I apologize if this has been posted before but I thought it was interested given the recent thread on what should be used on bears. The article can be found here:

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingbu...n.hntbul8#cartridges

Cartridges of Alaska's Hunters – Too Much Gun?

As Southcentral hunters prepared for the 1999 hunting season Lee Rogers, rangemaster at the Alaska Department of Fish and Game's Rabbit Creek Range in Anchorage, conducted a survey of 1,848 Alaskan hunters. Rogers surveyed hunters to find out what cartridges Alaskan hunters are choosing for their big game hunting. According to Lee, hunters sighted in rifles using 70 different cartridges during the July to September survey.
The most popular cartridge with Southcentral hunters is the tried and true .30-06, used by 387 or 21 percent of hunters. The .30-06 was closely followed by the .300 Winchester Magnum with 342, and the .338 Winchester Magnum with 339. Lee says these three cartridges combined are used by almost six out of ten Southcentral hunters. There was a huge drop from the .338 Winchester to the next most popular cartridge, the 7mm Remington Magnum with 157 users.
Lee also looked at cartridges by caliber. The 30 caliber, for almost 60 years the choice of the U.S. military, boasted 912 users or almost exactly one-half of all hunters surveyed. The highly popular .30-06 and .300 Winchester Magnum are joined in this group by the .308 Winchester, .30-30, .307 Winchester, .300 Savage, .300 Weatherby Magnum, and the new .300 Remington Ultra Magnum.
Taking a distant second place were the cartridges using .338 diameter bullets. The increasingly popular .338 Winchester was joined in this group by the wildcat .338-06 and the .340 Weatherby Magnum. Almost one out of five hunters are using these medium-bore rifles for their big game hunting.
The third most popular caliber proved to be the 7mm. Led by the 7mm Remington Magnum, the 7mm clan had 202 users or about 1 of 10 Southcentral hunters. The 280 Remington, 7X57 Mauser, 7mm-08, and 7mm Shooting Times Westerner were used by a total of 42 hunters.
The classic Alaskan brown bear cartridge, the .375 H&H showed well, being used by 116 or 6.3 percent of all the hunters surveyed. Cartridges with the word “Magnum†in their name accounted for 1086 or 58.7 percent of all cartridges used.
This last statistic is the most interesting, according to Lee Rogers, who talks with and watches over 15,000 shooters each year. Many hunters, says Rogers, are uncomfortable with their loud, hard-recoiling magnums. Lee says that when a hunter is shooting a hard-kicking slobber-knocker" magnum, he or she often sights-in the rifle from a bench rest as quickly as possible and then packs up and leaves the range. Sometimes the hunter may even have to quit before the rifle is fully ready for the hunting fields.
To confirm his theory that too much gun frequently results in too little practice, Rogers conducted a short study on hunters' ability to shoot their rifles from hunting positions at game-sized targets. During the summer of 1999, Lee asked more than 80 hunters to chronograph their hunting loads to determine the actual velocity. Hunters sighted in their rifles under Lee's expert supervision on a secure, stable bench rest. After sighting in, hunters were asked to shoot three shots at the vital, heart-lung zone of a full-sized moose silhouette, standing broadside at a distance of 100 yards. The individuals in the study averaged 19 years of hunting experience.

Rogers says that less than one-half (46 percent) of hunters placed all three shots in the 16-inch by 24-inch vital zone. Twenty-eight percent of all shots taken would have wounded rather than immediately killed the moose. Most of the wounding shots are, in the opinion of Rogers, the result of too much gun and too little practice from the basic hunting positions of sitting, kneeling, and off-hand. Only about one out of ten hunters practices shooting from these hunting positions after sighting in their rifle, states rangemaster Rogers. This lack of practical practice, compounded by the use of a gun that is simply unpleasant to shoot, is likely to result in wounding and crippling animals. In a Department of Fish and Game telephone survey of Alaskan hunters, 38 percent said they had killed a big game animal that had been previously wounded by another hunter. According to Rogers, the results of this survey seem to confirm what he sees daily.
Do Alaskan hunters need these big-kicking magnums for big game? Not really, say most biologists, hunter educators, and experienced big game hunters. Big game animals are not killed by foot-pounds of kinetic energy or some mystical “knock-down†power. Big game is consistently, quickly, and humanely killed by accurate, precise placement of a well-constructed bullet in the vital heart-lung area. A cartridge loaded with a 180 grain Nosler (partition bullet) fired from the 94-year-old .30-06 will almost always pass completely through a moose or caribou, taking out both lungs. Rogers says that hunters should find a cartridge and gun they can shoot comfortably enough to fire 30 to 40 rounds during a practice session. After sighting in, all the hunter's practice should be from hunting positions likely to be used in the field.
Furthermore, when hunters chronograph their magnum factory loads they are often surprised they are getting so much buck and bang and so little gain. For example, during Roger's survey 15 hunters using .300 Winchester Magnum factory ammunition loaded with 180 grain bullets averaged 2,919 feet per second for 45 shots. Twelve different .30-06 rifles using factory ammunition loaded with 180-grain bullets chronographed 2,644 feet per second. See, some say, you get 275 feet per second difference! In the real world of hunting that works out to a gain of about 25 yards in range in exchange for easily one-third more recoil and a hefty increase in muzzle blast!
What about bears, hunters ask? Shouldn't Alaskan hunters have a magnum in case I have a run-in with 'ol fuzzy? Bear experts say that alertness in the field and keen observation skills are better protection than a magnum rifle. Analysis of bear encounters reveals the fact that most surprise encounters with a bear are just that, a surprise. Fortunately for bear and man, the bear usually swaps ends and runs away. In the rare event of a genuine charge the distance is typically measured in feet, and the hunter most likely carrying his rifle slung over the shoulder or in one hand. Under these circumstances he has no real chance to gather himself, ram a cartridge in the chamber and make an accurate, aimed shot at any vital area. In the even more unlikely event that the hunter is carrying his rifle “at-the-ready†and is able to take an aimed shot, a well-placed .30-06 will do more good than a poorly placed .300 or even .375 magnum. Most of us are simply better off hunting with a partner, remaining alert to bear sign, avoiding dense thickets where visibility is virtually zip, and quickly moving game meat away from the gut pile.
Hunters are responsible for wise use of our wildlife resource and using too much gun that results in wounded and crippled animals is not what we should aim for when we hunt.

I'm probably gonna catch some flack for this, but I know of very few people that can shoot a 300 magnum type rifle consistently. Now of course, the folks on AR aren't necessarily those people but this somewhat scientific study on the matter just proves the old adage "Put a decent bullet in the right place. That's all that matters."

Thanks pre war for digging this up. I know I was part of that survey but I was always the one who showed up with a differand gun every day.

Lee is a good guy and has his head on straight. I guess thats why he is in charge of A.D.F&G's hunter safty propgram. We've been friends for over 20 years now.

Very good article.

prairiegoat,
What are you talking about, us Alaskans use 300 mags like most people use 22's.
Seriouly you are probably right.
My first rifle purchase 40 years ago was a 300 wm so I know no less and I do shoot big bores a lot, but it really is an aquired taste (recoil).
As I'm matured I've come to believe in sectional density, proper velocity and most of all marksmanship.

.......

Pretty straightforward, if you can't shoot big ones you're stuck with little ones.

MTM,

That and whatever it is you shoot, get off the bench and practice. If it bites, shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot, accurately and confidently.

No matter what, after shooting nothing but .22's all winter (biathlon), this gave me a little reminder to get off my butt and practice with the big guns a bit. Thanks for posting.

Frans

Sound advice, I must get off more rounds from natural positions. Had to run up a hill, two seasons ago, covered in brash from logging operations to get the shot on the best CIC silver medal red stag on Scottish records. Made the shot but wouldn't bet on being able to repeat the performance...

I'd just like to add that the author is quite right about the practice from feid positions. I'm sure most could use a bunch more, myself included. Luckily I only use big guns so everything I shoot kicks. Recoil isn't a problem but hitting where I'm aiming can always be improved on. As to gun size, I've walked by a freshly burried Elk kill on my flagged trail, the 375 Ackley I was packing didn't seem like overkill at all.

Range Master needs to get off the range, and away from the range groupies. Here's a 416 Taylor, 170 yards, field position... video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgsG4fZNJDQ

Probably somewhere near his 16x24 inch target range.

Thanks for posting the vid BW ..Thats what I,m talking about ......Perhaps it is too humane a kill for the small bore enthusiasts .........The Black bears that Bushler shoots don,t react the same way ,, kindof can,t I guess because they are shot with a little rifle .........Its the difference between Whomp there it is and whap there it goes .. ,

That was a clean one, however I'm not saying the smaller bore rifles don't work, I'm saying that big bores can be shot with accuracy.

As far as 'Bushler'... he was running the video camera on that one.

It's a good article in that it tells of the most popular cartridges in Alaska.

Now, assumptions relating to "some folks not being able to shoot Magnum rifles" are just that, because some folks can't shoot non-magnum rifles, either. Just look around the shooting range the next time you are there.

Nice shot on that bear! Congratulations!

The guns in use aren't surprising to me. It is important to remember (and completely overlooked by gun writers) that we are not the only ones out there hunting.

Your 243 may be perfect for Blacktails.....but do you really want to use it on Kodiak?

I know it is an extreme example, but I recommend you consider both what you are hunting and what you may run into, and choose a gun you are both comfortable and competent with.

Just my .02.....

Cheers,

Dan

Brian,

Lee's a good shot and a good hunter, he mostly uses a 35 whelen. He spends plenty of time away from the range, actually he hasn't workeed at the range for many years.

A more legitimate question is, does the average Alaskan hunter have sufficient shooting skills, and the answer is a sad no.

I shoot quite a bit at Rabbit Creek, and there are some downright pathetic shots, even off the bench with the gun on sandbags.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
A more legitimate question is, does the average Alaskan hunter have sufficient shooting skills, and the answer is a sad no.

I shoot quite a bit at Rabbit Creek, and there are some downright pathetic shots, even off the bench with the gun on sandbags.

Now Now, Anc may have the highest concentration of hunters but they are not average Alaska Hunters
Had the boat wet yet Paul? Kings in Seward or Homer!! Have done well in Homer so far.

Practise makes perfect but it takes lots of sustained practise not just a trip to the range once before heading out to hunt.When we had our private range I practised 3 or more days per week at 100 to 500+ yards with 06's & 300wm so I could hit my target ,we lost the range so now I only have a range with 200 yards max so I don't take 500 to 600 yard shots.

.......In an effort at fairness I reread the initial post again and I have to say I think my first post on this thread was correct but , I can,t talk about it right now ...

I practiced today , went out with a 375 Ruger and shot a stump .. 3 shots ,off hand @ 52 paces as close as I could pace ,, just shooting bout half way up a buckskin Hemlock stump with the express sights with factory 300 gr solids .....You can cover the holes with a folded dollar bill..... Impacts were about 4 "low ...Need to try the 270 gr ammo to see if it shoots to the sights.....Going to the range to shoot 30 or 40 rounds is fun but VERY UNNECESSARY ..........

Saying people should shoot a smaller caliber so they can shoot alot is like saying we should elect democrats ..........Its just wrong thinking ....

Prewar70-I presume by your handle that you either have a prewar m70 or like something about them. Me to on both accounts. Might I ask what winchester you have in this arrangement and whether your safety is left or right mounted. Is it a large wing safety that is 3 position but not with positive clicks at each safety stage? Thanks, Life is good, Boltaction sorry, this was intended to be a private message. I'm not familiar with this format. Thanks.

Don't get to this forum too often but just happened to check and saw this. I have a weakness for prewar 70s and have several in various configurations including Super Grade and carbine, 22 hornet to 375 h&h. All are wing style safeties as you mentioned.

quote:

Bear experts say that alertness in the field and keen observation skills are better protection than a magnum rifle.

I carry a Big Stick cuz my bare feet, fists and boots ain't worth shit when that bear is upon me.

quote:

In the even more unlikely event that the hunter is carrying his rifle “at-the-ready†and is able to take an aimed shot, a well-placed .30-06 will do more good than a poorly placed .300 or even .375 magnum.

Well golly, I never heard that one before . . .

quote:

Most of us are simply better off hunting with a partner, remaining alert to bear sign, avoiding dense thickets where visibility is virtually zip, and quickly moving game meat away from the gut pile.

Most folks are better off staying on the couch at home.

Can't avoid dense brush where I hunt. Also can't move bigger animals very easy there Sherlock.

quote:

Hunters are responsible for wise use of our wildlife resource and using too much gun that results in wounded and crippled animals is not what we should aim for when we hunt.

And who exactly "aims" for this when hunting???

Cut my teeth shooting a 12 gauge and 300 Winny.

Never crippled anything with my .375. Done a lot of crumpling though!!!

Too much gun IMO is 416 Rigby, 458 Lott, 378 Wby, etc.

Bad shooters are bad shooters no matter what they have in their hands.

IMO, too much gun is better than no gun at all.

I wouldn't feel bad if all I had was a .458 Lott.

Namibiahunter

It is a very good article with a ton of common sense information.
The only part that I disagree with is the number of practice shots.
I do not think it is needed nor wise to shoot that many at a sitting from your hunting rifle.
Fewer practice shots with as much effort as you can muster into each and every one is far more beneficial.
I can handle 30 with an 06 in a session no problem.
30 with 340 Wby is something else entirely.
That does not mean that I can't shoot a 340 just as well for 3 shots however.
Acculumated flinch starts to build on the big bangers after about a half dozen.
There is nothing that a person can do about it except fight it, and then that just makes it worse for the next time.
The only cure then is to erase or replace the memory with lots of small caliber volume fire, a brick of 22's is about the best thing I know of.
But who the hell needs to shoot that many rounds from his cannon?
Learn how to shoot with the small calibers, build your tolerance as best you can while moving up in caliber and stop when you cannot consistently place three shots in a snuff can using field positions at a hundred yards.

If you can't do that then back down in caliber and practice diligently until you can.

But again in my opinion you are far better served by taking far fewer shots but putting far more mental prep and follow through into it.
Lots of volume is not good with any caliber without discipline.
Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

And too many big whacks to your nervous system in too short a period of time WILL MAKE YOU FLINCH..
Don't care who you are.

As I said before, some people just can't shoot, and it isn't a matter of big gun vs. little gun. If you flinch and miss, it's a flinch and a miss.

Shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well, and shoot it well.

Paul I agree, there are folks who can't hit a bull in the ass with a handful of gravel.
There are also a lot of folks who actually "could" shoot if they had just a bit of real world training and proper practice.
Hunters should not shoot off bags another shot once they have their rig dialed in.
From that point on it is ONLY field positions allowed.
I have often taken friends of mine out to help them get ready for a hunt and one of my favorite drills is to randomly pick the most advantageous field position in 5 seconds or less.
We will be walking in the hills and I will say ok, there is an elk going out that pass to your left "get on him"
Basically it amounts to what is available, it trains them to run the situation through their head in an effective manner.
What is available? tree limb? rock? prone? sitting? kneeling? how far away, moving how fast? how much time left until no shot?
This is one reason why I advocate using a walking stick at least as tall as the person.
A quick sit on a heel with the other knee bent and elbow resting on kneecap and a firm grip on the stick supporting the fore end,,, damn I ran out of air..

But I have seen so damn many people that I swear actually do believe that in the moment of truth there is going to be a bench and sandbags miraculously appear.
So for what it is worth, I repeat that after a person has things dialed they should never sit down at a bench again.
Unless they are working on something specific like trigger control.
Benches are for paper punchers.
The dirt, the rocks, the trees, the sticks are the benches of the hunter.

Just watch the "hunting" shows these days.

The only way 95% of the "hunters" can get a shot off is if they have a pair of shooting sticks.

I don't think I ever seen anyone on an African safari not shoot from a set.

I haven't hunted Africa, but I don't see a problem with the shooting sticks. My understanding is most areas have tall grass, so one either shoots from sticks, or offhand. Most folks simply don't have the skills to shoot offhand. I can see the guides not wanting to chase wounded animals, so they carry the sticks to keep the clients on target.

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
I don't think I ever seen anyone on an African safari not shoot from a set.

I've seen Saeed shoot freehand plenty of times in his videos. And after a brisk stalk to boot.

quote:

.300 Winchester Magnum factory ammunition loaded with 180 grain bullets averaged 2,919 feet per second for 45 shots. Twelve different .30-06 rifles using factory ammunition loaded with 180-grain bullets chronographed 2,644 feet per second. See, some say, you get 275 feet per second difference! In the real world of hunting that works out to a gain of about 25 yards in range.

How do they figure? An extra 275 fps means the 300's bullet will have traveled an additional 91 yards before the bullet hits the ground. According to physics, both bullets will hit the ground at the same time, the 300 simply covers more ground in the allotted time frame.

I believe once you've really msstered rifle shooting you can get by with less practice. Unfortunately even that wears off after time (as I can attest). I used to shoot over 1500 rounds a year through my 270. (It's on it's second barrel now). I had a friend in Montana who had been a Marine sniper and we would shoot together every week if the weather was nice, standing, sitting, kneeling, with sling and without, at steel targets on chains from 100 to 600 yards, but that was 30 years ago. I'm lucky to shoot 300 rounds a year these days and my accuracy and ability to get on target as quickly as I used to has suffered some. I'm shooting more now because my boys are into it which is really nice so I'm getting some of it back. Offhand at 200 yards and up has always been hard and isn't getting any easier for me. My sniper friend, that's another matter, 5 rapid fire shots from off hand at 600 yards all in the X ring. I learned a lot but it could be pretty depressig lol. I don't think shooting the 375 H&H is any harder to shoot accurately than my 270, except that it's a bit muzzle heavy which I'm going to get fixed one way or another. It does cut down on my practice a bit, I don't find myself wanting to shoot 200 rounds in a day, 50 is about max.


Chuck

As a former public rangemaster and a lifelong range shooter I have observed that almost no shooters are competent with rifles of .300 Win.and up. The only exceptions are some of the few full fledged gun nuts I have known and the more serious highpower rifle competition shooters.

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
Just watch the "hunting" shows these days.

The only way 95% of the "hunters" can get a shot off is if they have a pair of shooting sticks.

I don't think I ever seen anyone on an African safari not shoot from a set.

I've shot off sticks to 300 yds with my .375 and offhand, also, with it and the 7mm. Long shot in the kneeling postition ofn a gemsbok and fifty offhand standing at a blesbok and everything in between.

You're right that most hunters do not practice enough for field conditions. At least, that's what various guides and PH's have told me. Also knowing how to change sight adjustment for a long range shot and knowing the exterior ballistics of the cartridge you're using really should be a necessity.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
I don't think I ever seen anyone on an African safari not shoot from a set.

I've seen Saeed shoot freehand plenty of times in his videos. And after a brisk stalk to boot.

.

Ya and he shoots a Wildcat 375 , and he really consistantly hits where he plans on . Magin that . .. What the heck , I,ll just keep diggin ..

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
I don't think I ever seen anyone on an African safari not shoot from a set.

I've seen Saeed shoot freehand plenty of times in his videos. And after a brisk stalk to boot.

Saeed is not the average African hunter He is a phenominal shot, and puts alot of rounds down range. In the 2004 olympics his brother took the gold medal for double trap. I believe Saeed is at least as good a shot as his brother.