz.-type turf , I'd personally feel better with Direct-Feed .


---------------- MMCOUGAR .

*** ONE MORE PERSPECTIVE ***

This is a little off topic , --

but if you're not absolutely sure of your performance under high stress , ( and many highly experienced Bear HUNTERS are not , at all , experienced on Bear - CHARGES ) ; - the more simple and (stone) dependable the action / mechanism is , the less the chance of failure under hith-stress .

The Military considered this thoroughly , for decades ; -- and when Semi-Auto became extremely dependable , they went to it , ( not just because of enhanced fire-power , -- but also because it was so simple that the Troops didn't screw up the weapon ( or feeding ) , when firing under battle stress .

--- ( All they had to concentrate on was pulling the trigger , -- which was the most instinctive thing to do anyway . --- One simple action , requiring no complex , multi-directional movement ) .

The African P.H.'s went to the Double-Gun for MECHANICAL reasons , AND simplicity ; --- if the shooter , under the subject kind of stress , screwed something up , and one barrel's firing mechanism broke , or failed to fire for any reason , -- there was a " back-up " , completely separate , mechanism standing by to fire , ( in the last few fleeting instants ) .

This extra mechanical dependability , incredibly , was so important to these Charge-experienced P.H.'s , that they traded off a third or fourth shot capability , just to get that " stone " sure-fire mechanism . --- When you think about it , -- them's some Apples .

If the African Guys put that much emphasis on the last enth of dependability , maybe that makes the case for the Controlled feed .


--------------- MMCOUGAR .

RE: M-700 versus M-70 push feed.........

In my opinion and experience , I"ll take the M-70 . It seems to me they tend to feed smoother , and you got the superior hunting trigger , safety , and easy bolt stripping in the field . I think the bolt handle is also more securely fastened , and the handle seems to me better shaped for fast follow up shots.

I think the extractor may be slightly more positive on the M-700 , but you see few complaints about the push feed Winchester extractor , or the Savage , which is about identical. And a good point in favor of the M-70 extractor is that it is very easily replaced without special tools , unlike the M-700 .

Jordan,

Since your planning ahead it makes no sense at all to choose a push feed action. This is the crux of it for your decision.

Now if a person did not know any better then it would not bother them and they might be ok most of the time.

A brown bear guide on Admiralty Island got chewed up really bad when his Sako double fed. It's like asking if if when you go sky diving do you want the chute thats more reliable or not? Now if there is no choice and the plane is going to crash I would take a push feed parachute but.........

Ask the Alaskan guide who was eaten by a grizzly (oops, too late to ask him anything) not long ago after his push feed rifle refused to play -- it was a Sako, I believe.