Went on a goat hunt with them. Jim canceled my hunt after receiving payment in full, half way thru the hunt. Naturally, he kept all the money even though i asked for a pertial refund for the days i did not receive. He blamed the weather, for the calcelation. I spoke to 2 guys from my area who i split an air charter on the way out to this camp when i got home. They told me that the weather was fine the hole time i was gone and the outfitter left camp right after my departure as this was the last week of the season.

i wish i could get paid for a hole week of work and only work 3 days. I now know there are numerous reports with the hunting report ,s.c.i. and the north american hunting club from other hunters complaining of the same thing.

If u don't want to be ripped off I would avoid them. WARNING......

cold zero

Coldzero: You might try filing a complaint thru the state's guide board. Maybe you'd get some money back from this guy. I'd think that even if the weather was bad, the guide & clients would just stick it out. A friend of mine had a sheep hunter in the Brooks Range this year and the only rams spotted were across a rain swollen creek that they couldn't cross. On top of that, it was mostly overcast & rainy weather. He said that he's never seen the creek so deep it couldn't be crossed. He didn't give up on the hunt, just couldn't do much with the creek & low cloud cover. Those are chances one takes coming up here on a trip like that. I've run into similar situations as well. Still, you might do as I suggest & contact the Guide Board. If the weather was as he said, I'd think he'd offer a substantial discount on a future hunt.Bear in Fairbanks

[ 10-04-2003, 22:16: Message edited by: Bear in Fairbanks ]

bear in fairbanks;

thanks for your reply.

he is not a member of the a.p.h.a. alaska professional hunters assoc'.

the divis' of occupational lic' services will only take action if the hunt was unsafe. it was not. as for the business aspect , they will not get involed with it. they are basically a paper tiger.

cold zero

Cold Zero,

According to this webpage...

http://www.huntinfo.com/seeak/

...he advertises as a member of APHA.

The webpage appears to be at least one year old. I don't have a lot of respect for APHA myself, as I think they are strictly looking out for their members, and not the clients.

I recall they support a guide requirement for non-resident moose hunts. Of course they do, it's more money for them. Doesn't seem to matter that guides were originally required for safety reasons, just that they'll make more money.

cold zero

I feel very sorry for you. I know that there are some really unserious guides and outfitters out there. A friend of mine booked a grizzly hunt with a guide. The guide took six clients for the season but had only three tags. Which my friend found to be quite interesting

I think this was one heck of rotten excuse to send home the client. The weather is bad, I guess you were there for hunting and not a vaccation in the sun??

I guess you are still interested in a Goat?

/ JOHAN

bw;

thanks for your reply.

like u say they are biased against the customers and are unlikely to take any action. amybe i will give them a call anyway.

i did send negative report in to the hunting report , s.c.i. and the north american hunting club. so no one else will get robbed.

cold zero

Cold Zero,

I'll do some checking on this guy in Yakutat..........Looking at his wintering address leaves a lot to be desired. Most very well established Guide business have only one address, and it's in Alaska? Did he offer to make it up to you by offering you hunt in the future for the fee you already paid? Was his charter plane used like he claims, and was it included with the price? Something does stink....

[ 10-05-2003, 20:04: Message edited by: CK ]

hmmmm.... cancel a hunt in Alaska cuz of bad weather......wonder what percentage of hunts could be completed without bad weather...

Cold zero
Can you post a copy of the hunting report you filed?

robert;

computer skills for that are lacking.

however, u can see the report by contacting

the hunting report
n. american hunting club
s.c.i.

an outfitter that can work with bad weather!

cold zero

kmuleinak;

i can shed some light there.

when the hunting report contacted mr. keeline regarding the report and informing him that they were going to do an article on him, as they had several other negative reports as well. he then offered me a slightly discounted rate on a return trip. as i felt he quit on me in the field and i did not want to throw more good money after bad, i declined the credit and again requested a cash per diem refund, he declined. i took his offer as just another opportunity for him to make money on me when he did not deliver the full service the first time.
i also told him that there was too much bad feelings on both sides for me to spend my vacation from work in that environment. how do i know that he would not quit/send me home early the next time?

having to go up there again would cost close to $2,000 to go back and try again, breakdown non-res' hunting lic, another tag, airfare roundtrip, another charter in and out. we are talking a lot of money here. last time i spent $150 just to change my 2 airline tickets to go home early plus the charter on the way out was by myself, whereas on the way in it was a 3 way split saving me about $350. i think u get the picture now.

i doubt if u will hear from him on here.

as for the a.p.h.a. , they do not take punitive action against their members. they advance the cause of the outfitters not the clients.

cold zero

cold zero - I understand the monetary considerations of your trip and reluctance to return hunt with this outfit. Seems that the outfitter could gain a lot more positive publicity by working this out with you instead of this negative ending. Did you check his references before the hunt was booked? I (someday) hope to go to Africa and that too will be a substantial amount of $$$$ so I am told to check references, check references, so on..... How did you find this outfitter? KMule

Coldzero--

If you paid with a check you may still be able to put a 'stop pay' on it--check with your bank.

If you paid with a credit card you can contact the card issuer, tell them that the transition is in dispute and not to pay until the transaction is resolved.

Good luck

Mike

ironbender;

first payment was months in advance, 1/2. other half on arrival before hunting, he specified cash, i received no receipt.

kmule;
the reference list all said nice things about him. as u may have guessed. thats why i am no longer a big beleiver in reference lists. i heard that the bigger goats were coming from the yakutat area , there are relatively few outfitters there and he is there for 35 yrs. i also checked with an s.c.i. friend who said he was o.k.. he was wrong. thats why hunting reports are a better source than reference lists supplied by the outfitter receiving the $.

cold zero

Two sides to every story :

To: The Hunting Report From: Jim H. Keeline of See Alaska with Jim H. Keeline, Inc, Re: John Burke�s Goat Hunt Date: April 4, 2001

In regards to your letter of March 19, 2001 from Mr. John Burke, there are a few things Mr. Burke failed to mention, as is so often the case.

To start Mr. Burke called me while I was at my hunting camp in Alaska asking for a cancellation hunt or a last minute deal. I told him I had an opening on my last hunt of the season that I could let him have for half price. He agreed to the price and I sent him the paper work as stated. In my conversation with Mr. Burke I told him I could also give him a few extra days at no charge to him, and that at that time of the year the weather played a big part in what we could and could not do on a goat hunt.

Mr. Burke arrived in camp and as he stated the weather was bad, and I could not get him or his guide to the hunting area. Mr. Burke was quite nervous about this and I assured him that when the weather broke I would take them to the hunting area. When I flew the area to make sure the goats that I had spotted several days before were still there Mr. Burke asked how big they were and would they go in the SCI record book. I told him I was to far to determine the size. He stated they have to go in the book or he would not shoot. He had to impress the members of his club and would rater go home with nothing.

When I talked to his guide on the radio a few days later I advised them to hunker down, that there was a storm on its way. At no time did I tell them they had to come in, it was the hunter�s decision and he stated he wanted to return to main camp and dry out for a couple days. When I met them at the air strip, I told Mr. Burke that for them to came to main camp and dry out was fine, but it would cut the days to hunt and not give them time to come back after losing the day to flying. That did not seem to concern him.

I do not understand why Mr. Burke would even mention me having dental surgery. In casual conversation, I had mentioned that I had an abscess tooth taken care of a few days prior to his and other two hunters arrival and that I had been in a great deal of pain prior to getting it fixed. There was no need of any further work to be done and to this date has not been.

The other thing that I had mentioned in casual conversation was being the executor of my mother's small estate, and that it was all new to me as to how things like that worked and had mentioned it was an eye opener for me.

Mr. Burke states that after dinner on Oct. 11th, I informed him he would have to leave camp. Not true, Mr. Burke asked what the weather was going to do and I told him we would listen to the weather and he could judge for himself. At no time had I scheduled a flight to pick him up the next day. After we had listened to the weather I told him I did not think it looked very promising and the decision to stay or go was his. At that time I told him if he left early I would work out something so he could come back. He had already had a discount on his hunt, and had the opportunity to take a goat but chose not to shoot, which was his decision. I can�t blame him for passing on a small goat after what his guide and I had seen in the area, but he chose not to shoot and to come back to main camp instead of staying.

After we had listened to the weather forecast I told Mr. Burke it was up to him. We could wait until the morning and see if there was a change in the forecast, there was not. He chose to leave the next day, and that morning I called the air taxi to pick him up. As to one of my guides, and some gear going out with him, I have always, as I am sure most if not all other outfitters in Alaska, taken advantage of any spare room on flights coming and going from camp. I am sure had Mr. Burke taken his goat this would not have been a problem. It seems when one does not get the game they are after most, anything is a big problem, and that is what this is all about. He received a discount on the hunt, had three extra days because of weather at that time of year, and had a packer to help with extra gear and anything else. If he arrived back in camp on Oct. 11th he would not have been able to go back the next day on the 12th. If I had been able to take them on the 13th they could not hunt that day, leaving if it all went right, on the l4th to hunt, and the 15th to get back to the airstrip to be picked up. The 16th was the scheduled day for them to leave camp so under the circumstances I think Mr. Burke made the only good decision and that was to leave. There was not enough time to go back and try again, nor could I have extended his hunt, and he knew that.

Mr. Burke stated all the radio and phone traffic about my dentist problems, (which had been taken care of prior to his arrival) and my mothers estate business. To the best of my recollection there was no phone traffic and the only radio traffic was the weather, which was not good. The only time I used the phone is the next day, when I called the air taxi to pick him up after he decided to leave.

Mr. Burke did call me on a hunt in 2000 and then was unable to come. At that time I told him again I would give him a fair price on the hunt. I believe I mentioned half price or a little less. He said he could not come due to other business commitments. My remark to him at that time was to give me a call when things work out.

He did call me in late December and at that time I was in the process of getting my 2001 schedule set up and told him I could not give him any dates that I had open but I knew I would be able to work him in the fall. He said �I will call you back in a couple weeks.� I did tell him I had gone up on all my hunt prices due to insurance, guide wages, and land use fees that keep going up like everything else. No price for him to return was mentioned.

I made an effort in good faith to get Mr. Burke back the following year after he past on an animal and he decided to leave camp early due to bad weather. He could not return the following year due to his schedule. I wonder how long must a fair offer to come back stand for?

In a recent phone conversation with Mr. Burke (4/2/01) I again offered him to return. He asked what other game he could hunt because he already had a goat hunt with an outfitter in B.C. I said he could come back for black bear for only $600.00 or in the fall for moose that is at regular price $7,500.00 for $1,500.00 or a goat at $1,000.00. I think that it is going above and beyond anything I should or be expected to do for a hunter that chose to come back to camp and then after finding out about the weather choosing to leave. When he asked my opinion about the weather I told him: �you heard what the forecast is, if it was me I would go.� Again it was his choice. I have done all I could do, and this offer will end this year. At no time did I, or my staff didn�t do all we could to assist Mr. Burke, and never did he want for anything to eat, and at the base camp there was a cabin with a heater to dry his gear. I sell a service not animals, and under Alaska conditions I think our service is pretty dam good.

When you come to most hunting camps in Alaska you are not coming to a five star hotel and you are coming on a hunt not a shoot. There are no guarantees, and if that is what the hunter of today wants then they should go and hunt on a game farm or at the zoo. When you come to Alaska you come to hunt and sometimes, if not most of the time, you will have weather to deal with.

The only real reason for Mr. Burk�s letter to you is to try to get a free hunt. He feels that a letter to you will intimidate me enough to give it to him. Not so, I have made an effort to get him back at a very fair price and that is all I can do.

Hmm...Shaka are you the outfitter or what is your connection to this? I agree in that there is always 2 sides to the story, divorce, etc. Since the mud was slung let's get this straight.

Not an Outfitter at all, but have been on many guided hunts. Cold Zero said his computer skills were lacking in Posting his Report - so here it is, plus his version.

To: The Hunting Report From: John P. Burke Re: Mountain Goat Hunting Date: January 22, 2001
I agreed to a contract with See Alaska with Jim Keeline Inc. on short notice (32 days) before the hunt. This contract was for a ten-day mountain goat hunt. This is not the seven-day hunt Mr. Keeline normally gives. This was the last hunt of the season. He wanted to fill the spot and I said O.K. only because he was giving me the ten days that I felt it would take to find the top quality trophy I was after.

On the morning of October 5, 1999 I flew into base camp by Gulf Air Charter flight. The Cost of flight was $285.00 split three ways ($95.00/person) between myself and two other guys from New York, Sisto Braggaalia 914-942-2735 and Jack Glinsky 914-469-5225 who were going brown bear hunting for ten days and were scheduled to leave on the morning of October 16, 1999 with me. The above two gentlemen will confirm everything in this report.

This hunt should have started on Oct. 6, 1999 and was delayed due to heavy rains on Oct. 6 and 7, 1999. When I arrived in camp, I found out that Mr. Keeline�s mother had recently past away and he was made executor of a sizable estate. Additionally, Mr. Keeline had emergency dental surgery on Oct. 4, 1999 and was in pain and needed to go back for more dental surgery.

On the morning of Oct. 8, 1999 we ascended the mountain and made a spike camp near the top but inside the tree line. We went up and looked for goats and did not see any. On Oct. 9, 1999 we ascended again and eventually located an eight and a half-inch goat. Shane, my guide, was honest enough to admit when I asked about the size and said that this would be the smallest goat he ever has guided a client to. So I passed on it. He said: "don�t worry, we have lots of time and I can find you a better goat, there are more goats here that are bigger. Let�s descend to meet an airdrop of food," which was prearranged for late afternoon on Oct. 8, 1999. Upon making radio contact with base camp, Mr. Keeline said there was a bad storm coming and we must meet him at the base of the mountain as early as we can get there on Oct. 10, 1999. The guide, packer, and myself, made three separate flights in Mr. Keeline�s plane at around 2:00 p.m. on Oct. 10,1999. After dinner that night, Mr. Keeline told me that I have to leave base camp at 6:30 p.m. on Oct. 11, 1999, thus ending my hunt. He said: �due to the bad storm that is coming I could be stuck in base camp for a long time.�

Sensing that all the radio telephone calls back to town regarding his mother�s estate and his urgent need to get back to the dentist was playing a large role in his decision to end my hunt, I said O.K. I will spend the remaining five days of my hunt in base camp eating and resting since this was my vacation time off from work, and I already paid him in full before the start of the hunt. He said this wasn�t possible and he already scheduled my pickup the next morning without even discussing it with me first. I then requested a refund of half my money $2,250 since he was cutting my trip in half. He declined my request and made no offer to �square it� with me, saying: �I can�t control the weather�. I reminded him that weathermen are frequently wrong and this storm may not hit. I traveled a long way to get here and spent a lot of money for him to pull the plug prematurely. He would not listen to me.

I left camp early on Oct. 11 1999 with my guide in my charter plane and a large amount of Mr. Keeline�s cargo in the back of the plane. I asked Mr. Keeline since he�s using most of the cargo space and flying staff out, and since I�m leaving earlier than planned and I can�t split the cost of the flight three ways with Jack and Sisto, would he split it with me. He said no, �under his contract with me he had the right to do this.� I told him after reviewing the contract that clause #5A does permit him to do this, but under the circumstances, this was not the right thing to do. So this flight ended up costing me an extra $190.

After I arrived back home, Sisto and Jack told me that they had no trouble flying out as scheduled in the morning of Oct. 16, 1999. They also told me that no storm came and Mr. Keeline left camp within one hour of my departure in his own plane to deal with his own personal problems.

I contacted Mr. Keeline regarding my hunt problems and making this up to me, in the latter part of December 2000. I was unable to go back during the fall of 2000 due to business and other commitments. Mr. Keeline informed me that in one year he raised his goat price from $4,500 to $5,500 (22 percent) and that�s what his fee is, and he can�t commit to any hunt dates for the fall of 2001 now, and that I should call him back in about four weeks. I had to change two plane tickets as a result of my earlier than planned departure. The cost was $75.00 per ticket, $150.00. I also had to spend a night in an Anchorage hotel before I could make it home, cost $156.42 plus other incidental expenses.

As a result of his early cancellation of my hunt, I incurred some $496 in added expenses. I have receipts to show this, plus the cost of five days of hunting at $450/day. I feel Mr. Keeline owes me $2,746.42 at a minimum. Additionally, the first sentence of clause #10 in the contract that he wanted me to sign, states that if the trip is canceled by him due to circumstances beyond his control (i.e. weather) I would be provided with a foil refund $4,500. The contract also calls for ten days of hunting, I got five at best. I think See Alaska with Jim H. Keeline, Inc. breached his contract with me he gave a black eye to hunting and the outfitting business in the process with his unethical business practices. If you have any questions regarding the above, feel free to call my office at 718-768-1001.

Wow,

It's an eye-opener to read both stories. No way to judge one way or the other, as there as some differences. That's what happens when communication is not 100% clear between two parties.

Each man seems to feel he did the right thing, and there little chance of figuring out who's right via this medium.

Weather is a bitch!

What an unfortunate situation, and difficult for an outsider to determine who is "at fault", if there is such a thing. While I hate straddling the fence, I nonetheless will; I have been in numerous guided hunting camps, and have encountered many an a-hole hunter who does in fact expect that his trophy will avail itself to him regardless of the weather or other factors far beyond the control of the guides or outfitters, most of whom work their collective asses off to lead hunters to game; on the other hand, I have also experienced, 3 different times, outfitters/guides who offered less than their full effort, or who just simply didn't know how to hunt the game they were guiding!!

IMHO and based upon my experience, which by the way isn't even close to the level of many of the regular members of this forum, it's difficult to pass up ANY respectable (legal) animal and have misgivings later. Many a trophy hunt is spoiled by the weather, maybe an 8 1/2" goat isn't worth the bragging points within your hunting fraternity, but it could have also been viewed as a respectable animal which was taken fair-chase, during adverse weather conditions as a reminder of why it's called "hunting" in the first place.

This of course, doesn't relieve the outfitter of his responsibility to provide the hunter what was contractually guaranteed and make every effort to satisfy his paying customer.

My $.02 worth
Craig

johan;

like u said the weather is always bad, especially in yakutat, it is a rainforest afterall. no sun for me, thats why i brought the h.h. raingear. thanks for the recommendation.

CK:

his address not withstanding, what was lacking was his willingness to see the hunt to its end, successful or not.

Antlers:

How many men go on a hunt in ak. and saw the weather was great the whole time?

Robert;

For the neg'/complaint report filed with the hunting report shaka posted it.

kmuleinak;

keeline did eventually offer a deal on a future hunt/debacle after the hunting report contacted him. i wanted a refund/reimbursement as guaranteed under clause #10 in the K, not a repeat debacle. keeline is not concerned about being smeared here or anywhere else, he can always find more uninformed hunters to take. if he was reputable, he would not have done this in the first place.

yukon delta;

to get to the bottom, just call sisto, jack or check the other complaints on file at the hunting report. the editor, don causy told me this is not new with this outfitter.

bw;

easier to judge if u call jack, sisto or the hunting report. as for communication it was 100% clear. thats why i always tell what i am looking for up front.
when i have an unsuccessful trip, it gives me reason to go back and try again. the big ones don't come easy. i just want the time and service that is agreed/paid under the written K.

C.N.

i don't mind scouring the land for what i want as long as i have the time and the backup from staff i need. I have successsfully hunted chugach state park unit 14c for sheep and afognak is. for b.b.. i am no stranger to rough terrain. i do not need an animal to come out and surrender to me. i can go anywhere the guide can go. if an 8.5" goat is not what i wanted, then why take it? just to kill an animal and punch a tag, not me. i still do not regret pulling the trigger.

many thanks to all who replied.

cold zero

A customer might not always be right, but the customer is the customer. The outfitter should have refunded at least half the hunt costs IMO. If I'm happy with service I'll tell my friends. If I'm not, I'll tell strangers which is what you've done here. Thanks. You may have saved a couple people the same fate.

Well

The customer is always right I have worked with customer service and knows that you live on reputation. I always compensated nice and friendly clients more than the ungreatfull ones that screamed, cussed, winded and threatend me

I guess the guide would offer you a refund or discount hunt, how much is not my concern.
/ JOHAN

I have read that the most loyal customer a business can have is one that has had a complaint resolved beyond his expectations. Ever wonder why LL Bean has been around so long? Too bad some outfitters don't believe it.

COLDZERO,
Just found out about this web site and read your case. I sure hope the message sinks in, that once you the paying client have been soured by an outfitter, that a make up hunt is not an option. I agree with you, if a financial settlement is what you would prefer, then stick to your convictions. The probability of a quality return hunt would be miniscule. Good Luck.

Bill G.

COLDZERO and JIM,
I was hoping to look at a resolved situation here this morning. Any hope of that?