What do you guys think is the more versatile and effective cartridge for brown bear hunting. I was thinking about having my 300 win made into a swap barrel in 458 but been taking a look at the 416, any oppinions or experiences?

The 416 Taylor is intriguing and on paper, and in theory, it looks to be pretty near the best big bear basher one could imagine. I was looking for exactly that thing when I first built my 458 big bear backup rifle. Now, with twenty-five years of experience with the 458, I would have to ask; what does the Taylor do that the 458 can't?
The bigger bore and heavier bullets do hit harder and you can find ammo.

I don't have experience with the 458 version, but have to think that Phil is correct.

However, the 416 Taylor did the job on these 3 bears. On the brownie, which wasn't exactly huge, the Taylor was a back up shot, but quite impressive anyhow...

Hard to find any fault with that logic Phil. I just thought the 416 might shoot a little flatter for the odd moose at 200+ yards.

I was just doing some number crunchign and it really doesn't look like much difference between the two of them with 400-450gr bullets. Especially the Barnes with thier higher BC.

Another bonus to the 458 is that I can use some of the 2 thousand 405gr Reming soft points that I got for my 45/70 for plinker loads to help familarize myself with the 458

I seriously doubt you'd find the trajectory that different between the two rounds. The plus I'd see for the 416 is it will theoretically penetrate a bit deeper with teh 350's, and if you want to keep recoil on the milder side, there is a big difference between a 350 and 450 gr bullet.

The 458 will also be much cheaper to feed with a variety of component bullets.

I had the same decision to make when I had a 338 win mag re built..............Mine fed both rounds equaly reliably.......I studied what 458Win wrote.......Talked to Ben Forbes and Glen Morgan.and Brent Hudson...And a lot of other people who had alot of bear experience.....I went with the 458 win mag......On Bears I have only regretted the long distance abilities of the 416 ... But I had mine made up quite light, 8 1/2 lbs and as I used it for my personel protection and not as a primary hunting rifle I kept kind of a heavy trigger on it..........The 458 win is more efficent than the 416 Taylor........If you expand your query to include the 411 KDF then you can get 41 mag pistol bullets and Hornady 300 gr 405 win bullets for blastin and 300 gr X bullets and heavier other brand bullets for serious bear ,moose ect......The 416 Taylor is a great round and Ive used it alot..........I don,t think you could go wrong with any of the 3 ...... BW is that Nakwasina or Rodman/Appleton where the brown bear pic was.... I wish more people who therorize on this stuff , like effectiveness and ease of operation could experience how well and fast they work.......I get exit holes on bear with the 458 with X bullets and swift 450gr. even the 300 gr X... I myself have had bad results with the 350 gr round nose hornady bullet as factory loaded by Fedral.........

I'm waiting for somebody to make up a .416 Ruger and tell about it!

Take a look at the .416 Taylor with the Barnes 300 grain for "longer" shots. Sectional density isn't too bad at .247 for the 300 gr .416.

My points are:

1) Do you care about the extra step of necking brass. I think A Square may offer .416 Taylor brass.

2) I wouldn't get too technical - I would go with what you really want.

Happy Holidays,

B

Calibers to kill bears is sure a popular topic around here.....

Oh, and I suppose you'd chose something stupid like a 223AI.

David-

I have no doubt that my 300 win will kill a bear, I was talking about having something bigger for hunting, and both the 416 taylor and 458 would easily fit inside the same action as the 300 win without much modifacation.

Bears are one of our "big four" in alaska, and the next one coming into season, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them discussed on an alaskan forum.

There will probably be more of a run on 375 Ruger brass by the wildcatters than by people wanting just a 375 Ruger......The 416 Ruger should be simular , preformance wise to the 416 Rem Mag.... Very simular to the 416 AR .....I like belts tho.....and I have shoulders,! One of the nice things about the 416 Taylor . It has a belt and is easy to make brass for.......Myself ,I prefer necking up 338 brass to necking down 458.......The neck is a little thinner and I don,t have to ream the necks... Plus I need all the 458 brass I can get as its not cheap any more........Which ever one you make up I think you will enjoy it......But as you can tell there will be more people who make wierd faces about your rifle than you can believe.....But that is their loss not yours..Berry,s makes a 350 gr. round shoulder plated 458 bullet that is tops for cheap blastin,loaded to 22-2300 fps they are just great.......I moly coat them ....I wish they would make a simular bullet in 416......

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
Bears are one of our "big four" in alaska

Thanks for the clarification.

I'll admit though, this thread is better than most, and I hadn't read it closely enough.

Have you thought about a 375H&H? It will shoot flat like you are looking for and hit hard. But if you are going to shoot 200 yards or less a 458win should shoot plenty flat.

I already have a nice lightweight 375 H&H. I was thinking about having my 300 make into a swap barrel so I could just take it and the two barrels and two scopes for traveling purposes. I have to stay in the same size class of caliber IE 300 win mag and 458 because they are both based off shortened 375 H&H brass.

If you are using a 300win that is a long action. A 375 H&H is a long action as well. A 300win and 375 will work on the same long action. I know they will at least on a REM 700 or a MOD 70. I guess you never stated what your 300win is.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
If you are using a 300win that is a long action. A 375 H&H is a long action as well. A 300win and 375 will work on the same long action. I know they will at least on a REM 700 or a MOD 70. I guess you never stated what your 300win is.

I don't beleive this is correct.

- The 375H&H is a longer class of cartirdge than the 300-458WM class.

- Even Winchester manufactured post-64 Classics are opened up so the longer cartridge can just sqeeze in. If I hold my factory M-70 416Rem next to a standard M-70 long action receiver, I can see where the port is opened up to the rear to clear the longer class cartridge. If this is not done, I can see some significant ejection issues you may encounter. In addition, it would be less than ideal snaking in the longer cartridges in an unmodified receiver if you needed to top off your magazine in a hurry when under pressure.

- The Ruger mkII requires additional modifications as well to squeeze it in.

My personal preference of a 416Taylor over a 458WM in certain lighter rifles is recoil. I can go a bit lighter in weight w/ the 416T over the 458WM. Otherwise, both are the same w/ the exception that the 458WM throws a bigger bullet. Both can go through and through on quartering shots, but the 458WM just does it with a bigger projectile.

GVA

Gary is right.

My 300 is a winchester 70 classic. The winchester 70 classic is the same action but is opened up along with a different bolt stop. The COL is much longer between the 300 win and the 375 H&H, this could cause some serious problems with feeding and extraction. The 458 Win was shortened to fit the standard length action, just like the 300 win, they are in the same family of cartridges, grandchildren to the 375 H&H. Since I want to stay with the 300 win I have to go with one of the shorter cartridges, 458 win, 416 taylor, 358 norma, and so on. I didn't think the norma a big enough step so the logical cartridges were the 416 taylor and the 458 win.

I have not shot a Taylor but I can tell you that if you get a .458 do not get tricked into shooting the heavier bullets off of a bench!!!! OOUCH!!!!

Open sights and standing up, the .458 would be my choice.



Good luck on whichever you choose!

You should try them from prone without a muz. brake. I think 458 win,s rifle is the one to attempt to duplicate ... With the longer barrel and more weight it would be a bit more stable for the trickey far shots and the fixed 2.5 x scope is suficent.........And without being varible it is about 3/4 " shorter than a 1-4x or 1.5-5 x ... I like the 3x leupold best.........Stainless would be a good upgrade if you are around salt ,, wether water or hide....even in a 416 cal.

Guys a 300win case is 2.620 long. A 338 is 2.500 long and a 375 H&H is 2.850 long. Not sure with the Winchester but I know for a fact a 300win is the same action same everything on a Sako, Tikka or Remington. If you really wanted a 375 you could have the chamber opened up and the bolt adjusted by a smith. It would still not affect a 300win. But like I said before I really do not see a 458win not shooting flat enough out to 200 yards. I think your 416 or 458 both will work well you just have to decide if you want a wildcat or not. Good luck on what ever you decide.

I had my Post-64 Win 70 chambered in 300 Win rebarreled to 375 Taylor (375-338) No bears shot with it to date. I've been spending the $$$ for a resident BB tag the last couple of years, but I just haven't seen the bear that makes me want to use the tag.

Here's what the case looks like:



L to R

.338 Win with 250 gr N.P.
.375-338 with 270 Kodiak
.375-338 with 300 N.P.
empty .375 H&H
empty .375-338

The 375 T will do everything the 375 H&H will in a lighter and shorter package. Yes, it's a handloading proposition only - BFD.

MM

Personally I would avoid the expense of any wildcat. I once went the 375/338 route and it didnt offer a thing over the standard 375 H&H.
It you think you need something flatter shooting than the 458 WM all you need to do is to load up the 458 with 350 gr Barnes triple shocks.
And if you want your stadard m70's to handle the longer length cartridges such as the 375H&H just give Stan Jackson a call in Anchorage. Last time I talked to him he charged $100 to open up the action and magazine and to add another scope base mounting hole.

I love the .458 bore and the 458 win mag is a great cartridge. With 400 grain bullets you get pretty good performance out to 250 yards, and with 450 grain bullets you get great stopping power.

Hello,
It was mentioned that the Ruger MkII needs altered to fit the 375HH and believe you will find that the Ruger Magnum Deluxe in 375HH is an enlarged version of std. length Ruger. The Magnum series are just that, true magnum length actions as opposed to opened up "std." length and I believe the overall length is something in the order of .625" longer and the diameter may as well be a bit larger.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
You should try them from prone without a muz. brake.

This one does not have a brake but I would not want to experience the caliber in prone position. I'm sure it is a pounding though

Muskeg ,, where ya been..,., ,.,. Do you really shoot the 375 Taylor???? ..,., I wish I did...Next time I come accross a 7 mag in a hock shop .,. If I can find some one who will sell me a light weight 375 barrel, I,ll make one....Nothing wrong with 375 H&H ballistics from a standard action... With a belt to boot.!!!!! How fast / what powder charge / what barrel length???? Thanks................Mayby , 78 you should make it a 4 barrel set

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Muskeg ,, where ya been..,., ,.,.

I put my huntin' gear away a while back. The skiing was just too good (best since '94)

BBL length = 21"
Powder = 66.0 gr IMR 6064 or RL 15 or Varget [they are pretty much interchangable in this chambering]
Vel = 2,500 fps over my Oehler 35

I heard a good story from a co-worker who was over at Idaho Inlet just before T-giving. They shot 8 deer w/o much effort. The night before they were going to get picked up, they put the boned out meat (in coolers) down on the beach. Well, you-know-who, showed up in the middle of the night and helped himself to 3 deer. He tried stashing a lot by burying it the snow.

A fellow further up the inlet (a bear guide) said the same bear caused them problems too. He figured it was at least a 9-footer.

MM

That is so efficent!!! its like a grown up 358 win.......... The 358 Norma is efficent like that but I don,t know if quite that good ..I take it that is with the 300 gr bullet....... The 416 taylor and Win mag. are more efficent but have steeper trajectories...... There was an oldtimer in juno named John that had built one of them for himself... He has passed away a few years ago..........It looked about perfact ...