Okie,

All of the calibers mentioned have been used on brownies successfully, some more successfully than others. I recall one of our posters stating that each time he returns to Ak for the big bears he does so with a larger gun out of respect for the bruins.

The 350 RM is definatley not in the same class as the 358 Norma, but one that is and then some is the new 376 Steyr. Another option you might consider, all the potency of a 375 H&H in a lighter handier action.

Happy hunting!

After reading numerous posts on this board and other locations about effective calibers for brown bears, I'm looking for advice on two calibers in particular. I'm planning a bear hunt in the Dillingham area next year and feel compelled to move to a larger caliber rifle. I've used 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Winmag, and 338 mag on previous hunts in Alaska, but none of these hunts were for brown/grizzly.

My question is the 350 Rem Mag enough gun? My options are to trade the 300 Win for a 350 Rem or rebarrel it. If I rebarrel I'm leaning toward a 358 Norma. I'd like to get any feedback on actual field performance for either of these calibers.

thanks!

I shot two brown bear back in the late 60's using a factory Rem 600 and factory ammo and they worked fine and the new loads (or better still good handloads) make it much better choice now than it was then.

However, if I was going to hunt brown bear today I would take a 338 WinMag over the 350 RemMag in a heartbeat. My first choice, however, would be a 375 H&H loaded with a 300gr premium bullet. I would avoid almost any of the 35-cal magnums as they recoil like a 375 but don't have the punch.

the 350 will work fine, I zapped a small brownie with my 358 Norma, and he dropped just as fast as any hit with a 375. Bill, look up the norma's energy, its so damn close to a H&H it isn't funny

DP,

I can respect the fact the 358 Norma has numbers that nearly equal the 375H&H. But that leads me to wonder...

If two cartridges have equal 'engery' numbers, why not go with the larger caliber?

There's a reason we all compare cartrodges to the 375H&H.

okie,

I have a friend that guided brown bear hunters for many years. One of his favorite calibers was the 350 Mag. and it serviced him well. Having said that though the 338 is quite a bit more gun than the 350 and if you are stuck on 35 cal. the 358 Norma is definitely a step up from the 350 Mag.

Personally I haven't carried anything here in AK other than the 375 H&H or Weatherby for several years but given the opportunity I would not hesitate to use the 338 Win. Mag or 358 Norma for anything.

Who are you hunting with out of Dillngham?

Regards,

Mark

The 350 Rem Mag has a nose more power than a 35 Whelen. The 35 Whelen is fine for Brownies. Buddy of mine took one with a one shot kill couple years ago with a 35 Whelen in Cordova. Lot of people say the 35 Whelen (or 350 RM) has as much power as a 338 WM without the recoil. Personally, I'd rather shoot one with a 375 H&H or a 416 Rem or Rigby or better yet a 458 WM or Lott or a 45/70 Marlin. because: the more frontal impact area you hit em with, the better off you are on a brownie. I'm presently having a 358 Norma Mag built which is basically a 338 Win Mag necked up to a 35 caliber. The 358 NM is close to the 375 ballistically, however, like I said, the more frontal impact area you have, the better off you are. Don't forget round nose bullets too, they help. Any rifle 30:06 and up with a good bullet like Nosler Partitions, Barnes X etc(180 gr and above) and proper placement, especially to anchor them, will kill a brownie if his adrenaline ain't pumping. The heavier calibers come into play on a charge. Believe me, you'll want the biggest rifle you can handle on a charge for they're coming like a freight train to punish you or maybe kill you so when its you or them the bigger and wider the caliber, the better. Also, don't go shooting a brownie over 150 yds. The closer you are, the better. And if you do shoot one, keep shooting until they're anchored or dead. And if they go into the woods, its your responsibility to take him out and put him out of his misery and not to let the animal suffer.
choke

BW I agree, thats why I carry a 375, I was talking about Dr Bill's statement that the 35's recoil like a 375 but dont pack the punch.

Yaoughtachoke, I've got dies for a 358 norma I no longer own, drop me a pm if you need a set

DB Bill ----- I shoot a .358 STA that pushs a 270 grain North Fork or 280 grain Swift A-Frame bullet at 2950 fps, and a second STA that pushs them 50 to 100 fps slower. Compare that to your .375 and figure the punch of the .35's. ----- I took a 91/2 ft. Brown Bear with a .300 Win mag using 200 grain Nosler Partitions and got a one shot in his track kill from a standing target, the bullet pulvarized his heart. With the appearance of three additional Bears at the shot and the aftermath of that experience caused me to pack a .340 Wby my next trip and I now pack one of the STA's when I go to Alaska. In my opinion the .350 Remington would be a very nice Bear rifle, much better than anything of a lessor chambering, although I consider my STA's near perfect for the big bruins. I am not knocking the .375's as the years have proven their utility, but the STA does not take a back seat to them and in fact compares to the .378 Wby in power with a bullet of better SD. I also shoot a couple of .416's a Remington and a Rigby, however the STA's are much more mobile and pack plenty of "Punch". Good luck and good shooting.

I've killed 3 brownies all over 9' with a 30-06 and 180gr Partions handloads. and one with a 45-70 405 gr Rem jsp over 52.0 gr of 3031 None were over 75 yds and each dropped within 10 feet, after being hit on the flat of the shoulder.
The 350 Rem Mag will do it as well, sure there are bigger calibers but what on earth hasn't been killed with a 45-70 or a 30-06?

If you re-read my post I think I pretty clearly said the 350 RemMag would do the job but as he already had a 338 WinMag it would be better.

I also said or at least inferred I didn't have much use for the various 35-cal magnums preferring instead the 375 H&H. The reason I used was performance but another I could have used was availability of ammunition which would especially be true of a 358STW which is I believe still a wildcat albeit one of formidiable performance with resultant recoil (much like the Weatherby's mentioned) which you couldn't get me to shoot for a $100 bill.....but's that's just me.

I try, not always successfully I might add, not to criticize another hunter's choice of equipment no matter what the reason he chose it.

DB Bill ----- The chambering is a .358 STA and since this is the ACCURATE RELOADING FORUMS I am posting on, I don't worry that it is a factory round or not. I did reread your post and you did say "almost all" .35's, therefore I must apologize if you took my post to mean anything that offended. Good shooting.

Elmer Keith switched from the 35 Whelen after he shot a big brown at 12 ft away . He had shot it 3 times.I use my light weight 416 Rem mag with 22" barrel in the brush.If you in the thicket and dont have but a short distance to shoot you want the most powerful handiest gun you can shoot.I had light weigh 35 Whelen sold it to get the 416 rem mag never looked back.The 416 rem mag with 410 gr woodleigh bullet does does some damage up close and out a ways.You will never feel the 416 kick any harder when a bear is after you.I shoot mine up to 150 times in a day in practice.

Im simply posting what I saw as nothing more than food for thought. I have never hunted for any bear let alone a Alaskan Brown/Grizzly. Having said that, back in 2001 I went to the SCI convention in Las Veagas/Lostwages and in the three days I spent there I must have watched over 100 Alaskan Brown or Grizzly bears being shot on video tape. If memory serves most were shot with .375 H&Hs or .338 WMs, with a few .300 Weatherbys or WMs. The only bear I saw drop quickly enough not to have ran far enough away not to have posed a vary real threat to the hunter and or guide had it desided to charge them insted, was one that was shot by the guide with a .460 Weatherby no less!. I was actually able to talk to the guide who shot it and he was a slightly older man of 62. He said it was a Bore that lator squared just a hair under 9'. The hunter shot it with a .338wm loaded with .250 grain A-Frames. At the shot the bore took off like his A** was on fire and his head was a catchin, and went about maybe ten yards when the guide let him have it with the .460 Weatherby. That bore stoped instantly as if he ran into a solid concreat wall, and did not so much as quiver. I asked the guide why the .460, and he replied he no longer wished to persue brown bears into the bush after both he and his hunters had shot them with lesser calibers, and the .460 Wetherby was the most powerfull factory made rifle available to him. He said with the factory brake, the .460 was quite managable for him to shoot. He also said the hunter had made a perfect hit on the bear going through the near shoulder and into the lungs. His shot went into the lungs and through the off shoulder and out of the bear. Both shots were at well under 100yrds accourding to the guide.

Like I said, just food for thought.

The 350 remmy mag has taken (cleanly) many a bruin. It was very popular in the short length as it fit into many small planes; pilots loved them.

If time is not of the essence and you reload, the 300 rebarreled to 375/338 (Taylor) or the .416 Taylor (either of them) is a class round.

Any one of these three will be suitable. If the .350 is a short, light weapon, it will kick...but not any less (reasonably) than the other two.

For general bear hunting, the 375 Taylor will offer a 270 grain bullet (your choice) at 2700 fps. Not a bad combo for bear.
best,
bhtr

Wow! Didn't realize I'd generate this much discussion.

To answer one of the earlier posts I havn't booked the hunt yet. Will be setting up the hunt in the next two months for an '05 hunt.

Based on the feedback I'm now leaning heavily toward the 358 Norma. I don't actually own a 338 (that was borrowed) but I didn't find the recoil any more difficult to manage than my 300 win. Since this gun will serve double duty as an elk rifle I'm hoping the increased frontal area will serve better than the 300 (one bull I shot took three hits to chest before collapsing).

I hadn't heard of the 375/338 Taylor before. Any experience on game with this caliber?

Thanks again!

DP, Thanks for the offer on the dies, I've got some RCBS dies for my 358 NM. I just got the 358 NM Montana Rifleman barrelled action out of Stan Jackson's shop tonight here in Anchorage. Now I've got to get a stock for it. Have a place in mind, guy by the name of Rick in Palmer who designed the Kifaru rifle moved up here from Colorado and now does a good business in gunsmithing and stock work. turn that into him this weekend. I need a good load though for a 358 Norma Mag. Any suggestions?? I'd be using it for brownies and moose.

Okie, you can't go wrong with a 358 Norma Mag. I knew an Alaskan guide who used it on a lot of brownie's and he swore by it and I took his advice to heart. The brass is a bit spendy if you get Norma brass, but I understand you can use 338 WM brass for it. Only problem with the 358 NM is ammo, you'll need to reload with it. Not too much commercial stuff available. A good quality 225 Gr or 250 grainer is the best, probably the 250 for bear and the elk or moose I'd go with the 225 grains. I've been on 4 brown bear hunts of which 3 of them we had to go into the woods after them. One of the bear hunts, we had a bear cornered, his spine was broken and he was anchored pretty good so I wasn't too worried about a charge so we got pretty close to him. He took 7 rounds of 338 Win Mag with hot loaded 250 Gr Nosler Partitions at less than 35 yards before he expired and 2 rounds at 100 yards before he went into the woods so he had 9 rounds into him total. I also was talking to a local Juneau guide once in 1986 about a brownie a client had shot out on a spit of land, I was told it took 14 rounds of 375 H&H to put him down. Once their adrenaline gets pumping, there's no telling what they can do which is why you need to anchor them immediately. 338 WM, 375 or 358 NM or even a 350 Rem Mag is devastating on them if their adrenaline ain't pumpin. That first shot is so important. I've always been a 35 caliber fan and I've wondered if a 358 Winchester would take one but don't feel that lucky to try it.

I just used regular 358 norma factory ammo in mine.

I do have a box and a half left 20 rounds of 250 grain soft point semi pointed, and 9-10 rounds of 250 soft point. You interested?

Do you have a contact phone number for this new 'smith named Rick (located in Palmer)? Thanks - KMule

Kmule, yep, I'll have to get it tonight when I go home. He's on Scott Road or something like that. Business name starts with "Extreme" something. I'll let ya know.
choke.

Ak Dark Paladin:
Sent you an email.
choke

i shot my b.b. w/ a .340 wthby. mag. and 250 n.p., if i had not seen it with my own eyes, i would not beleive the punishment that this b.&c. bear took and still was able to run off.

4 fatal hits to the chest and a fifth running shot to the neck. given the situation , i feel that this caliber and load was the ideal choice for the situation and i still could not contol/keep this bear on the ground.

i can understand why, as mentioned above that some guys when returning to hunt b.b. use a bigger gun each time. u can't have enough respect for these animals, especially the over 10' boars as they are a different animal altogether. i felt going in, that the bear would have no chance against my howitzer w/o wheels, not so. the first shot is everthing. anyone of the 5 hits was fatal, but they can do alot before they expire. time stands still. i have this on video and it still amazes me to see it.

i think that the .358 norms mag. is also a good choice, better than the .350 rem.

stats;
sq; 10'10" laid flat on tarp , no stretch.
frt. paw 10"
stomach girth 81"
age; 25
battle scars; many
est. wt. 1,750
frt. claws 5 1/4"

cold zero

use the biggest gun u can shoot accurately

cold zero ----- Congratulations on a very nice Bear. The hunters that have not witnessed the real big Bears up close and personal really cannot appreciate how much punishment they can absorb and still be very lethal. They talk about the perfect shot from smaller rifles being able to kill anything that walks, however that perfect shot sometimes never comes, and it only takes once to do the damage. Good shooting.

Ak Dark Paladin,
I'll take em. Sent you an email.
Thanks,
choke

Cold Zero: Congrats also on the bear. Nice bear !! Mine was only 8.5 ft square. Hit him in the chest/shoulder area broadside with a 375 H&H Sako rifle at around 150 yards. It was my first bear and the longest shot I'd ever take on a bb. He ran into the woods and we went in there about a half hour later and found him dead about 50 yards in. Hit him in Cannery Cove area in Pybus Bay on Admiralty Island in May 1987 around where Scott Newman got mauled a couple weeks ago and there was another big bruhaha thread going on here.
Yep, you're right about calibers growing for bear. I'll stick with the 375 or 358 Norma Mag though at present. I would think the same thing, a 340 W-by Mag would definitely blow him a new asshole in his chest/shoulder area and kill him dead w/one shot. But after that 9 shot 338 WM incident I had, I know what you're talking about when you say they can take some punishment. They CAN soak up the lead.
choke

I don't hunt bears, but according to lots of bear hunters some bears drop fast, while others may not. For example, there was a guy near Anchorage in the early 80's who killed three grizzly bears during a charge with his .338WM and 250-grain Nosler bullets. He came upon four bears that were feeding on a moose carcass, one of the bears ran, and the rest charged. He killed two of the bears, and shot one on the shoulder to turn it, then reloaded one round and shot this last bear on the head at point blank. He used 5 rounds on three bears, and it was estimated that the five shots took not longer than 12 seconds. Over in "huntamerica," a hunter and his brother killed two brown bears in Russia, each with one shot from their .338's and 250-grain bullets.

The .338WM is a very popular cartridge in Alaska, up there with the .30-06 and the .300WM, and it is my favorite. However, in my opinion the .338WM is too close to the .375H&H unless one uses .375 bullets at least or heavier than 300 grains. For that reason alone, I feel that if one wants a "bear hunting" cartridge and thinks the .338WM is not enough gun, one would be wise to use one of the .416's with 400-grain bullets.

In other words, for bears a 338 (.338WM, .330 Dakota, .338RUM, etc.) with 250 to 275-grain A-Frame bullets should work, and so a .375H&H with 300-grain or heavier bullets. The next step would be one the .416's.